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This week in Islam


kimmy

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34 minutes ago, Argus said:

I think the likes of Hardner and dialamah would actually be happier living in Iran or Afghanistan. They'd finally get to be a member of an oppressed minority! Oh glory be! And they could revel in all that wonderful ethnic flavour with its unique restaurants! What a rich cultural milieu it would be for them to savour!

I prefer Canada, where even assholes can express opinion and people are free to express their faith - except in Quebec. 

Shall we talk about your totalitarian utopia, where capitalism reigns supreme, there are two classes - rich and poor - with the poor restricted from full participation in society because they are poor, and where anyone not white, rich and male is a second class citizen, subject to deportation if brown, or follows a non-Christian religion.  

Edited by dialamah
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2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Marocc's assertion that there is only one way to interpret Islam and all the rest are "wrong" is as false as your assertion that ISIS members throwing gays off roofs means Muslims want to kill gays.

There's no such thing as "interpreting Islam".

Since you're so confident about the interpretation matter, I invite you to present to me some examples of the differing interpretations that you find so significant and are so sure about:

-The object of interpretation

-Two or more differing interpretations of it

-source of these interpretations; a sect or madhab that holds them as correct.

-How the interpretation(s) affect(s) Islam or Muslims (possibly relating to terrorism).

-Why you think both or all interpretations are equally correct.

 

Edited by Marocc
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35 minutes ago, Marocc said:

There's no such thing as "interpreting Islam"

Of course there is.  To claim otherwise is to ignore the reality of Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Salafists, Wahhabism and other sects.  It's the same in Christianity; one Bible supports Protestant beliefs, Catholic beliefs, Mormons, Evangelicals and many others.   Most people believe that their particular beliefs are the "right" ones, based on the teachings of their holy book and/or prophets, whilst all others are wrong.  You are no different.

42 minutes ago, Marocc said:

How the interpretation(s) affect(s) Islam or Muslims (possibly relating to terrorism).

I do not believe terrorism is supported by any sect of Islam, other than the terror groups themselves.  Of course, they can find Quranic scripture and Hadiths to legitimize their claims, but to say they represent Islam is like claiming the group The Lord's Resistance Army represents Christianity.

46 minutes ago, Marocc said:

I invite you to present to me some examples of the differing interpretations that you find so significant and are so sure about

Hijab; my sister (converted to Islam around 20 years ago) has 4 Muslim sisters-in-law, all raised in Egypt as Muslims.  One of them wears the hijab in public sometimes; two always wear it in public, but not in front of male family members - their hair is covered, but I wouldn't say invisible.  The last one is very conservative; you cannot see any of her hair and her dress is also much more conservatively styled.  As well, she feels it appropriate to wear hijab in front of male family members.   Quite different interpretations of how/when to wear Hijab, wouldn't you agree?

Of course, you may not find this "significant", and perhaps it is not.  I am not well versed enough in Islam or it's many different sects to analyze how and why they are different.  The mere existence of multiple groups all claiming to adhere to Islam is enough to prove that Islam is as open to interpretation as any other religion.  

I do not expect you to understand this or accept it; most religious people have great difficulty in acknowledging that someone else's beliefs might be just as valid, genuine and acceptable as their own.  Somehow religious people seem to think that God is as ego-driven, jealous and exclusionary as imperfect people are.  One thing I prefer about Islam over Christianity is that there is some support for allowing non-Islamic people the right to God's love and entry into heaven, even if they are Jews or Christians.  Sadly, too many Muslims forget this little detail and feel justified in attacking those of a different faith, figuratively and literally.

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6 hours ago, Marocc said:

To some extent. Countries have a right to decide on their own laws and of course a person visiting must abide by those rules.

They could be wrong though.  Just because a law is in place doesn't mean it is right.

These arent interpretations of the Qur'an but implementation of sharia and and best or worst interpretations of hadith.

Same thing.  It's sophistry to state otherwise.

The punishment for blasphemy depends on the particular situation. Apostate, nothing happens, homosexual - I don't know, adulterers - I also am not sure.

There should be no punishment of any kind for any of the above.

 

 

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4 hours ago, dialamah said:

It wasn't 90% when I was there, and its still not 90%.  It is more than half, maybe 70% of the women she sees, according to my sister. 

