China and Canada, Freedom Foes or Trade Friends

[Argus]

Actually if you want to be a dick head, there isn't any rules! You clearly proven that 7 comments ago!

Calling me names won't hide the incredible ignorance of your comment about China and freedom.

You seem to put a lot of value on being able to voice opposition on the government as evidence of freedom!

If you can't voice opposition then what kind of freedom do you have? They don't have religious freedom either, despite your silly assertion.

Religious freedom is sharply curtailed. Religious and ethnic minorities remained a key target of repression in 2012, with several deaths in custody reported. All religious groups must register with the government, which regulates their activities, makes personnel decisions, and guides their theology. Some groups, including certain Buddhist and Christian sects, are forbidden, and their members face harassment, imprisonment, and torture.

As for the courts you speak so highly of..

The CCP controls the judiciary and directs verdicts and sentences, especially in politically sensitive cases. In 2012, this was particularly evident in the opaque proceedings involving Bo Xilai, his wife, and their associates.

They don't have the freedom to move and live where they want. They have no free press, no free internet...

Citizens who attempt to form opposition parties or advocate for democratic reforms have been sentenced to long prison terms in recent years. In January 2012, Li Tie of Hubei Province was sentenced to 10 years in prison for being a member of the China Social Democracy Party and for his online writings. In October, Cao Haibo of Yunnan Province was sentenced to eight years for starting online discussion groups about a possible political party.

I mean, think about it. Without a free press or free speech what is the point of anything else? You don't know what's going on anywhere but right in front of you. You only know what the government wants you to know.

Weishenme ni bu xihuan xue shuo Hanyu?

Ni bu yong shuo putonghua ma?

Ruguo ni xue Hanyu, keneng ni hui mingbai Zhongguoren.

WWWTT

Yes, do keep posting incomprehensible gibberish. As I said, it's no more convincing than any of the other nonsense you're spouting.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2013/china#.VDCfyBawTHk

Edited October 5, 2014 by Argus

[WWWTT]

Well, as I said, even though it's gibberish it's as coherent and logical as anything you've written about China in English.

Ya I guess if a chicken tries to read English, it looks like gibberish to!

You don't really put much thought into your comments do you hey buddy?

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2013/china#.VDCfyBawTHk

What a load of stupid garbage!

And who are all these tens of millions of dead people?

Typical garbage BS link that only YOU, a PISS POOR DEBATER would provide!

Think buddy! Think!

You've got a long way to go buddy!

Ruguo Ni xihuan xue Zhongwen, Wo hui jiao Ni

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Back it up or retract.

I'm not retracting anything you sad PISS POOR DEBATER!

Try improving your debating skills for a few more years and then we'll talk!

Oh wait, you've made more than 20 000 and you still haven't improved?!?!?!?!

Sad buddy, you're real sad!

WWWTT

[On Guard for Thee]

I'm not retracting anything you sad PISS POOR DEBATER!

Try improving your debating skills for a few more years and then we'll talk!

Oh wait, you've made more than 20 000 and you still haven't improved?!?!?!?!

Sad buddy, you're real sad!

WWWTT

Speaking of PPD, haven't you already been kicked off of here at least once for that kind of nonsense?

[hitops]

Whats hurting our citizens is allowing predatory trade practices to go unanswered. Trading with an entity thats engaged in currency manipulation or price fixing can damage entire industries, wipe out wealth, depress wages, etc. Allowing such manipulation to cause the flight of capital creates private and public debt.

No, it hurts our citizens in one way (depressed demand from local producers/manufacturers) and benefits them in other ways (lower prices, increased purchasing power).

It's Chinese citizens, not western ones that are getting most kicked in the this deal. Over time that will change when Chinese citizens want it bad enough.

An no, price fixing does not wipe out industries, full stop. It undermines some industries, and stimulates others. The economy is much more complex than you are seeing.

[hitops]

So we didn't need to trouble ourselves negotiating a free trade treaty with the US after all. We should have just dropped all our tariffs unilaterally and everything would have been rosy. Who knew.

If they did not want free trade, yes that would be the most beneficial approach. Freed trade both ways is of course even more beneficial.

Let's say it was only one way, and they had tariffs and we did not. We would suffer from lower exports, but we would also benefit from lower imports. The difference is that with tariffs in place, there is a regulatory cost which goes to no productive activity at all apart from employing those enforcing the regulations.

