GostHacked Posted February 2, 2015 Report Posted February 2, 2015 How is that possible without a single Jewish person in Gaza? I'd say more of a free range open air prison. Quote
jbg Posted February 2, 2015 Report Posted February 2, 2015 I'd say more of a free range open air prison.If the residents weren't at war with Israel would Israel maintain those conditions? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
GostHacked Posted February 2, 2015 Report Posted February 2, 2015 If the residents weren't at war with Israel would Israel maintain those conditions? Yes. Quote
Hudson Jones Posted February 2, 2015 Report Posted February 2, 2015 How is that possible without a single Jewish person in Gaza? You need to understand the meaning of occupation under international law. Once you do, then you would understand why Israel is considered an occupier. Start by reading the link below, from an Israeli human rights organization which references international law. The Gaza Strip - Israel's obligations under international law Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
jacee Posted February 2, 2015 Report Posted February 2, 2015 If the Gazans freely elected Hamas of course I do. As Obama once said "elections have consequences." If the Gazan people chose a path of unremitting war by electing Hamas they share the blame. Gazans elect protection from Israeli aggression. . Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 2, 2015 Report Posted February 2, 2015 Gazans elect protection from Israeli aggression. . How's that working out so far ? More...or less..."aggression" ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Hudson Jones Posted February 3, 2015 Report Posted February 3, 2015 How's that working out so far ? More...or less..."aggression" ? Would you have the same message to the Jews in Auschwitz to not fight back against the Germans, knowing that they were facing a military 100 times or more powerful? Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
dre Posted February 3, 2015 Report Posted February 3, 2015 If the Gazans freely elected Hamas of course I do. Same goes with Israelis that voted for Likud... a party that has the conquest of all palestinian terrority west of the Jordan as part of its constitution. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
jacee Posted February 3, 2015 Report Posted February 3, 2015 How's that working out so far ? More...or less..."aggression" ? Are you suggesting no protection would be better? Israeli aggression exists regardless. Israel's reputation and credibility are much reduced due to the overreactive aggression. . Quote
Bonam Posted February 3, 2015 Report Posted February 3, 2015 Are you suggesting no protection would be better?. Hamas provides the opposite of "protection". It deliberately endangers its own people to further its own political agenda. Quote
jacee Posted February 3, 2015 Report Posted February 3, 2015 Hamas provides the opposite of "protection". It deliberately endangers its own people to further its own political agenda. Ya you got the propaganda down pat. :/They wouldn't be in danger if Israel wasn't bombing and killing thousands of them. . Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 3, 2015 Report Posted February 3, 2015 Israel's reputation and credibility are much reduced due to the overreactive aggression. . No, I think they are enhanced. Launch rockets...get bombed. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted February 3, 2015 Report Posted February 3, 2015 No, I think they are enhanced. Launch rockets...get bombed. Hell ya. its the merikan way dont cha know. Always a laugh. Quote
Rue Posted February 3, 2015 Author Report Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) Post 32 from Hudson Jones is a classic example of holocaust inversion-the tactic of equating Israel as a Nazi state engaging in a holocaust against Gaza citizens. The tactic has nothing to do with the thread but provides an excellent example of how Hudson Jones will invoke the memory and despair of holocaust survivors to demonize Jews under the pretext of responding to the thread. Edited February 3, 2015 by Rue Quote
Rue Posted February 3, 2015 Author Report Posted February 3, 2015 Jacee you live ina selective fantasy world. Gaza citizens are as much in danger from the Muslim extremists who control them, i.e., Hamas, Intifada as any imaginary Zionist demon you think is there only enemy. Interesting. For someone who falsely stated I blame Gaza citizens for their plight your fantasy continues that they live with their beloved Hamas and their sole problem is Israel existing. Quote
marcus Posted February 3, 2015 Report Posted February 3, 2015 How is that possible without a single Jewish person in Gaza? Why didn't you read what I shared with you so you would understand the meaning of occupation under international law and wouldn't be puzzled like this? Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
marcus Posted February 3, 2015 Report Posted February 3, 2015 Hamas provides the opposite of "protection". It deliberately endangers its own people to further its own political agenda. That's the line that the Israeli propaganda machine says and people like you keep repeating. Why don't you look at report after report from various human rights groups and other international expert groups showing how it is Israel who is mostly responsible for the deaths of Gazans? Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
Rue Posted February 4, 2015 Author Report Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) That's the line that the Israeli propaganda machine says and people like you keep repeating. Why don't you look at report after report from various human rights groups and other international expert groups showing how it is Israel who is mostly responsible for the deaths of Gazans? The line your anti Israeli propaganda machine says and people like you keep repeating is that Hamas is not responsible for the death Of Gaza citizens and interestingly while you call attention to various human rights groups and other international expert groups, you fail to say they have held Hamas just as responsible if not more so. Not in your world. You just selectively blame it all on Israel. The moral principle here is very clear. Hamas who initiated the physical force is morally responsible for the destructive consequences of the retaliatory force it thereby necessitated. However in your fantasy world, Hamas can initiate a war, attack Israel and its citizens but if Israel tries to stop that attack, its morally responsible not Hamas. You wish to pretend Hamas is not responsible for its actions and blame it all on Israel. Let's restate the absurdity of your post. You would have us believe that If a thug grabs a woman and tries to shove her into a van, and the woman pulls a gun from her purse and shoots at