Who lives in an urban area. The numbers would be closer to 100% in rural areas, so works out to 90%

4 hours ago, dialamah said:

You continue to say moronic things, Argus.  My point isn't that Muslims don't believe in Islam, but that just like Chriatianity, there are multiple beliefs and practices, depending on how each individual Muslim interprets Islam.  You and others claiming that only the most extreme acts of cruelty or oppression represents Islam and Muslims is what I take issue with.

Yes, well, we say that because of what the polling of Muslims throughout the world says, and because of the behaviour and laws of Muslim countries. If there wasn't a deep and widespread belief in the inferiority of women among Muslims then all 50 Muslim states would not have laws that treat men and women differently. If there wasn't a deep and widespread support for the belief non-Muslims are not to be trusted then all 50 Muslim states would not have different laws for Muslims and non-Muslims. If Muslims did not support the prohibition on gays then all fifty Muslim states would not criminalize homosexuality.

It's not like we're making this up! FIFTY Muslim countries across the world, and they all treat women and infidels as less than Muslims. And the people MOST likely to support that are the ones so devoted to Islam they wear special garments everywhere they go every day of their lives.

My logic is impeccable. Yours is non-existent.

 

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3 hours ago, dialamah said:

I prefer Canada, where even assholes can express opinion and people are free to express their faith - except in Quebec. 

Shall we talk about your totalitarian utopia, where capitalism reigns supreme, there are two classes - rich and poor - with the poor restricted from full participation in society because they are poor, and where anyone not white, rich and male is a second class citizen, subject to deportation if brown, or follows a non-Christian religion.  

Whenever you lose an argument (which is almost all the time) you start making stuff up and trying to move the yardsticks onto something else to try to cover up your defeat. You never learned how to just lose gracefully and slink away with your tattered dignity.

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5 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

I am conflicted on whether I love or hate that this thread has been going on for so long. It's quite amazing that this problem has been going of for so long, without any sign of appeasement. 

Islamophobia has a very enduring quality apparently.  There's people who have beliefs and then there's people who's beliefs have them.

The thread's a real legacy alright perhaps kimmy should have started a separate forum on the topic.

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13 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

I am conflicted on whether I love or hate that this thread has been going on for so long. It's quite amazing that this problem has been going of for so long, without any sign of appeasement. 

It's still going on because the  the issues with Islam and ensuing problems are not going away, in fact they are increasing, especially as demographics change. 

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28 minutes ago, Argus said:

My logic is impeccable.

So, Pew research asks Muslims in Muslim countries:  "Can a person be homosexual and Muslim?"   Most Muslims say "No."  Argus decides this means that this means most Muslims would kill gay people because there was a widely shared news stories about ISIS extremists who killed Muslims.  

Pew research asks Muslims if they think Sharia law should be the law of the land *in their country*; most say yes.  Pew research says "Should Sharia apply to everyone, or just Muslims"  Most say - just Muslims.   Argus decides this means that Muslims want to chop off heads, stone women, kill non-believers even though Sharia varies widely in it's practices and implementation and the most extreme form is the rarest, and often not even enforced.  

Environics surveys Muslims in Canada, asking questions like "Do you go to Mosque" and "Do you wear a headscarf" and "Do you think men and women are equal" and "Do you think homosexuality should be allowed in society".  The survey results indicate that younger women go to Mosque more than their mothers, that younger women are more likely to wear a headscarf than their mothers, that younger Muslims are more accepting of homosexuality in society than their parents, and that the majority of younger Muslims believe in gender equality.  Argus decides this means that young Muslims in Canada are becoming more extreme, and less accepting of gender equality and homosexuality.  

You have no logic, Argus.

27 minutes ago, Argus said:

Whenever you lose an argument (which is almost all the time) you start making stuff up and trying to move the yardsticks onto something else to try to cover up your defeat. You never learned how to just lose gracefully and slink away with your tattered dignity.

Oh ... so when you insulted MH and I with your "Live in Afghanastan" rant, you'd lost the argument already?   Good to know.