Edited October 6, 2014 by hitops

[hitops]

You have a link for this?

I agree they are actively trying to keep the RMB low to keep exports high. But the government is also actively trying to increase wages and unions are allowed to strike!

I have personally seen the price increases there. As compared to Thailand, Bangkok has virtually stood still in the last 5 years. Thailand in my opinion would be a lot more attractive for cheaper labour now.

WWWTT

At some point, as China allows trade at all, the value of it's citizens labor will obviously increase as the demand for it increases, and therefore to keep labor your Chinese factory must increase wages so they don't run to another factory.

As a result, Chinese standards of living are increasing. This not change the fact that they should be increasing much more but by forcing the RMB low, the Chinese government is in fact stealing 'real' wages right out of the pockets of the factory workers. Why? Because by keeping prices and wages low, and therefore exports high, it's a free though cheating way to pump up government coffers and keep that trade deficit in their favor.

In the meantime, top Chinese officials wealth is routinely 100x of times that of top Canadians politicians, for example.

Edited October 6, 2014 by hitops

[cybercoma]

You don't really put much thought into your comments do you hey buddy?

WWWTT

Says the guy who's trying to claim that people in China have far more freedom than Canadians. Riiight.

[cybercoma]

What a load of stupid garbage!

And who are all these tens of millions of dead people?

Typical garbage BS link that only YOU, a PISS POOR DEBATER would provide!

Think buddy! Think!

You've got a long way to go buddy!

Ruguo Ni xihuan xue Zhongwen, Wo hui jiao Ni

WWWTT

I love when you've got nothing of substance to respond with because then you go into personal insult mode saying people's replies are garage and that they're piss poor debaters. How about you address the issues and stop throwing around insults. And stop posting in pidgin when you know damn well the person you're responding to doesn't speak Mandarin or Cantonese. It's incredibly rude.

Edited October 6, 2014 by cybercoma

[hitops]

I'm not retracting anything you sad PISS POOR DEBATER!

Try improving your debating skills for a few more years and then we'll talk!

Oh wait, you've made more than 20 000 and you still haven't improved?!?!?!?!

Sad buddy, you're real sad!

WWWTT

While the tone of the exchanges between both you and Argus is childish on both dies, it is truly confusing and unexplained that you would suggest China has more freedom than us.

In no measure do they. They cannot freely protest anywhere in mainland China, and only to a very limited extent in the one area China did not control until recently. They have no elections. They have no independent judicial system. They have no freedom online. There is no freedom of commerce. Every major industry in only allowed to operate under a state-controlled private entity. You cannot openly criticize the government without running into serious problems. Public dissidents are jailed. In Canada is a company produced poisoned food, people would put them out of business by buying elsewhere. In China when that happens, the government acts to stop them from importing safe goods, and forces them into buying the poison food from the Chinese, state-aligned industry.

Here the most vocal opponents of the government (NDP and liberals) are the most likely people to get into power. In China they would be the most likely people to get into prison.

Nobody runs from Canada to China. Millions run the other way. China is an autocracy, with only the very beginning of democracy creeping in. The word ridiculous is not too strong to describe your assertion that they have more freedom than we do here.

Edited October 6, 2014 by hitops

[WWWTT]

At some point, as China allows trade at all, the value of it's citizens labor will obviously increase as the demand for it increases, and therefore to keep labor your Chinese factory must increase wages so they don't run to another factory.

As a result, Chinese standards of living are increasing. This not change the fact that they should be increasing much more but by forcing the RMB low, the Chinese government is in fact stealing 'real' wages right out of the pockets of the factory workers. Why? Because by keeping prices and wages low, and therefore exports high, it's a free though cheating way to pump up government coffers and keep that trade deficit in their favor.

In the meantime, top Chinese officials wealth is routinely 100x of times that of top Canadians politicians, for example.

This was not my experience when I was last there back at this years new year (year of the horse by the way).

Everything is noticeably more expensive! When I say everything, I'm referring to clothing, food (consumer goods I guess) taxi's, restaurants, etc.

Some people there mentioned that it is the intent of the government to see wages increase.

And our way flight back from Nanning Guanxi to Shenzhen Guangzho, I met this guy from London England whom has a Chinese wife as I from Nanning on the plane. He has an importing company, and he told me the same story. He even went farther and said that his profit margins are now getting slimmer because of the upward push on wages throughout the entire country. Unfortunately that was the extent of our conversation.

