Remembrance Day Contemplation

[cybercoma]

So... since the war to end all wars didn't, we shouldn't have any military in protest?

So....since you either don't understand or have no argument for what I'm saying you're going to create a strawman?

[cybercoma]

How can we honour people who have dedicated themselves to what they saw as a just cause in a clear way, so that we're all doing it ? How about a red poppy with a peace button ?

I've already said before that there should be a separate Veterans' Day that is not Remembrance Day. Today should be left to remember the gravity of the first World War.

[Derek 2.0]

Today should be left to remember the gravity of the first World War.

Why do you feel that?

[cybercoma]

You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Remembrance Day isn't an insult to those who served. Only people on the far far far far fringes of society think in that perverted way.

I'm entitled to my own opinion, except you feel the need to tell me my opinion is wrong? What was that you were saying about nuance? Sorry it's not black and white enough for you, but in my opinion, lumping in all veterans with the remembrance of those who died in World War I takes away from the meaning and purpose of Remembrance Day. It downplays the gravity of what happened during that war and why it has been called The War to End All Wars. If you don't like my opinion on the matter, too bad. Get over it.

Edited November 11, 2014 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

Agreed, and well said. It's not like Remembrance is the only message that gets subverted and reused for political purposes. Many positive things also have that happen, and patriotism in all its forms is just one.

Is it wrong to wave the Canadian flag ? Does it symbolize oppression and murder or is it something more complex - not so black-and-white ?

What about the cross ? The swastika ? Some symbols are clearer, and more odious than others are.

Who's trying to stop Remembrance Day from existing? Why do you fall for this BS? No one, at least no one sane, is trying to put an end to Remembrance Day. Quit buying into the ridiculous strawman that Shady and others have built.

[Mighty AC]

What about the cross ? The swastika ? Some symbols are clearer, and more odious than others are.

Good point about symbolism. Though, it brings up a question I was thinking about today.

Should the local legion ceremonies be so blatantly Christian focused these days? A good chunk of the military and the attending crowd identify as either non-religious or as part of another religion. I attend to show support but when every second reading is a Christian prayer the message is a little off putting.

I'm not saying I'm offended, just that the message of remembrance and thanks can get lost in the religious chatter. First of all, if you are Christian, imagine if every second speech gave thanks to positive chi and the universal life force. That's how meaningless these things feel for non-Christians. Second, are we here to remember and thank military personnel or Jesus/God? Again, my perspective is that of a non-Christian, but thanking a deity for freedom that has been won at the cost of countless lives, comes off very disrespectful.

I know that's not the intent, but I think the relevance of these ceremonies would improve with more stories, history and appreciation of our vets and fewer prayers.

[eyeball]

This isn't a left versus right issue, but when you make it about the glorification of war and not what it's really about, there is a real issue. There's not many people from the right or the centre that think it's about the glorification of war.

I guess there's lots of people on the left who suspect it's to drum up support for foreign policies that a lot of people on the right think are glorious. That's what's made it into a right vs left issue.

You guys started it.

[eyeball]

The pacifists refuse to believe that there can be "evil" in the world. What is evil? It comes in many disguises and many flavours but one theme is constant - the subjugation of people. When subjugation is enforced by threats and violence - evil has found its home.

No, real evil is when subjugation is actively supported by the free.

[sharkman]

Remembrance Day is an insult to those who were lost in the War to End All Wars since it now stands as a day to remember all those we continue to lose in wars. I will not proudly wear the poppy when we have not learned the lessons of the past and continue to send our sons and daughters to die.

Good grief, that you hold this opinion about Remembrance Day and the poppy is very sad, I feel embarrassed for you.

I'm so grateful that young people back when were able to see the evil that Hitler and Japan were and gave their lives to stop it. I saw a documentary on the Great Wars, and during WWII London, a city of 9 million at the time became half rubble, and still the Brits would not give in. An old veteran told of how on D-day his troop passed a wounded soldier crying out for help, but they had to keep crawling by or risk getting shot up themselves, they could offer no help. it tortures him to this day.

And we can't stop the petty bickering for one damn thread. You people make me sick.

[Big Guy]

I marched (walked) in the parade to-day and wore my poppy. I donated my poppy money because it goes to a very good cause and some of the old vets really need it. As to what it symbolizes - I suggest that it is up to the wearer (over the heart please). I personally believe that the concept is to REMEMBER. For me, it is to remember all the vets of my acquaintance who died over the last year.