 

 

Edited by dialamah
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There are 12 Muslim countries that will kill you for being LGBT

https://www.advocate.com/world/2016/5/27/12-countries-will-kill-you-being-lgbt#slide-0

and

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/homosexuality.aspx

Islam goes beyond merely disapproving of homosexuality. Sharia teaches that homosexuality is a vile form of fornication, punishable by death.
(It bears mentioning that this does not mean that every Muslim wants to kill every homosexual).

excerpted:

Zafar Bangash, an imam and journalist who serves as the Director of Contemporary Islamic Thought and president of an Islamic Society chapter in Canada, has openly called for gays to be stoned to death: "My brothers and sisters, it is not time to live in coexistence with them. It is time for us to pick up the stones to stone these people to death for the abomination that they are committing."

In 2016, an educated imam in Tunisia explained that while it may seem harsh, there is no ambiguity in Islam:

God is very straightforward about this — not we Muslims, not subjective, the Sharia is very clear about it, the punishment for homosexuality, bestiality or anything like that is death. We don’t make any excuses about that, it’s not our law — it's the Quran

 

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7 hours ago, dialamah said:

Of course there is.  To claim otherwise is to ignore the reality of Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Salafists, Wahhabism and other sects.  It's the same in Christianity; one Bible supports Protestant beliefs, Catholic beliefs, Mormons, Evangelicals and many others.   Most people believe that their particular beliefs are the "right" ones, based on the teachings of their holy book and/or prophets, whilst all others are wrong.  You are no different.

I do not believe terrorism is supported by any sect of Islam, other than the terror groups themselves.  Of course, they can find Quranic scripture and Hadiths to legitimize their claims, but to say they represent Islam is like claiming the group The Lord's Resistance Army represents Christianity.

Hijab; my sister (converted to Islam around 20 years ago) has 4 Muslim sisters-in-law, all raised in Egypt as Muslims.  One of them wears the hijab in public sometimes; two always wear it in public, but not in front of male family members - their hair is covered, but I wouldn't say invisible.  The last one is very conservative; you cannot see any of her hair and her dress is also much more conservatively styled.  As well, she feels it appropriate to wear hijab in front of male family members.   Quite different interpretations of how/when to wear Hijab, wouldn't you agree?

Of course, you may not find this "significant", and perhaps it is not.  I am not well versed enough in Islam or it's many different sects to analyze how and why they are different.  The mere existence of multiple groups all claiming to adhere to Islam is enough to prove that Islam is as open to interpretation as any other religion.  

I do not expect you to understand this or accept it; most religious people have great difficulty in acknowledging that someone else's beliefs might be just as valid, genuine and acceptable as their own.  Somehow religious people seem to think that God is as ego-driven, jealous and exclusionary as imperfect people are.  One thing I prefer about Islam over Christianity is that there is some support for allowing non-Islamic people the right to God's love and entry into heaven, even if they are Jews or Christians.  Sadly, too many Muslims forget this little detail and feel justified in attacking those of a different faith, figuratively and literally.

The different sects aren't interpretations of Islam. What I'm trying to say is that the very term "interpretation of Islam" just doesn't exist for a Muslim. Maybe for a non-Muslim just interested in studying about the religion. But Islam is a religion. Scripture can be interpreted but the religion cannot. Saying "interpretation of Islam" doesnt have any meaning.

What your sisters choose to wear doesn't come from interpretation. I asked you to name a sect or a madhab that holds interpretation x correct. Hijab in Egypt is more about fashion than faith as it is for many Muslims elsewhere in the world.

 

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Generosity and a helping hand still brings death to Jews

https://worldisraelnews.com/israel-spends-fortune-busing-muslims-to-temple-mount-terrorist-took-advantage/

The Israeli government paid bus companies 2.5 million shekels during Ramadan to transport Arabs from Judea and Samaria security checkpoints to the Temple Mount, Israeli newspaper Makor Rishon reported on Friday.

According to the report, one of the Muslims who took advantage of the free ride from the Qalandiya crossing point in northern Jerusalem was Yusuf Ahmed, who stabbed two Jews near the Damascus Gate of the Old City on May 31, the last Friday of Ramadan.

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8 hours ago, Marocc said:

The different sects aren't interpretations of Islam. What I'm trying to say is that the very term "interpretation of Islam" just doesn't exist for a Muslim. 

Ok, then how would Muslims describe the process of study and analysis of the Quran and hadiths that results in these different sects within Islam?  

8 hours ago, Marocc said:

I asked you to name a sect or a madhab that holds interpretation x correct.

