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War Against ISIL


Big Guy

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Anyone who comes on this forum and thinks fanatical suicide bombers are an effective method shows blatantly

his lack of appreciation for what he talks about and presumes to lecture Israe about.

That comment by BigGuy I expected and evidences for me one of the most ignorant comments I have yet to read on this board by the

arm chair experts on terrorism.

Terrorism in fact does the exact opposite of what it intends. It mobilizes the very enemy it thinks it is defeating. It places the

attacked under a siege mentality and it makes such people even the most moderate and peaceful of citizens,fight back.

it is the most futile and useless of approaches. To capture people, to win them over, one can not do it blowing up their children.

In Israel's case the non stop attacks by terrorists simply achieved on thing-its creating one of the most powerfulmilitaries in the world.

Israel is already doing what the West who is so quick to condemn Israel for is now doing-the exact same thing-fighting back.

Is ironic. Onto this board come the usual terrorist apologists claiming Israel is in the run and no one likes it oblivious to the very fact the

West is having o engage in the exact same tactics they condemn Israel for.

Not a peep from the terrorist apologists even he one who has the audacity to compare ISIS and IDF and Hamas as all one and the same.

I will say this directly to Big Guy, Your comment as ignorant as it can get, Terrorism, and in particular suicide bombers to not frighten. Thehy do not cause any effect other than to cause the people who witness their attacks to become desensitivized and fight back.

It didn't take down Israel.It did not take down Britain. Go on and finish your ridiculous contention. Show one nation that lost a war to terrorism.

Show one nation whose people poof vanished because of terrorism.

talk about apologizing for terrorist tactics. Yah yah, you' ll spit up your water and say oh that's not what I meant. I am not condoning suicide bombers saying they are effective.

RIGHT.

Can it get any more absurd. A man who thinks because people in the amount of 30 died in a suicide attack, the number 30 'SEEMED" to mke it more effective than an air war.

Right.

So now we compare air wars to suicide bombers/ There's a logical comparison. There's an appreciation of what it is being analyzed.

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Right.

So now we compare air wars to suicide bombers/ There's a logical comparison. There's an appreciation of what it is being analyzed.

Thank you for another objective, intelligent and impartial response. You continue to be rude so I am not sure I want to read any more of what you have to say. I originally thought your response to topics was passionate and forceful but you have deteriorated to rude and insulting. Why would you expect anybody to respond to rudeness and insults? Any appropriate response from me to you would be with rudeness and insults. I find that to be distasteful but we do have a history of disagreeing what is an appropriate and proportional.

Finally, I'll try again;

Israel good, Palestinians and anybody criticizing Israel is bad.

Rue knows what Israel is doing and why it is doing it.

Everybody else (and especially Big Guy - who is an apologist for terrorists) has no clue what is going on in Israel.

Criticize Israel and you are an anti Semite.

Suicide bombing a waste of time. Bombing from the air is good.

"Show one nation that lost a war to terrorism." Well, Japan lost a war to "terrorism". The USA dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killing hundreds of thousands of civilians. It so terrorised the population and leadership, that Japan surrendered. That was a very effective use of terror.

Since you find my comments "ignorant" and "absurd", why do you bother reading them and commenting on them. I have learned to ignore any comments or opinions from posters who are ignorant and absurd.

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Show one nation whose people poof vanished because of terrorism.

Best example would be North Vietnam's conquest of South Vietnam, and the Khmer Rouge victory in Cambodia.
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Well, some interesting news popped across the ticker yesterday.

"Turkey has agreed to allow moderate Syrian rebels to be trained on its soil, the US says, in its bid to combat Islamic State in Syria and Iraq."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29591916

That is not the Kurds they will be training. We will be giving MORE aid to the so called 'moderates' who make up the non-ISIS wing of the Sunni opposition. The most moderate rebels left in Syria are basically Muslim Brotherhood types. They are more likely to fight against Assad than against ISIS. I don't think its unfair to say that the west is actively and openly involved in continuing the Syrian Civil War, and attempting to make sure that Assad loses.

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"Show one nation that lost a war to terrorism." Well, Japan lost a war to "terrorism". The USA dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killing hundreds of thousands of civilians. It so terrorised the population and leadership, that Japan surrendered. That was a very effective use of terror.

