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This week in Islam


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56 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

No, it's the opposite.  It's great.  Freedom is great and we should be making it easier to choose rather than scapegoating and forcing binary choices.

You forgot the /sarcasm thing.

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) Ok.  How often do you see threads on here with thousands of posts blaming whiteness.

2) It's easy for you to say others should change their culture.

3) The point is that this thread exists, and exists for scapegoating.

1) That's the thing about Islam.  It's bad in a big way.  Entire countries run by religious law.  Death to blasphemers, homosexuals, apostates, on the books.  Utterly insane!  A few folks planning a dozen strong march under a confederate flag is worthy of note on an individual basis, but it's just not the same thing.  And very few people come to their defense.  With Islam, it seems the people who are willing to forget the very issues they care about most are everywhere.  It makes threads interesting and fun.

2) Not change their culture.  Change what they do.  Their culture will change by itself then.  Do you think white supremacist have an excuse by dint of their culture?

3) See 1) 

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2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

1) That's the thing about Islam.  It's bad in a big way.  Entire countries run by religious law.  Death to blasphemers, homosexuals, apostates, on the books.  Utterly insane!  A few folks planning a dozen strong march under a confederate flag is worthy of note on an individual basis, but it's just not the same thing.  And very few people come to their defense.  With Islam, it seems the people who are willing to forget the very issues they care about most are everywhere.  It makes threads interesting and fun.

2) Not change their culture.  Change what they do.  Their culture will change by itself then.  Do you think white supremacist have an excuse by dint of their culture?

I already explained to you the position of Islam on those death penalties. You're still insinuating they make Islam "bad in a big way".

Sharia comes out of Islam - not the other way around.

what do you want them to change?

religion?

culture?

what they do? What is it that they do? Besides for living their lives minding their own business..

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15 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Iran is accused of sponsoring terrorist groups. Nation invasion is old-school war.

Also I think the main issue with the ME is entirely a chess-board for superpowers to play around in, and ME countries are caught in the middle. The US might never invade Iran but we all know what the meddling is all about. Any US aggression toward Iran is a veiled attempt at casting hurt on China and the USSR.

This is how I see it.  It's all proxy wars between superpowers and has been for decades.  Yes Iran does sponsor terror, and so do the 'allies' the west supports. But it's never balanced to say that 'yes our guys are just as bad and we should stop supporting them'.

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9 minutes ago, Marocc said:

I already explained to you the position of Islam on those death penalties. You're still insinuating they make Islam "bad in a big way".

You didn't explain it very well.  They do make make Islam "bad in a big way".

Sharia comes out of Islam - not the other way around.

Yes, I know.

what do you want them to change?

religion?

culture?

what they do? What is it that they do? Besides for living their lives minding their own business..

Anything that dictates behaviour in anyone but themselves as individuals.  By a week Tuesday!

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23 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Sharia comes out of Islam - not the other way around.

Isn't that kind of the issue though?  Sharia derives from Islam and some versions of Sharia do call for some pretty brutal punishments.  I get that in some cases, these may be more symbolic than real and rarely, if ever, carried out - but in other cases those punishments are all too real.  

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3 minutes ago, Marocc said:

That phenomenon doesn't exist in human societies.

Ah.  So it's okay then?  I live in a country that won't let me drink and drive, so I can't complain about a country that won't allow homosexuals to live.

 

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1 minute ago, dialamah said:

Isn't that kind of the issue though?  Sharia derives from Islam and some versions of Sharia do call for some pretty brutal punishments.  I get that in some cases, these may be more symbolic than real and rarely, if ever, carried out - but in other cases those punishments are all too real.  

No. Sharia is man made. Islam is the religion given to mankind. People apply Sharia, and have always applied as they see fit. But while Islam is perfect, man is not. Sharia is not perfect. And sharia can be modified within the limits of Islam. Islam cannot be modified at all.

What punishment are 'all too real'?

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37 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

1) That's the thing about Islam.  It's bad in a big way.  Entire countries run by religious law.  Death to blasphemers, homosexuals, apostates, on the books.  Utterly insane!  

2) Not change their culture.  Change what they do.   

1) Theocracy and dictatorships are bad, yes.  Fundamental religion should be criticized, yes.  But a thread that says basically moderate Islam doesn't exist doesn't move this conversation forward in the right way.

2) Still, easy for you to tell people how to live.  The ones who actually change the most are the ones who come here and yet paradoxically this thread is about preventing that.

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5 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Ah.  So it's okay then?  I live in a country that won't let me drink and drive, so I can't complain about a country that won't allow homosexuals to live.

 

Do you live in a country that won't let you drink or drive?

you misunderstood me probably. I mean sociologically speaking, scientifically such a thing where a person is not affected by society does not exist.

Or maybe I misunderstood you?

 

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9 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

?  Do you really think theocracy is better?

We're obviously at cross purposes here.

I said: "Man, any religion that forces you to choose it must be the shits, eh? "

Not my most articulate offering, I'll grant you, but opposition to theocracy seems to come out loud and clear.

Edited by bcsapper
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3 minutes ago, Marocc said:

No. Sharia is man made. Islam is the religion given to mankind. People apply Sharia, and have always applied as they see fit. But while Islam is perfect, man is not. Sharia is not perfect. And sharia can be modified within the limits of Islam. Islam cannot be modified at all.

