'Young people these days ...'

[jacee]

We've had this conversation here before and I think it warrants revisiting.

I'm a boomer, retired. No millenials live in my basement. But my urban neighbourhood consists largely of boomers enjoying retirement and the millenials with degrees who serve our lunch and coffee and provide other services for low wages with little job security and often large student loans. They live collectively or with parents and can only dream of someday paying off their student loans so they can afford a place of their own. They see few career prospects, can't imagine ever being able to afford having a family, just get by.

Selected quotes from this article and the comments to it seem a reasonable place to start.

/our_responsibilities_to_young_people

The population has never just magically had the skills that are necessary to make the economy work, but up until the 80s, companies actually invested in their employees. They trained them, nurtured them and provided them with secure, full-time employment. That's not the case with my generation - we're expected to either have the full, exact skill set that the employer wants or we're expected to go out and acquire that skill set either at our own expense (by returning to school) or by working for free. And even if you do have the skill set required, you're still likely to only be offered a contract - no benefits and no security included.

...

So we expect our hungry young people to work for free or very little in positions where they may well be at the mercy of harassers like one former CBC personality whom we won't dignify by naming, or in jobs where they are considered so disposable that no one is looking out for their physical safety.

...

While adult children stay in their parents' basements, the parents CAN'T RETIRE and make way for the new generation. We have to keep working, so it becomes a vicious circle.

...

There's no reason that passively earning capital gains, say by owning a share of a public corporation, is inherently better or more valuable to society than earning a wage from one's labour. Yet we tax the capital gain at half the rate we tax the earned income. ...

One concept that sounds interesting to help youth succeed is a lifetime income exemption - for example the first $500,000 someone earns in their lifetime would be exempt from tax - similar to the old capital gains exemption but applied to all forms of earnings including wages.

I think that last one is a great idea, along with FREE POSTSECONDARY TUITION (and forgiveness of that portion of current student debt) to reduce the debt burden of young people starting out, and increase to CPP contributions instead, to secure retirements and reduce tax burden on others in later years.

Just throwing out ideas ... others?

.

[TimG]

They trained them, nurtured them and provided them with secure, full-time employment.

It was a two way street - employees stuck with their employers so employers benefited by the investment. But successive waves of corporate downsizing have shown people that companies cannot be depended on. As a result employees no longer have the loyalty to their employers that they once did and any employer provided training is likely used to get a better job - so employers do not want to invest. It is a catch-22 that is not going to go away.

There's no reason that passively earning capital gains, say by owning a share of a public corporation, is inherently better or more valuable to society than earning a wage from one's labour. Yet we tax the capital gain at half the rate we tax the earned income.

Investing comes with a risk. You can lose money as easily as gain. The lower taxation reflects that risk. Interest income is taxed like employment income because there is no risk.

One concept that sounds interesting to help youth succeed is a lifetime income exemption - for example the first $500,000 someone earns in their lifetime would be exempt from tax - similar to the old capital gains exemption but applied to all forms of earnings including wages.

Except it would be used up when young and in very low tax brackets. It would provide the most benefit to people making large amounts of money early in life. There are better uses for the money.

FREE POSTSECONDARY TUITION

A bad idea. Giving stuff away for free leads to an increase in demand which, in turn, leads to rationing of the supply. Tuition should be subsidized but not free. Edited December 3, 2014 by TimG

[overthere]

Nothing stops well educated millenials, without children or mortgages, from simply packing up and moving to a place in Canada where there is employment. My generation did it. I did it twice. Millions of immigrants did it and do it.

Oh, and Canadian graduates have miniscule student loans compared to the financial benefit they derive from their degrees. Surely, being intelligent people they would have calculated the cost/benefits prior to choosing a career and attending university, and by graduating have purchased the tools to really make that degree pay for itself and then some.

[Argus]

We continue to have shortages of mechanics, construction trades workers, oil field workers, and in certain mining occupations. None of these require degrees, but they do involve physical labour - which a lot of young people think is beneath them these days.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Argus

[jacee]

It was a two way street - employees stuck with their employers so employers benefited by the investment. But successive waves of corporate downsizing have shown people that companies cannot be depended on. As a result employees no longer have the loyalty to their employers that they once did and any employer provided training is likely used to get a better job - so employers do not want to invest. It is a catch-22 that is not going to go away.