Apples to oranges.........The Japanese were not killing other Japanese, nor were the Allies requested by the elected Government of Japan to aide in such actions......likewise, Japanese public opinion played little into the Japanese surrender, nor post-war "compliance" of the US occupation......

Far better comparisons can be drawn to other similar insurgencies. If one is to examine past successful counterinsurgency actions, like the British in Malaya or Northern Ireland, "Victory" was gained by the side that was able to produce the least amount of wanton civilian deaths, coupled with provisions for security established by namely the locals themselves. The MCP, PIRA and finally ISIS didn't/won't win because they could kill more of their fellow citizens in villages/tube stations/markets, they lost because they couldn't keep the hospitals, schools, waterworks and power on.......

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Well, some interesting news popped across the ticker yesterday.

"Turkey has agreed to allow moderate Syrian rebels to be trained on its soil, the US says, in its bid to combat Islamic State in Syria and Iraq."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29591916

That is not the Kurds they will be training. We will be giving MORE aid to the so called 'moderates' who make up the non-ISIS wing of the Sunni opposition. The most moderate rebels left in Syria are basically Muslim Brotherhood types. They are more likely to fight against Assad than against ISIS. I don't think its unfair to say that the west is actively and openly involved in continuing the Syrian Civil War, and attempting to make sure that Assad loses.

I too noticed that interesting move by Turkey. Those "moderates" in Syria, if they exist any more at all, are focussed on Assad. That is who they are rebelling against. Also, they are no allies to the Kurds. I assume that Turkey has to make some kind of gesture with ISIS now knocking on Baghdad's door.

We are being played like a fine fiddle.

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.... The MCP, PIRA and finally ISIS didn't/won't win because they could kill more of their fellow citizens in villages/tube stations/markets, they lost because they couldn't keep the hospitals, schools, waterworks and power on.......

I was watching the coverage of this war on the talk shows to-day. The Chief of the Pentagon was on saying that "the ISIL enemy is BLENDING into part of the disenfranchised Sunni population". Later there was video of ISIL fighters (or government officials) distributing food and medical supplies to the villagers. Some hospitals are open and manned by Islamic physicians.

The worst and dumbest thing that we could do is to underestimate the enemy. Everything that I have heard from Washington and Ottawa indicates that these guys just don't know what is going on. BTW, now the USA is dispatching Apache helicopters into the defence of Baghdad. They may as well send ground troops in and make it official.

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Anyone who comes on this forum and thinks fanatical suicide bombers are an effective method shows blatantly

his lack of appreciation for what he talks about and presumes to lecture Israe about.

Unfortunately, bombing civilians has been effective. Ask the Jewish terrorist groups, whose leaders eventually became prime ministers.

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Unfortunately, bombing civilians has been effective. Ask the Jewish terrorist groups, whose leaders eventually became prime ministers.

Do the "Palestinians" warn the victims to get out of the way before each rocket attack?
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I defer to Derek's comments.

The Khmer Rouge and Viet Cong were guerilla armies engaged in war crimes. The difference between them and terrorist groups such as ISiS or HAMAS is that they were not engaged in war outside their own territory. They were involved in internal civil wars with their own people and foreign armies on their soil. They did not attack world wide an/or outside their borders. I will save for another thread the huge difference between the disciplined chain of command and training of the Viet Cong compared to Muslim fundamentalist terrorists.

While the Viet Cong tactics were highly effective against conventional armies in the jungle as Ho chi Minh stated in his memoirs, the Americans defeated themselves. Their civil rights movement, internal opposition to the war and corruption rotted their armed forces from within. Ho Chi Minh stated it was his tactic to just wait the US out until it destroyed itself. There was never any definitive war battle by the Viet Cong that won the war. It waited it out watching the US internally combust.

Killing civilians does not win wars. To say killing civilians is an effective tactic to win wars has no historic basis.

At best all committing war crimes, autrocities and violence has done is entrench a cycle of tit for tat responses that creates a stalemate or war of attrition-its precisely ineffective because it provides no resolution, just continuous but ineffective violence.

The people who conquered North Vietnam were Coca-Cola,Adidas, and other multi-nationals. They never used a weapon. They never engaged in violence and yet they soon had the government under their control. Not evem the Russians and Chinese could prevent colke and Big Macs.