We can agree to disagree on the "perfection of Islam".  :)

I think the distinction you are trying to make between Islam itself and man-made Sharia law fails when supporters of Sharia law point to the teachings of the Quran and hadiths as justification.   But it's also true that there is widespread misunderstanding of Sharia law among non-Muslims, especially its variability and who is subject to it.

Quote

What punishment are 'all too real'?

Executions for apostasy, blasphemy, homosexuality, stoning for adultery etc, or limb removals for stealing in some Muslim majority countries.  They do happen, albeit probably not as often as Western media might have us believe.

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12 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Ah.  So it's okay then?  I live in a country that won't let me drink and drive, so I can't complain about a country that won't allow homosexuals to live.

 

 

Kinda scary when so-called normal folk support a religion that calls for subjugation, humiliation and eventual elimination of the Infidel, eh? And that's the "moderate version"....

:lol:

Three on one...you're entering Dog territory. 

TROP.jpg?1718

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10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1) Theocracy and dictatorships are bad, yes.  Fundamental religion should be criticized, yes.  But a thread that says basically moderate Islam doesn't exist doesn't move this conversation forward in the right way.

2) Still, easy for you to tell people how to live.  The ones who actually change the most are the ones who come here and yet paradoxically this thread is about preventing that.

1)Moderate Islam exists.  (Often those who are outspoken about it are greeted with horror and revulsion from many on the left, as well as those inside Islam) 

An even greater number of "I don't give a toss" Islam exists, I'm sure.  Islamic in name only, don't go to prayers, have bacon every now and then, couldn't care less about Sharia.  All religions have a lot of people like that.  But that's not what we're talking about.  Why would we?  It would get boring real fast.

2) Not me.  I'm not anti immigration and I don't care who comes in.  As long as anyone who breaks the law is kicked out again, I'm okay with it.  And before you ask, yes, after 35 years here, I still put myself in that category.

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7 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 

I think the distinction you are trying to make between Islam itself and man-made Sharia law fails when supporters of Sharia law point to the teachings of the Quran and hadiths as justification.   But it's also true that there is widespread misunderstanding of Sharia law among non-Muslims, especially its variability and who is subject to it.

Executions for apostasy, blasphemy, homosexuality, stoning for adultery etc, or limb removals for stealing in some Muslim majority countries.  They do happen, albeit probably not as often as Western media might have us believe.

The distinction doesn't fail just because someone points at the hadiths and the Quran. They must be interpreted correctly and the cases judged justly.

The distinction remains. And is particularly important to remember with your last paragraph.

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17 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Do you live in a country that won't let you drink or drive?

you misunderstood me probably. I mean sociologically speaking, scientifically such a thing where a person is not affected by society does not exist.

Or maybe I misunderstood you?

 

I do.  But I wouldn't anyway.

If you're going to be an absolutist and hold that a person has the right to choose whether or not to cross the road, and whether or not to burn that blasphemer, then there's not much I can say.  A person has to know right from wrong to start with.

You didn't misunderstand me.

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6 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I do.  But I wouldn't anyway.

If you're going to be an absolutist and hold that a person has the right to choose whether or not to cross the road, and whether or not to burn that blasphemer, then there's not much I can say.  A person has to know right from wrong to start with.

You didn't misunderstand me.

 

On video...that moderate religion executed thousands of 'apostates' by the Tigris River...the river ran red. They all cheered. Looked like a scene from a horror movie...

Yeah...we need that here.

Edited by DogOnPorch
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22 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Kinda scary when so-called normal folk support a religion that calls for subjugation, humiliation and eventual elimination of the Infidel, eh? And that's the "moderate version"....

:lol:

Three on one...you're entering Dog territory. 

TROP.jpg?1718

I have to go to work, too.

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10 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I do.  But I wouldn't anyway.

If you're going to be an absolutist and hold that a person has the right to choose whether or not to cross the road, and whether or not to burn that blasphemer, then there's not much I can say.  A person has to know right from wrong to start with.

You didn't misunderstand me.

Well there isn't any country in the world as far as I know, that doesn't allow women to drive. Maybe you have other reasons then..

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44 minutes ago, Marocc said:

The distinction doesn't fail just because someone points at the hadiths and the Quran. They must be interpreted correctly and the cases judged justly.

I don't agree that you can simply draw a line between Islam and the choices made by authorities imposing Sharia law, whether government or clerics.  They are the representatives and interpreters of Islam for billions of people world wide, Muslim and non-Muslim.  If death for apostasy or homosexuality is "not" Islamic, then Muslims should object vehemently to it being included as part of Sharia wherever it is.  Do they?  If they do not, or if they excuse its "wrongness" because Islam is perfect and Sharia administered by people is not, then they too misrepresent Islam.  If these things are Islamic and accurately represented in Sharia, then those who believe Islam promotes brutal punishment are not wrong.

Either Sharia represents Islam accurately or it does not.  If it does not, then Muslims should not be following it, imo.

Quote

The distinction remains. And is particularly important to remember with your last paragraph.

I understand that it's not really Islam's concern if we non-Muslims don't "get it".  And that may have worked if Muslims were not dispersing around the world in the shadow of extremist attacks in Western countries.  I know there are efforts around the world to change the perception of Islam as stuck in the 14th century, remaining backward and ignorant.  If that is to be successful, if Muslims want to change that perception, they and their leaders will have to do more than say "Islam is perfect, Sharia law isn't but we support it because the Quran and Hadiths say stuff."  Without that extra effort, too many Muslim people in Western countries will feel the pain of hatred and persecution that they do not deserve, imo.

Edited by dialamah
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