I believe this is to strengthen the domestic market.

I can't respond to what you are talking about a politicians salary. Can you provide a link?

I know a government job is good there, but a government job is good here too!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Says the guy who's trying to claim that people in China have far more freedom than Canadians. Riiight.

Lot more than thought went into the comment.

Was there 6 times over 5 years and met many people and learned the language. Have many friends, learned many customs and seen lots of the south traveling. Also learned much Chinese history, but still way more out there to learn.

This experience destroyed lots of western stereo types!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

I love when you've got nothing of substance to respond with because then you go into personal insult mode saying people's replies are garage and that they're piss poor debaters. How about you address the issues and stop throwing around insults. And stop posting in pidgin when you know damn well the person you're responding to doesn't speak Mandarin or Cantonese. It's incredibly rude.

It's pinyin, not pidgin.

Lot easier to translate than Chinese radicals/characters. So if you have some time, you can try.

Also, I never started it. I was trying to have a good debate here. Not my fault you find my claim (or others here) that the Chinese have more rights than most westerners crazy. That's just something that I found and expressed. If you want to call someone, or imply that someone is stupid for expressing their opinion, then we got a problem don't we!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

In no measure do they. They cannot freely protest anywhere in mainland China, and only to a very limited extent in the one area China did not control until recently. They have no elections. They have no independent judicial system. They have no freedom online. There is no freedom of commerce. Every major industry in only allowed to operate under a state-controlled private entity. You cannot openly criticize the government without running into serious problems. Public dissidents are jailed. In Canada is a company produced poisoned food, people would put them out of business by buying elsewhere. In China when that happens, the government acts to stop them from importing safe goods, and forces them into buying the poison food from the Chinese, state-aligned industry.

Here the most vocal opponents of the government (NDP and liberals) are the most likely people to get into power. In China they would be the most likely people to get into prison.

Nobody runs from Canada to China. Millions run the other way. China is an autocracy, with only the very beginning of democracy creeping in. The word ridiculous is not too strong to describe your assertion that they have more freedom than we do here.

So when was the last time you took part in a protest? Out in the streets? Honestly.

You are aware that you do not need belong to the communist party to vote at municipal elections in China, or no? Furthermore, all in China are free to join the communist party, where you CAN become involved in politics and become a politician.

You are also aware that when you vote in Canada, your vote has the exact same weight as every other person, regardless of how much you educated yourself, regardless how much you learned the issues. If you vote NDP and I vote conservative, both our votes just cancelled each others out. To me that is just a waste of time since there is little to no requirements required to vote.

As far as corporations go, you can start a business. But maybe they don't have rights there as they do here. And I agree they are more heavily regulated. So as far as I'm concerned, that's BETTER for the average citizen!!!

Their judicial system as far as I can tell treats everyone fairly. i don't think there are any judicial systems in the world that are free from flaws. Just as Guy Paul Moran! As well, politicians do jail time just like businessmen! How many here do?

And finally, there are many foreigners that live in China! I met very many! I am also one of them!

WWWTT

[The_Squid]

WWWTTTT should change his handle to "Chairman Mao"!

lol

Chinese have more freedoms than Canadians is akin to saying a sasquatch lives in your back yard! It's easily refuted just by having the briefest of looks... China is a mess. The Commies have made it a mess. The Commies kill their opposition on a regular basis. The Commies repress freedoms on a constant basis.

When they let Gao Zhisheng out of prison last month after nearly five years, he had dropped from 175 pounds to 137. Half of his teeth were gone or rotten. At age 50, his hair had turned white; his relatives thought they saw a ghost.

Mr. Gao could not believe his own reflection in the mirror. Since his release, he has barely been able to carry on a telephone conversation with his wife, Geng He, who lives in the United States with their two children.

Is this the product of a rising, confident China — the “China dream” that President Xi Jinping likes to present to the world? Mr. Gao committed no crime and never questioned Communist Party rule. He was more dangerous: a lawyer who sought to uphold the law and the constitution that the party claims to live by.

Mr. Gao was part of a movement that sought to reform China gradually, peacefully, through the rule of law. Given the party’s diminishing legitimacy, because of corruption, pollution, and other ills, Mr. Gao posed too much of a risk.

