Gamergate Primer

[Black Dog]

Where is the evidence that male stereotypes are any less prevalent?

There are male tropes in games too: idealized hero or, more commonly today, the dark antihero. Neither is necessarily a negative thing, though. They wil have rock hard abs and bulging biceps. and they'll also have character traits beyond that.

Seems to me just as many male characters are just as sexualized in male macho kind of way.

Just who exactly are these allegedly sexualized macho dudes supposed to appeal to in a sexual way? Do you really think ripped abs and huge pecs are sexual signifiers in the same way as giant breasts or pert buttocks? The look of male heroes is a power fantasy, not a sexual one.

[TimG]

They wil have rock hard abs and bulging biceps. and they'll also have character traits beyond that.

So do female characters. You can draw conclusions by cherry picking examples that support what you want to believe.

Do you really think ripped abs and huge pecs are sexual signifiers in the same way as giant breasts or pert buttocks? The look of male heroes is a power fantasy, not a sexual one.

So what? Why is a male character that will make any real male feel inadequate in comparison better than a female character that does the same to a female.

[Black Dog]

So do female characters.

Except there's 100 such male characters to every one female. To say nothing of the other tropes discussed by people like Saarkesian.

You can draw conclusions by cherry picking examples that support what you want to believe.

Yeah. And? Is this, like, supposed to be a bad thing?

So what? Why is a male character that will make any real male feel inadequate in comparison better than a female character that does the same to a female.

First: I see you didn't answer the question about who these characters are supposed to be sexy to.

And second, it would seem odd that predominantly male gamers would continue to endorse with their dollars representations you say are designed to make them feel bad. Perhaps there's something else going on and men like to put themselves in the shoes if a virile ass-kicker. Can't see many women looking at a games and saying "I can totally identify with this stripper that Agent 47 is garrotting! Let me try this game!"

Edited October 29, 2014 by Black Dog

[Bonam]

And second, it would seem odd that predominantly male gamers would continue to endorse with their dollars representations you say are designed to make them feel bad. Perhaps there's something else going on and men like to put themselves in the shoes if a virile ass-kicker. Can't see many women looking at a games and saying "I can totally identify with this stripper that Agent 47 is garrotting! Let me try this game!"

Who the f**k plays a shooter to "identify with the character"? The only games where the point is to identify with your character are RPGs/MMOs, and those almost universally let you select the gender and appearance of your character. And why the heck would someone be trying to identify with a random target NPC in a game.

Separate universes, indeed.

[cybercoma]

Shooters are FIRST person....what do you mean you don't identify? You ARE the character. You see the game through th character's eyes.

[Black Dog]

Who the f**k plays a shooter to "identify with the character"? The only games where the point is to identify with your character are RPGs/MMOs, and those almost universally let you select the gender and appearance of your character. And why the heck would someone be trying to identify with a random target NPC in a game.

Separate universes, indeed.

I frankly have not the time, energy, or the inclination to hold your hand through this.

[Moonlight Graham]

Here's what Petit said in her controversial review of GTAV:

As for the defense that "well men are terrible in thsi game too," that's fine. But it does raise a question: why couldn't they make one of the psychos a woman?

Then you and Petit would argue that the only strong female characters in Rockstar games are murderous psychos and add the character to the list of negative female characters in games.

There are issues with how females have traditionally been portrayed in games and how few solid female characters there are no doubt, but one of the major reasons why most protagonists in games are males is also that in the real world men are far more violent than women, and most videogames involving fictional characters/stories are violent. Historically not many female gangsters and mercenaries and knights running around.

[Bonam]

I frankly have not the time, energy, or the inclination to hold your hand through this.

That's fine. Just realize that I do acknowledge that there are real issues with how women are treated in some parts of "gamer culture" if you want to call it that, such as the culture that gave rise to "gamergate". And there are real legitimate things to criticize and to improve.

But to start ranting about how a couple shooter games didn't have a female star and that makes the whole gaming industry inherently sexist in its depiction of women... well, that just sounds ridiculous to normal people who haven't been indoctrinated in leftist ideology regarding "white male privilege", "objectification", and what not.

[cybercoma]

Good thing that wasn't ever really the point then.

[Bonam]

Good thing that wasn't ever really the point then.

Good, glad we all agree then.

[Black Dog]

Then you and Petit would argue that the only strong female characters in Rockstar games are murderous psychos and add the character to the list of negative female characters in games.

There are issues with how females have traditionally been portrayed in games and how few solid female characters there are no doubt, but one of the major reasons why most protagonists in games are males is also that in the real world men are far more violent than women, and most videogames involving fictional characters/stories are violent. Historically not many female gangsters and mercenaries and knights running around.

And if there's one thing video games are known for, its their historical and scientific accuracy.