Sunni and Shia.  They fight each other, both convinced they are correct.

8 hours ago, Marocc said:

Hijab in Egypt is more about fashion than faith as it is for many Muslims elsewhere in the world.

Where is it about faith rather than fashion?

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4 minutes ago, scribblet said:

Generosity and a helping hand still brings death to Jews

https://worldisraelnews.com/israel-spends-fortune-busing-muslims-to-temple-mount-terrorist-took-advantage/

The Israeli government paid bus companies 2.5 million shekels during Ramadan to transport Arabs from Judea and Samaria security checkpoints to the Temple Mount, Israeli newspaper Makor Rishon reported on Friday.

According to the report, one of the Muslims who took advantage of the free ride from the Qalandiya crossing point in northern Jerusalem was Yusuf Ahmed, who stabbed two Jews near the Damascus Gate of the Old City on May 31, the last Friday of Ramadan.

After you shoot children you have to compensate you know.

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4 minutes ago, Marocc said:

After you shoot children you have to compensate you know.

Well, sadly the Palestinians do kill their own children, especially when they are trying to bomb Israeli children and when building tunnels so they can get into Israel and kill more Jews including children. 

The Institute for Palestine Studies published a detailed report on Gaza’s Tunnel Phenomenon in the summer of 2012. It reported that tunnel construction in Gaza has resulted in a large number of child deaths.

“At least 160 children have been killed in the tunnels, according to Hamas officials”

 

 

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1 hour ago, scribblet said:

The Institute for Palestine Studies published a detailed report on Gaza’s Tunnel Phenomenon in the summer of 2012. 

From your link:  "UPDATE: A correction has been issued for this article regarding the claim that 160 children have died in Hamas tunnels. The figure is inaccurate. The figure represents the total number of deaths in the tunnels recorded by Hamas authorities as of 2012. The full text has been corrected, but the error remains in the PDF. "

In fact, 9 kids died in the tunnels, while the total death toll was 235.  

In the meantime:

Isreali forces kill 56 Palestinian kids in 2018.

11 more kids die at the hands of Isreal in first three months of 2019.

1500 Palestinian kids killed, 10,000 arrested by Isreal since 2000.

In the graph below, the red represents Palestinian children and the blue represents Israeli children.  Source.

 

SmartSelect_20190708-093523_Chrome.jpg

Edited by dialamah
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22 hours ago, Marocc said:

It means a barrier. The word is used in the Qur'an I think over a hundred times - never as a headscarf. That name was given to it much later. Its a barrier for instance between Muslims and non-Muslims and the people of Jannah and the people of Jahannam.

Here's an article purporting to explain the history of covering for Muslim women.  Basically it says that Muhammed borrowed it from a custom followed by Byzantine Christians and instituted it for only his wives only, after poor behavior by some of his followers.  Do you think this is a reasonably accurate explanation of the origins of the hijab?

Here is another article, saying that the command for women to cover is explicit in the Quran.  Would you agree this is accurate?  This is also an interesting article in that it lays out requirements for male modesty as well, yet it is women's attire that is under scrutiny in some Islamic countries.  

A third article, about the controversy of a thesis by Sheikh Mustapha Mohamed Rashed of Al Azhar University that disputed the claim of hijab being mandatory.  Do you think this thesis reflects the teaching of Islam and the Quran?

Edited by dialamah
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1 hour ago, dialamah said:

From your link:  "UPDATE: A correction has been issued for this article regarding the claim that 160 children have died in Hamas tunnels. The figure is inaccurate. The figure represents the total number of deaths in the tunnels recorded by Hamas authorities as of 2012. The full text has been corrected, but the error remains in the PDF. "

In fact, 9 kids died in the tunnels, while the total death toll was 235.  

 the graph below, the red represents Palestinian children and the blue represents Israeli children.  Source.

 

So it was only 9 kids, that makes it ok...    that of course doesn't include their own children killed while being used as cover and deliberately put in harms way.

https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Islamic-Jihad-admits-baby-pregnant-woman-killed-by-their-own-rockets-589001

Meanwhile, this week in Islam

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/muslim-lgbt-education-ban-birmingham-parkfield-community-school-islam-a8808826.html

 

 

Edited by scribblet
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