Read more at http://www.toledoblade.com/Editorials/2014/09/18/China-s-human-rights-abuses.html#z5xRePR6D8mCk4gd.99

all in China are free to join the communist party, where you CAN become involved in politics and become a politician.

Want to be involved in politics in China? Become a Commie member and do what you're told! Now there's freedom!! LOL

[hitops]

So when was the last time you took part in a protest? Out in the streets? Honestly.

You are aware that you do not need belong to the communist party to vote at municipal elections in China, or no? Furthermore, all in China are free to join the communist party, where you CAN become involved in politics and become a politician.

You are also aware that when you vote in Canada, your vote has the exact same weight as every other person, regardless of how much you educated yourself, regardless how much you learned the issues. If you vote NDP and I vote conservative, both our votes just cancelled each others out. To me that is just a waste of time since there is little to no requirements required to vote.

As far as corporations go, you can start a business. But maybe they don't have rights there as they do here. And I agree they are more heavily regulated. So as far as I'm concerned, that's BETTER for the average citizen!!!

Their judicial system as far as I can tell treats everyone fairly. i don't think there are any judicial systems in the world that are free from flaws. Just as Guy Paul Moran! As well, politicians do jail time just like businessmen! How many here do?

And finally, there are many foreigners that live in China! I met very many! I am also one of them!

WWWTT

I've never been to a protest. And that is totally irrelevant, the point is I can attend one if I want to, about anything, saying any anti-government slogans I want. And I can post here against the government 24/7 and they can't do a thing about it. No so in China.

Free to join the party means you do what the party tells you, you are NOT free to voice your own opinion against the party. All candidates are approved by the party, there is no free vote. The fact that you would suggest 'freedom' to join the party is an example of how they are free, is almost laughably ignorant. Hey I know, maybe you should be 'free' to join the CPC....ONLY the CPC. You can vote for Baird, Kenny or Mckay. Look at your freedom! lol

Citizens have no rights against corporations in China. Corporations can poison people, and remain in business and not only that, but the government forces you to buy from them rather than import safer products.

Judicial system treats 'everyone fairly'. AYFKM? China's justice system has a 99% conviction rate. It's a laughable farce. Basically if you go to trial, you're guilty. Does that sound like a justice system to you?

The only politicians that do jail time in China, are those who get on the wrong side of more powerful politicians. Every once in awhile they throw a mid-level guy on the chopping block for public consumption, meanwhile the biggest thieves are the top politicians. The net worth's of China ruling body is probably 100x that of the average western nation's entire parliament, meanwhile the net worth of the average Chinese is a small fraction of the average north american or european.

There are NO foreigners who live in China who live there, do to wanting to escape poor conditions or political oppression in Canada. There are millions of Chinese who do that to come here, and we both know it.

China is an autocratic, utterly corrupt, pollution-ravaged industrial sewer where party goals are first, and people come second. If the people had a say, it would not be that way, but they don't. I do believe that over time this will improve.

Edited October 6, 2014 by hitops

[WWWTT]

Citizens have no rights against corporations in China. Corporations can poison people, and remain in business and not only that, but the government forces you to buy from them rather than import safer products.

Judicial system treats 'everyone fairly'. AYFKM? This is even more ignorant than your previous point. China's justice system has a 99% conviction rate. It's a laughable farce. Basically if you go to trial, you're guilty. Does that sound like a justice system to you?

The only politicians that do jail time in China, are those who get on the wrong side of more powerful politicians.

Citizens have no rights against corporations in China????

Are you sure about that?

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCgQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2F2009%2Fjan%2F22%2Fchina-baby-milk-scandal-death-sentence&ei=ByEzVJu5GYOayQSL4IIw&usg=AFQjCNHDxwH38tbN5km1X5jYHdEfo93hXg&bvm=bv.76802529,d.aWw&cad=rja

I think you are confusing China with Canada where the wealthy get to walk as long as they can sign a cheque

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F2008_Canada_listeriosis_outbreak&ei=yCEzVJ7WNM61yASyloKoDg&usg=AFQjCNFAvO_gSKH5nJYRxumCRTminRJIbQ&bvm=bv.76943099,d.aWw&cad=rja

Fair justice system in China is what it looks like to me!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Every once in awhile they throw a mid-level guy on the chopping block for public consumption, meanwhile the biggest thieves are the top politicians. The net worth's of China ruling body is probably 100x that of the average western nation's entire parliament, meanwhile the net worth of the average Chinese is a small fraction of the average north american or european.