It is also a reinforcement to me that war is a terrible waste of life and resources - and that it is not something to enter into without a lot of thinking, planning and soul searching.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Big Guy

[Big Guy]

At the luncheon after the parade at the local legion for some food and milk shakes, the idea of the pro-peace white poppies was discussed as was the recent controversy about the poppy hijab in the UK. I wonder what the participants on this board think about those two issues. There are a number of resources if you key "poppy hijab" into your search engine.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Big Guy

[Peter F]

.... Remembrance Day isn't an insult to those who served. Only people on the far far far far fringes of society think in that perverted way.

I didn't attend today's event to celebrate those who are alive; I attended to remember those who died - military and civilian - enemies and allies.

And like Cybercoma I often feel that the day is being usurped by those who seek glorification of themselves and the wars they served in. I have no time for the glorification of it all.

[eyeball]

I agree, it's two seperate issues. For some, for whatever reason, they cannot see the nuance, and make those distinctions.

Maybe it's because they're lost amongst all the soldiers that so often provide a backdrop to the politicians cheering and clapping for war.

[Keepitsimple]

And like Cybercoma I often feel that the day is being usurped by those who seek glorification of themselves and the wars they served in. I have no time for the glorification of it all.

My God man......have you not talked to veterans? You'd have trouble finding any war veteran who would glorify war.

[PIK]

I see cyber has no idea either. Why so full of hate? Go wear your white poppy with pride then ,but don't complain if someone knocks you out for wearing it. You are disgusting and I don't care If I get banned for saying it.

[Argus]

So....since you either don't understand or have no argument for what I'm saying you're going to create a strawman?

I dunno. You seem remarkably reticent to explain yourself in any understandable fashion. What else are to do but try and figure out what the hell is bothering you?

You seem to be saying that our getting into further wars is betraying those who fought in the war to end all wars. So I asked whether we should have ignored Hitler? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[Argus]

At the luncheon after the parade at the local legion for some food and milk shakes, the idea of the pro-peace white poppies was discussed as was the recent controversy about the poppy hijab in the UK. I wonder what the participants on this board think about those two issues. There are a number of resources if you key "poppy hijab" into your search engine.

The white poppy is derided by veterans who consider it a sign of contempt for their sacrifices. I agree with them.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Argus

[Shady]

I see cyber has no idea either. Why so full of hate? Go wear your white poppy with pride then ,but don't complain if someone knocks you out for wearing it. You are disgusting and I don't care If I get banned for saying it.

Well said. It's about time normal people started fighting (not literal fighting) back against this type of crap.

[On Guard for Thee]

I agree we should honor the lives and the sufferings of the people who were sent into war. But look how we do it so far, we fire off guns, fly over in warplanes, flail the flag all over the GD place. Maybe instead of Remembrance Day we should have Contemplative Day were we show that respect, and at the same time try to figure out how not to be so stupid again.

[Shady]

I dunno. You seem remarkably reticent to explain yourself in any understandable fashion. What else are to do but try and figure out what the hell is bothering you?

You seem to be saying that our getting into further wars is betraying those who fought in the war to end all wars. So I asked whether we should have ignored Hitler? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Good question. I'd add Korea in there as well. If not for that sacrifice, South Korea wouldn't be a free, vibrant, and prosperous country. Has anyone seen the Korean Peninsula at night?

[Michael Hardner]

Who's trying to stop Remembrance Day from existing? Why do you fall for this BS? No one, at least no one sane, is trying to put an end to Remembrance Day. Quit buying into the ridiculous strawman that Shady and others have built.

I don't think anybody is trying to stop it.

[overthere]

Glorification of war perhaps. As we speak Harper is spending 83 million of your and my dollars to completely recreate what happened at Vimy for the very same purpose. I think the term that has been applied is "Vimyification"

The term I use is 'respect'.

I choose to have some, and show it.

[overthere]

Feel free to wear a white poppy though or none, and to say and do what you wish.

That's why veterans serve, so that we all can make those choices.

[cybercoma]

I see cyber has no idea either. Why so full of hate? Go wear your white poppy with pride then ,but don't complain if someone knocks you out for wearing it. You are disgusting and I don't care If I get banned for saying it.

The White Poppy is even more insulting.

[jacee]

I agree we should honor the lives and the sufferings of the people who were sent into war. But look how we do it so far, we fire off guns, fly over in warplanes, flail the flag all over the GD place. Maybe instead of Remembrance Day we should have Contemplative Day were we show that respect, and at the same time try to figure out how not to be so stupid again.

I agree about the "stupid" part.

And I think most vets do too. They don't glorify war. They talk about the buddies they lost, often in voices still traumatised 70 years later.

Wherever we send them, our soldiers go above and beyond.

We need to be very attentive to what our politicians are doing to our soldiers ... in our name.

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