The only effective war being engaged today is done on the internet and cell phone and it is capturing the hearts and mind of the next generation through

through the manipulation of sexual messages and messages appealing to materialism.

Once the cell phone infiltrated the Middle East it brought with it Western materialism and all the values associated with that theMuslim Fundamentalist world in a last stand using its form of religious inspired terrorism is now trying to beat back the Western material virus it feels is capturing its Muslim souls.

The East or so called Muslim world lost when it turned on its own people. instead of as in the past trying to use Israel to blame everything on.

Israel and Netanyahu openly stated its war with Hamas was no solution, just a temporary delay. He has stated over and over again that the only way to achieve peace is to disarm terrorists and have them replaced by civilians entering into join economic projects with their so called enemy the Israelis.

Israel proved this highly effective in the past in Gaza and when Palestinians held off on terrorism, roads,s chools, mosques,hospitals, greenhouses were built. people had jobs and went into Israel and worked and peace was achieved through mutual grass roots economic projects.

Hamas deliberately blew that all up. Terrorists like Hamas do not want peace. They need chaos, violence and fear-without these elements, like fire with no oxygen it would cease to ignite and exist.

Winning civilians over with mutual work projects is effective .Blowing them up is not.

The world's most successful empires to last had to build elaborate networks of mutual economic benefit through trade.

I would not expect Big Guy to understand that. He still is on the level of projecting onto me his belief that all conflicts are defined by good v.s. bad, and killing innocent people is effective.

Will ISIS require a Truman like tactic such as a nuclear weapon attack. No. The theatres of conflict are as different as night and day.

The only thing similar between Japan Imperilaists and ISIS is that they both believe they are superior in culture to others.

Edited by Rue
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It is getting more and more difficult to separate the good guys from the bad guys in Iraq. It now appears that the anti-ISIS Shia paramilitary groups, supported by the current Iraqi government which we are supporting with our Canadian airpower, are now torturing and killing Sunni civilians as a message to ISIS.

http://www.aljazeera.com/humanrights/2014/10/iraq-shia-fighters-guilty-war-crimes-2014101311251478369.html

So on one side we got people cutting the heads off civilians and on the other, people handcuffing then torturing and crushing peoples heads. I believe that both groups are heading in the wrong direction! :D

I think we are supporting the guys doing the handcuffing, torturing and head crushing.

We are being played like a fine fiddle.

Edited by Big Guy
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That leaves 63% disillusioned with politics. All the more reason to vote to keep us as a Peacekeeping nation.

Why is it, that you can't not remember we were never a peace keeping nation, but a nation of warriors.
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I was watching the coverage of this war on the talk shows to-day. The Chief of the Pentagon was on saying that "the ISIL enemy is BLENDING into part of the disenfranchised Sunni population". Later there was video of ISIL fighters (or government officials) distributing food and medical supplies to the villagers. Some hospitals are open and manned by Islamic physicians.

ISIL/ISIS is apart of the disenfranchised Sunni population..........As to said video, if true, clearly there is no need for the rest of the World to donate any further food and medical aid than, and the locals have nothing to fear with the coming Winter...

The worst and dumbest thing that we could do is to underestimate the enemy. Everything that I have heard from Washington and Ottawa indicates that these guys just don't know what is going on. BTW, now the USA is dispatching Apache helicopters into the defence of Baghdad. They may as well send ground troops in and make it official.

What do you hear? Frankly, America and friends won't publicly relay their detailed plans for combating ISIS, for what I feel, are obvious reasons.......As to the use of Apaches, that is not without risk, but over open ground and a night, can provide much needed direct fire support to the Iraqi forces. With ground troops, as to conventional forces, I disagree, but special forces supporting both the Iraqi army and Kurds, I'd be surprised if they were not already on the ground.

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Often today,military historians like to trace bac ktoday's terrorists to the Viet Cong, or more accurately the Maoist guerillas. Neither engaged in attacks outside their borders. Yes they engaged in attacks on civilians. Yes Hezbollah very much borrows the train tracks and tunnels it has built to move its rockets around based on the Viet Cong as did Hamas.

Mostly agree. The one caveat is that the Viet Cong helped modern, "outside border" terrorists leap the psychological divide into attacking civilians with impunity. Hitler and Stalin were, however, the true progenitors.