Complete nonsense! I'm sure you have a link to back it up.

WWWTT

[hitops]

Citizens have no rights against corporations in China????

Are you sure about that?

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCgQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2F2009%2Fjan%2F22%2Fchina-baby-milk-scandal-death-sentence&ei=ByEzVJu5GYOayQSL4IIw&usg=AFQjCNHDxwH38tbN5km1X5jYHdEfo93hXg&bvm=bv.76802529,d.aWw&cad=rja

Great. Doesn't change the fact that when parents tried to import safe milk, they were banned from doing so by the Chinese government.

I think you are confusing China with Canada where the wealthy get to walk as long as they can sign a cheque

Please spend a little time findings out what a class action settlement means. It means the plaintiffs accepted the settlement. They didn't have to accept it, they could have gone to trial, but they chose to accept.

Complete nonsense! I'm sure you have a link to back it up.

WWWTT

http://www.newstatesman.com/global-issues/2014/03/china’s-billionaire-politicians-quadruple-their-wealth

There you go. Being a politician was even better for wealth generation than being one of China's wealthiest people (quandrupled in last 8 years, vs only tripled)

Edited October 6, 2014 by hitops

[WWWTT]

Please spend a little time findings out what a class action settlement means. It means the plaintiffs accepted the settlement. They didn't have to accept it, they could have gone to trial, but they chose to accept.

Oh you mean a PRIVATE class action suit when the government doesn't lay any charges or makes any convictions and the victims have to take on the burden/expense themselves? That's why the lawsuit went from 350 million to less than 10% settlement. Oh ya 4 years later!!!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

http://www.newstatesman.com/global-issues/2014/03/china’s-billionaire-politicians-quadruple-their-wealth

There you go. Being a politician was even better for wealth generation than being one of China's wealthiest people (quandrupled in last 8 years, vs only tripled)

Ya, so what?

Your a socialist now? Really? Really?

But meanwhile, back in Canadian politics you're anti union.

WWWTT

[The_Squid]

China's repression is getting desperate... they will even jail their allies.... if they aren't ally enough for the Commies.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/29/opinion/chinas-fruitless-repression-of-the-uighurs.html?_r=0

Last week, a court in China’s far western Xinjiang region sentenced Ilham Tohti, a member of the Uighur minority, to life in prison for the crime of “inciting separatism.” The conviction of this moderate scholar elicited international condemnation; the sentence was an order of magnitude longer than those given to other Chinese dissidents. But, far from being a show of strength, the sentence is a sign of the confusion and desperation behind the government’s policies toward Uighurs.

That Mr. Tohti, an economics professor and a blogger, should become a celebrated political prisoner is a paradox, for he is in many ways a poster child for what the Communist Party hopes more Uighurs will become. Educated, and eloquent in Mandarin, he was a party member from a family closely engaged with the state (his male relatives include members of China’s military and state security organs). He is professional, entrepreneurial and middle class (his family assets amounted to around $130,000 before state confiscation). He is not outwardly religious (most Uighurs are Muslims, but vary in the degree and nature of their observance). He is distinctive mainly in his outspokenness.

[WWWTT]

WWWTTTT should change his handle to "Chairman Mao"!

lol

Chinese have more freedoms than Canadians is akin to saying a sasquatch lives in your back yard! It's easily refuted just by having the briefest of looks... China is a mess. The Commies have made it a mess. The Commies kill their opposition on a regular basis. The Commies repress freedoms on a constant basis.

Want to be involved in politics in China? Become a Commie member and do what you're told! Now there's freedom!! LOL

Ya actually, when your government delivers surplus growth for almost 40 non stop years (many of those in DOUBLE DIGITS!!!), I can see why their critics here have nothing left but comparing to Sasquatch stories.

That's all you got hey buddy?

WWWTT

[cybercoma]

It's pretty offensive to those who've lost friends and family members when you come on here calling China's abuses "Sasquatch stories." They're well documented. But then, when you make up your own version of reality, what does documentation matter? Global Warming becomes a myth, 9/11 was a secret plot, Elvis is still alive somewhere. It doesn't matter.