the thug, thereby killing the thug and an innocent bystander behind him, she is morally responsible for the bystander’s death and the thug's. Or if you wish we can go with Hudson Jones' analogy. A women who is raped has no right to defend herself from further attacks by men. If she defends herself she becomes a rapist. The two of you are of course brilliant with your analysis. Neither of you can acknowlede because your script and biases won't allow it, that the extent of retaliatory force warranted in a given situation by Israel against Hamas is dependent on what they initiate. Not you two. The point of the matter remains Hamas is morally responsible for the harm caused by retaliatory force from Israel. If it did not choose to attack Israel there would be no retaliation. Hamas is morally responsible for all the deaths and all the destruction resulting from the retaliatory force necessitated by Hamas’s assaults on Israel. Suspending logic, common sense and the basic precepts of moral responsibility to ignore Hamas and try blame Israel as if it operates in a vacuum and attacks Hamas for no reason is your script. Its tired, its old, and you have repeated it ad nauseum. Here you go Marcus. Get Jacee and H Jones and sit around and discuss this-imagine that even the Palestinian Authority disagrees with you. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/182837#.VNKbfTYo4zd Edited February 4, 2015 by Rue Quote
marcus Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 Rue: You are wrong. You can keep repeating that Hamas is responsible for the 1500+ civilians that Israel killed until you're blue in the face, but it's not going to change reality and it's not going to change the conclusions from several independent reports from reputable organizations conducted after the three wars that Israel has waged on Gaza in the past 7 years. The reports clearly outline how and why Israel was responsible for pretty much all of the deaths and destruction in Gaza. Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 5, 2015 Report Posted February 5, 2015 I wish the "reports" were a little more timely....for Israel's bomb damage assessment (BDA) and future strike mission planning. C'mon reputable organizations...do a better job ! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Rue Posted February 5, 2015 Author Report Posted February 5, 2015 Marcus The reality is in any conflict including the above, there are a wide series of causal chains in complex situations that are long, multiple and intersecting. Your script and agenda deliberately ignores any cause and effect because it can not acknowledge what Hamas initiates because it can not allow you to aclnowledge Hamas responsible or liable or morally culpable for any of its actions. Necessarily your tatic of only selecting Israel for criticism and demonization omits to look at the full conflict. Necessarily your criticism is inconsistent in that it holds Israel responsible but not Hamas. The very fact you even use a term "like you are wrong" speaks to your lack of logic. There is no right or wrong. All there is, is your opinion and mine. You criticize Israel but you will not criticize Hamas, I criticize both. You question Israel's right to defend its existence and state, but not the Palestinian's rights in both regards, while I consider both as having equal rights to exist and have states. You lump all Israelis into your blame of Israeli military responses, I do not blame Palestinians for the actions of Hamas. You make a claim that Israel is bound by the rules of morality but will not hold Hamas to the same standard and justify that double standard by using the rationalization that Gazans are oppressed. I argue both peoples are bound by the same moral code and neither has the right to engage in terrorism. What you continue to refuse to respond to and can't because your script won't allow you to is this and simply this; Hamas chooses through violence to try take back all of Israel. If it was interested in peace, it would not shoot missiles, it would not uphold a constitution calling for the murder of Jews worldwide and the violent forced seizure of Israel to be assimilated into a Muslim state and it would not as ithas done deliberately place its civilians in harm's way to die to achieve what it thinks is a public relations victory by spilling their blood. You won't comment on its war crimes on its people and Israel, the fact that the Arab League and PA have accused it of war crimes as do the very same organizations you ambiguously quote but won't specify. You can't. You know those same rights groups criticize Hamas as much as they do Israel. Quote
marcus Posted February 8, 2015 Report Posted February 8, 2015 Marcus The reality is in any conflict including the above, there are a wide series of causal chains in complex situations that are long, multiple and intersecting. All taken into consideration by The Red Cross, Amnesty International, The Goldstone Report, Btselem, and several other organizations and reports. They take into consideration all of the complexities. These reports all point to Israel's indiscriminate attacks, using Palestinians as human shields, executions and number of other war crimes. Hamas has also been criticized and rightfully so, for their indiscriminate rocket attacks. But their actions are just a drop in a bucket compared to what Israel has done and continues to do. Israel is a criminal state and it will be stopped. Not by Western governments, but by the people around the world. Similar to what happened to the criminal Apartheid government in South Africa. Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
jacee Posted February 8, 2015 Report Posted February 8, 2015 Rue Israel has gone way beyond its right to defend its state, far into the war crimes territory of targeting innocent people and firstresponders and extremist overreaction to minimal threats. Palestine can defend its actions due to the occupation and oppression. Israel's actions aggressively enforce the occupation and control, and can't be defended. . Quote
-TSS- Posted February 8, 2015 Report Posted February 8, 2015 There could be an independent Palestinian state but there will never be a partition of Jerusalem. That is the main obstacle to peace. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 8, 2015 Report Posted February 8, 2015 ...Palestine can defend its actions due to the occupation and oppression. Israel's actions aggressively enforce the occupation and control, and can't be defended. . Really ? Murdering Olympic athletes can be defended? Highjackings and suicide bombings can be defended ? Rocket attacks can be defended ? Terror tunnels can be defended ? Hell...then anything can be defended....including Israeli actions. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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