That's an interesting perspective, Tim.

The 'downsizing' movement came with a cost in loss of employee loyalty.

Are employers seeking to improve that in any effective ways do you think?

One point made in the op article is the need for employers to act as mentors, teaching training and guiding young people in their organizations.

Is loyalty to an employer one of the "soft skills" that employers are complaining is lacking?

What can employers do about that?

Are they doing it?

.

[bush_cheney2004]

Lots of "millenials" from other countries don't have nearly as much of a problem finding work. I guess they are more motivated.....

[jacee]

Nothing stops well educated millenials, without children or mortgages, from simply packing up and moving to a place in Canada where there is employment. My generation did it. I did it twice. Millions of immigrants did it and do it.

'Alberta' used to be the easy answer, not so much now with oil prices falling and oil and pipeline development stalling.

Where are these places with jobs now?

eta

Another interesting point: Today's situation is unique not because of anything to do with millenials themselves, but because of employers cutting entry-level jobs:

But in an effort to cut costs, some companies also have cut entry-level jobs that serve as a crucial first step on the path to a professional career. And others have made the responsibilities for first-timers more sophisticated, raising the bar for new graduates, who are expected to arrive job-ready from day one.

7-reasons-why-millennials-are-unemployed-and-living-at-home

Edited December 3, 2014 by jacee

[overthere]

Alberta, Saskatchewan, BC all have jobs for the motivated.

Where did you get the idea that Alberta has suddenly shut down?

Every generation faces work challenges, and the response is or should be the same: Help yourself.

Society is not to blame for a poor career choice or an unwillingness to adapt.

[bush_cheney2004]

Alberta, Saskatchewan, BC all have jobs for the motivated.

Where did you get the idea that Alberta has suddenly shut down?

Every generation faces work challenges, and the response is or should be the same: Help yourself.

Society is not to blame for a poor career choice or an unwillingness to adapt.

I agree...get off your ass and go to work. Hourly pay rate is secondary to developing a work ethic at a very young age. Whiners get left behind.

[Wilber]

We continue to have shortages of mechanics, construction trades workers, oil field workers, and in certain mining occupations. None of these require degrees, but they do involve physical labour - which a lot of young people think is beneath them these days.

Yup, its a fine thing to actually be able to build and fix things. On the other hand, the labour market has changed, there were all kinds of decent paying entry level jobs when I got out of high school. Not any more.

[jacee]

Alberta, Saskatchewan, BC all have jobs for the motivated.

Where did you get the idea that Alberta has suddenly shut down?

Who said "shutting down"?

I said development - which was intending to really ramp up - is now slowing down.

IE, There won't be as many new drill sites or pipelines as imagined ... due to both falling prices and opposition, I think.

[jacee]

Yup, its a fine thing to actually be able to build and fix things. On the other hand, the labour market has changed, there were all kinds of decent paying entry level jobs when I got out of high school. Not any more.

Interesting ... a lack of entry level jobs ... I hadn't heard that arise in previous discussions.

Puts a new light on the issue.

.

[Wilber]

Interesting ... a lack of entry level jobs ... I hadn't heard that arise in previous discussions.

Puts a new light on the issue.

.

I said decent paying entry level jobs. When I started out as a maintenance planing clerk for an airline, guys I knew were going to work in lumber mills making over three times what I was, right off the street. Of course, those jobs are long gone.

[jacee]

I said decent paying entry level jobs. When I started out as a maintenance planing clerk for an airline, guys I knew were going to work in lumber mills making over three times what I was, right off the street. Of course, those jobs are long gone.

Right.

Well this article suggests entry level jobs are scarce - got cut in the downsizing.

They suggest 7 reasons why millenials are unemployed and living with parents:

1. The rise of the unpaid internship

2. Entry level jobs are scarce

3. The paradox of needing experience to get a job

4. Incomes are down, costs are up

5. Baby boomers are not retiring

6. Crippling student loans

7. The 'go after your dreams' philosophy

Edited December 3, 2014 by jacee

[Wilber]

Right.

Well this article suggests entry level jobs are scarce - got cut in the downsizing.