Yes there can be a fine line but the Viet Cong never openly defeated one on one the US Armed Forces. The Americans in fact defeated themselves.

The Americans turned on themselves. Their internal civil rights movement and internal political dissent and corruption destroyed their own armed forces. They did lose if you want a psychological war to drugs but their own armed forces inflicted much of the LSD experiments as we later found out.

It wasn't only drug use. The problem also was that our best and brightest draftees resisted going to war. With good reason. One of the reasons I support the use of mercenaries is that it is economic folly to put $200,000 in higher education onto the battlefield. Other than a situation such as WW II, where the U.S.'s soil was attacked, that's just not going to happen.

Viet Cong tactics were highly effective against conventional armies in the jungle yes, of course, but that is not what won the war.

Had the US wanted to win the war at the time, and had no internal opposition they could have crushed North Vietnam, They could not because of internal restraints brought on by both interventions from China and the Soviet Union but most importantly opposition from their own people.

Back in the day there was a lot of coffee-shop talk about differentiating defensive and offensive war. War is war and you can't send in soldiers just to act as sitting ducks for attack.

Killing civilians does not win wars. To say killing civilians is an effective tactic to win wars has no historic basis.

Here we disagree, at least in part.

The civilized world has always tried to limit the bloodshed of war initially. During the Civil War, Union forces took no steps to occupy Virginia or North Carolina prior to their long-delayed secession from the Union. During World War II, much time was spent in both the European and Atlantic theatres on peripheral engagements with enemy troops, some at great cost of Allied life. In the Pacific theatre of WW II, how many Americans died at Guadalcanal, Midway, and Iwo Jima that could have been saved had the atom bomb been available for use earlier?

Both the Civil War and WW II ended when the victors became serious about fighting. General Sherman's "March to the Sea", which devastated large swaths of Georgia, convinced the remaining Confederates that their cause was hopelss. The Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki attacks, in my view, for the first time convinced the German and Japanese people, respectively, that their "leadership" was taking them one place; to the grave.

For war to end, the ultimate victors must prosecute it to the maximum extent possible. I am not advocating attacking supermarkets and skyscrapers deliberately. However, we cannot let the presence of civilian facilities stop a war effort. If people are inconvenienced they will find a way to get their governments to stop the madness. (This portion partially borrowed from this previous post %5Blink%5D).

Once the cell phone infiltrated the Middle East it brought with it Western materialism and all the values associated with that and the Muslim Fundamentalist world is in a last stand using its form of religious inspired terrorism to try beat back the Western material virus it feels is capturing its Muslim souls.

The East or so called Muslim warl lost when it turned on its own people. Muslim terrorism will continue to play havoc for some time but the longer the cell phone and internet spread the Western materialist world's values, inch by inch the Muslim terrorists will find themselves being surrounded by more and more Coke and MacDonald's signs.

Actually those are driving these fearful primitives further into the Stone Age.
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Some people are wondering why Turkey has been criticized for not helping the Kurds in Kobani Syria. Turkish tanks are sitting just across the border from Syria, watching the Kurds getting pounded in Kobani. But at Hakkari and Baglica Turkey, where the Kurdish militant PKK is fighting the Turks, Turkish F-16 and F-4 warplanes have bombed Kurdish PKK rebel targets.

The air strikes on Daglica were in response to PKK shelling of a military outpost, the armed forces said.

Kurds are furious at Turkey's inaction as Islamic State (ISIS) militants attack the Syrian border town of Kobane. Fighters from the PKK (Kurdistan Workers' Party) have been aiding Kurdish YPG militia in Kobane and Turkey has refused to help supply its long-standing enemy with weapons or allow Kurdish fighters to enter Syria.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29611582

So, are you ready;

The bad guys ISIS are killing the good guys Kurds in Kobane in Syria. The also good guys Turks (part of the coalition making them our friends in fighting) are not helping the other good guys Kurds in Kobane because the other kind of good guy Kurds in the Kurdistan Worker's Party who want out of Turkey are fighting and killing some Turks.

This is what we are sending our air fighters into.

We are being played like a fine fidlle.