That's fine. Just realize that I do acknowledge that there are real issues with how women are treated in some parts of "gamer culture" if you want to call it that, such as the culture that gave rise to "gamergate". And there are real legitimate things to criticize and to improve.

But to start ranting about how a couple shooter games didn't have a female star and that makes the whole gaming industry inherently sexist in its depiction of women... well, that just sounds ridiculous to normal people who haven't been indoctrinated in leftist ideology regarding "white male privilege", "objectification", and what not.

Not as ridiculous as making up arguments out of whole cloth and attributing to the other side of a debate, as you've done here. Good lord.

[GostHacked]

So what? Why is a male character that will make any real male feel inadequate in comparison better than a female character that does the same to a female.

This I feel is a great question for this thread.

[Black Dog]

This I feel is a great question for this thread.

Because Kratos isn't designed to make you feel bad about your beer gut.

And before anyone goes down this road, I'm not saying female characters are designed to make females feel inadequate. The people who design female characters in many of these games aren't thinking about women at all.

[GostHacked]

That's an ad hominem argument. Her sincerity in loving video games has FA to do with her arguments about them.

It's not ad homenim when the person in question on a video containing two separate clips that show conflicting views. In one clip she loves them, in the next she says she does not care for them. So which is it?

So? That's not her argument.

She really does not have much of an argument when she contradicts herself.

Great. And what about the other games that don't?

What if they don't? Some games want you to play their character and follow the story they created.

If one has an issue with shitty representations in games, not playing those games DOESN'T SOLVE THE ISSUE.

Actually it does solve the issue. Game developers will change their strategy if these tropes are no longer selling games.

Oh so her having her tits out has a plot function, then? You'll note I'm not "basing my opinion on the game" on this one point. I'm pointing out that your example of a strong female character appears to still be depicted in a way that could be considered highly sexualized. It's not enough for her to be a hero: she has to be hot. That, my friend, is a trope.

I think it shows more how you are conditioned (or society in general) to think that the pic is sexualized in any way shape or form. It's judging a book by the cover thing. Damn some of us get excited over seeing a banana at the grocery store. How does a banana become sexualized? Some of us see sexualization in almost everything we see. You've been exposed to the tropes through various forms of media without really understanding how much exposure you do get to it. How do TV and movies do it? Would you say it is a major or minor issue when it comes to movies and TV?

I just have absolutely no idea how you can think the vast majority of games allow you to be a female protagonist. It's completely wrong and Black Dog is right, it's also irrelevant. The discussion is about the presentation of women in video games, regardless of how many or how few there are. Quantifying them doesn't mean a whole lot.

So how are men portrayed through tropes? And why don't we hear a huge stink about the misrepresentation there?

[cybercoma]

Because Kratos isn't designed to make you feel bad about your beer gut.

And before anyone goes down this road, I'm not saying female characters are designed to make females feel inadequate. The people who design female characters in many of these games aren't thinking about women at all.

You also made a good point earlier that it's about power fantasies and living vicariously through those characters for men. Also, men are not told over and over again that their value as a person is tied almost exclusively to their attractiveness to the opposite sex. Since it's Halloween, look at kids' costumes. For the boys it's generally utilitarian things related to jobs, while girls need to be princesses who look pretty and are provided for. Edited October 30, 2014 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

So how are men portrayed through tropes? And why don't we hear a huge stink about the misrepresentation there?

There are countless tropes about heroism, amongst other things. A lot of the tropes about women in video games are as much about the men too.

In any case, if you want to specifically address men's issues, then do a project on it. Just because issues exist for women, doesn't mean there aren't any for men. Likewise, just because there's issues with male characters, doesn't mean there aren't any for women or that the one's for women are somehow "ok".

[Black Dog]

It's not ad homenim when the person in question on a video containing two separate clips that show conflicting views. In one clip she loves them, in the next she says she does not care for them. So which is it?

It's absolutely a textbook ad hominem because it's making everything about her and not the argument which is not contingent upon whether she likes games or not.

She really does not have much of an argument when she contradicts herself. [/size]

So her contradicting herself on how she really feels about games invalidates her arguments about women and video game tropes? That's idiotic.

Actually it does solve the issue. Game developers will change their strategy if these tropes are no longer selling games.

Except the people these games are made by and marketed to aren't the people who care much about women's portrayals in these games. As you and others have already claimed: it's actually a selling point.

Think about it: if the argument is "negative portrayals of women in video games keep women from buying games and participating in games culture" your "solution" is women should do something they already do (don't play the games). And this is supposed to lead to change...how?

I think it shows more how you are conditioned (or society in general) to think that the pic is sexualized in any way shape or form. It's judging a book by the cover thing. Damn some of us get excited over seeing a banana at the grocery store. How does a banana become sexualized? Some of us see sexualization in almost everything we see. You've been exposed to the tropes through various forms of media without really understanding how much exposure you do get to it. How do TV and movies do it? Would you say it is a major or minor issue when it comes to movies and TV?