They suggest 7 reasons why millenials are unemployed and living with parents:

1. The rise of the unpaid internship

2. Entry level jobs are scarce

3. The paradox of needing experience to get a job

4. Incomes are down, costs are up

5. Baby boomers are not retiring

6. Crippling student loans

7. The 'go after your dreams' philosophy

I wouldn't dispute that.Technology has also killed a lot jobs in many industries.

[bush_cheney2004]

I wouldn't dispute that.Technology has also killed a lot jobs in many industries.

Agreed....industrial floor scrubbers have replaced buckets and mops...but they still won't do the work for minimum pay. So somebody else does.

[Wilber]

Agreed....industrial floor scrubbers have replaced buckets and mops...but they still won't do the work for minimum pay. So somebody else does.

I was thinking more about things like ATM's, online banking, robots in manufacturing etc.

[Boges]

I blame the internet.

Millenials love the internet but the internet has crippled so many industries to a point where there just aren't jobs in them anymore.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Boges

[bush_cheney2004]

I blame the internet.

I would agree that the Internet has provided a myriad of non-productive distractions to fill the void of unemployment. These kids will never get calluses on their hands, unless you can get them from using a video game controller.

Edited December 4, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[Big Guy]

I believe that the greatest and most rewarding investment that any nation can make is in the education of its youth. I spent many years in the Ontario Secondary and Post Secondary school systems and was (and still am) appalled at the number of young people who are unable to achieve their goals because they lack the funds.

Yes, intelligent young people might survive to graduate from University with enormous debt but many brilliant minds are being wasted to poverty and crime. The same characteristics which make successful drug dealers and gang leaders also make successful businessmen and community leaders.

I agree with jacee about public financial support for good students. I would suggest that any student attaining 80% or better, every year from grade 12 on through to graduation be supported (according to need) as to living expenses and tuition fees - not as a loan but as a yearly grant. Having any part time job impacts on academic performance. One would be surprised at the number of students who have to work 20 or more hours a week to help at home.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Big Guy

[overthere]

Who said "shutting down"?

I said development - which was intending to really ramp up - is now slowing down.

IE, There won't be as many new drill sites or pipelines as imagined ... due to both falling prices and opposition, I think.

<20% of Alberta GDP comes from resource extraction.

There are still many jobs here. And elsewhere, if a person if willing to work.

Part of the problem with millenials is that jobs that require sweat or getting your hands dirty, at any pay level, are not of interest. You can easily earn $70k driving a big truck. There is a shortage of drivers now, and it will get much worse. However, that anthropology degree will not command the respect you imagined it would when you were partying your way through four years at university.

[Bonam]

<20% of Alberta GDP comes from resource extraction.

There are still many jobs here. And elsewhere, if a person if willing to work.

Part of the problem with millenials is that jobs that require sweat or getting your hands dirty, at any pay level, are not of interest. You can easily earn $70k driving a big truck. There is a shortage of drivers now, and it will get much worse.

Vapid generalizations about generations aside, driving a truck is not a good career choice. Truck driving will be automated (self-driving) within ~10 years.

[overthere]

I spent many years in the Ontario Secondary and Post Secondary school systems and was (and still am) appalled at the number of young people who are unable to achieve their goals because they lack the funds.

I don't see that here. LOans and grants are readily available for students from low income families for post secondary education.

The same funds are not found for people who wish to enter the trades, or for young entrepreneurs

[overthere]

Vapid generalizations about generations aside, driving a truck is not a good career choice. Truck driving will be automated (self-driving) within ~10 years.

You'd have to speak to the OP about vapid generalizations about millenials, it's her topic.

No, truck driving will not be automated in 10 years, Mr Jetson.

And why would you oppose a millenial grad eaving the part time work at Starbucks, which is the scenario proposed in the OP, when there is an immediate job for good bucks available right now? Or is it the requirement to give up the real career, which is being a whiny urban hipster living in the parents basement?

[TimG]

Vapid generalizations about generations aside, driving a truck is not a good career choice. Truck driving will be automated (self-driving) within ~10 years.

I was thought this would be the case until I heard about the tech that is necessary for these self driving car pilots projects. These cars can only run on routes that have been pre-mapped in detail (much greater detail that what a GPS has) and any variation, such as construction, can cause the navigation program to fail. This tech has a long way to go before it can match the adaptability of a human driver.