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It is getting more and more difficult to separate the good guys from the bad guys in Iraq. It now appears that the anti-ISIS Shia paramilitary groups, supported by the current Iraqi government which we are supporting with our Canadian airpower, are now torturing and killing Sunni civilians as a message to ISIS.

http://www.aljazeera.com/humanrights/2014/10/iraq-shia-fighters-guilty-war-crimes-2014101311251478369.html

So on one side we got people cutting the heads off civilians and on the other, people handcuffing then torturing and crushing peoples heads. I believe that both groups are heading in the wrong direction!

I think we are supporting the guys doing the handcuffing, torturing and head crushing.

We are being played like a fine fiddle.

Yup, especially in Canadas case we ARE getting played like a fiddle. This is the exact same war we had the common sense to stay out of in 2003. Retarded Canadians support it now because they got all emotional about some videos on YouTube. Our involvement in this is an act of unbridled idiocy and anyone that thinks its going to have anything but negative consequences is an idiot.

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Some people are wondering why Turkey has been criticized for not helping the Kurds in Kobani Syria. Turkish tanks are sitting just across the border from Syria, watching the Kurds getting pounded in Kobani. But at Hakkari and Baglica Turkey, where the Kurdish militant PKK is fighting the Turks, Turkish F-16 and F-4 warplanes have bombed Kurdish PKK rebel targets.

The Turkish dynamic is far from unknown, and was made clear during the '03 invasion.......I'm surprised that they even allowed the Americans the use of their airbases to strike ISIS.......

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Yup, especially in Canadas case we ARE getting played like a fiddle. This is the exact same war we had the common sense to stay out of in 2003. Retarded Canadians support it now because they got all emotional about some videos on YouTube. Our involvement in this is an act of unbridled idiocy and anyone that thinks its going to have anything but negative consequences is an idiot.

As are people that feel the allowance of the entire Middle East to lose the semblance of stability found there, and in turn, the follow on effects to the World's economy..........

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What do you hear? Frankly, America and friends won't publicly relay their detailed plans for combating ISIS, for what I feel, are obvious reasons.

We know what kind of plans the Americans have for dealing with these sunni insurgents because we watched the try to fight these same guys for 10 years... they failed even with trillions of dollars to spend and hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground.

The "coalition of retards that fail to learn from history" will have an easy enough time taking out ISILs pathetic battlefield assets, and the coaltion will be able to dust off its fancy little "mission accomplished" banner over that part... again. But then ISIL will just fade into all these sunni cities and either lay low for a bit or fight as urban insurgents... again. And anything the US or the Shia, or the kurds do will simply serve to help ISIL by deepening the sectarian divide over there. Even Sunnis that are not sympathetic to ISIL now, will be after they see foreign troops being deployed to force them to accept either Assad or the Iranian proxy that serves as the central Iraqi government.

If they had any good plans for dealing with this group then they would have dealt with them years ago. They dont... and they didnt.

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As are people that feel the allowance of the entire Middle East to lose the semblance of stability found there, and in turn, the follow on effects to the World's economy..........

I dont buy that argument... that we should do something incredibly stupid just for the sake of doing something. Sometimes it IS better to let people fight their own civil wars.

We dont bring stability... we destroy it. ISIL is a perfect example of that. This is EXACTLY what people who dreamed up, or supported the 2003 invasion were told was going to happen.

Just remember I told you this when our "deer in the headlights" civilian leadership, and our pathetic 4 planes achieve absolutely nothing of note.

Edited by dre
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We know what kind of plans the Americans have for dealing with these sunni insurgents because we watched the try to fight these same guys for 10 years... they failed even with trillions of dollars to spend and hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground.

And we know what worked and what didn't........American troops policing Iraqis........Frankly, post invasion, the biggest mistake the Americans made was the disbanding of the Iraqi army.

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We dont bring stability... we destroy it. ISIL is a perfect example of that. This is EXACTLY what people who dreamed up, or supported the 2003 invasion were told was going to happen.

Just remember I told you this when our "deer in the headlights" civilian leadership, and our pathetic 4 planes achieve absolutely nothing of note.

So, in your mind, leaving ISIS, with the possibility of a much larger regional war between Shia/Sunni/Kurds/Turks etc, is the better option? And what would, in your view such chaos do to Middle East oil exports that the World economy is dependent upon?

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