It's pretty easy to look around and see sexualized imagery because sexualized imagery is everywhere. It's not even lik eyou have to know what you're looking for to see it.

So how are men portrayed through tropes?

I just gave a couple of examples above.

And why don't we hear a huge stink about the misrepresentation there?

I dunno, you tell me why male gamers aren't upset about how men are portrayed in games.

[TimG]

In any case, if you want to specifically address men's issues, then do a project on it.

A cop out. Whether you admit or not you are creating a biased presentation of facts by only looking that the female side of the question - a bias that results is a complete misrepresentation of the issue and the suggestion of a problem where there really is none.

For whatever reason games have be traditionally marketed at males and that affects the characters. Just like a show like "sex in the city" is marketed at females. There is absolutely nothing wrong with entertainment products that are targeted at one gender, however, as businesses, video game developers should be asking themselves what they need to do to attract more women. But looking for ways to expand a market does not make the current products "wrong" or "bad".

[Black Dog]

A cop out. Whether you admit or not you are creating a biased presentation of facts by only looking that the female side of the question - a bias that results is a complete misrepresentation of the issue and the suggestion of a problem where there really is none.

This is just pure nonsense.

For whatever reason games have be traditionally marketed at males and that affects the characters. J

Which is the entire issue we're discussing.

Just like a show like "sex in the city" is marketed at females. There is absolutely nothing wrong with entertainment products that are targeted at one gender, however, as businesses, video game developers should be asking themselves what they need to do to attract more women.

Who said there was?

But looking for ways to expand a market does not make the current products "wrong" or "bad".

Sop basically, your argument is a nutshell is that video games are targeted to men so of naturally they will have things men like such as sexualized depictions of women, but if they want to attract more women they should as long as it doesn't involve actually changing the products to appeal to women.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Black Dog

[cybercoma]

It's pretty myopic to think that addressing women's concerns is somehow biased against men, as though the things men like have to be degrading or detrimental to women.

[TimG]

Who said there was?

Spare us the crocodile tears. This entire narrative is intended to denigrate video games and suggest there is something inherently wrong with them because they have been marketed at males. You know this is the objective. Stop pretending otherwise when someone calls you on it.

your argument is a nutshell is that video games are targeted to men so of naturally they will have things men like such as sexualized depictions of women

Just like shows like 'sex in city' include sexualized depictions of men. Why is this an issue?

but if they want to attract more women they should as long as it doesn't involve actually changing the products to appeal to women.

Obviously they will have to change but I doubt they are going to get much useful advice from people who think entertainment products have to be politically correct pablum. Edited October 30, 2014 by TimG

[cybercoma]

Spare us the crocodile tears. This entire narrative is intended to denigrate video games and suggest there is something inherently wrong with them because they have been marketed at males. You know this is the objective. Stop pretending otherwise when someone calls you on it.

I guess if you completely misrepresent people's arguments it's about that. But some people have better reading comprehension skills than that.

Just like shows like 'sex in city' include sexualized depictions of men. Why is this an issue?

It is an issue. Nobody's said that it's fine the way relationships are depicted in movies and television shows, especially tripe like Sex and The City.

Obviously they will have to change but I doubt they are going to get much useful advice from people who think entertainment products have to be politically correct pablum.

"politically correct pablum"

Is that what you call writing stories that have more complexity, giving female characters better identities and more agency?

I'm not sure you understand what "pablum" is.

[Black Dog]

Spare us the crocodile tears. This entire narrative is intended to denigrate video games and suggest there is something inherently wrong with them because they have been marketed at males. You know this is the objective. Stop pretending otherwise when someone calls you on it.

Ah yes of course. Never mind what people actually say; you know the real answers. All part of a plot to make video games and gamers look bad because of reasons. BENGHAZI FALSE FLAG FALSE FLAG!

Just like shows like 'sex in city' include sexualized depictions of men. Why is this an issue?

"This is a thing that also exists that I am personally not upset by therefore I do not understand why people are upset by this other thing" is the most inane, entitled line of thinking I've encountered in some time. Kudos.

Obviously they will have to change but I doubt they are going to get much useful advice from people who thing entertainment products have to be politically corrects mush.

I mean obviously a game wouldn't have value unless its female characters are ruuning around with their tits out. Obviously.

Are you 14?

[cybercoma]

"This is a thing that also exists that I am personally not upset by therefore I do not understand why people are upset by this other thing" is the most inane, entitled line of thinking I've encountered in some time. Kudos.

Social privilege is a myth though.

[Black Dog]

Social privilege is a myth though.

Yeah I don't know if these guys can see it, but "there isn't a problem stop whining about it already" firmly resides on the same continuum of silencing tactics as "shut up slut."