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Canada Has A Labour Skills Shortage – Maybe


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Specific technical training is not supposed to be the mainstay of a degree. That said, it's pointless for students to learn using obsolete technology so technical degrees indeed try to keep pace with technology demand.

A lot of for-profit training schools do not, and are happy to churn out graduates whose skills aren't needed by the marketplace. ( I'm thinking specifically of Music and Video production schools here. )

The useless degrees people refer to are usually arts degrees, but I'm still looking for specifics on that. I think general degrees are generally less employable, but individuals can always make something from that kind of start.

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This is quite frankly, wrong. The education system, including universities and colleges, work directly with industries to tailor their programs to meet the needs of the labour force. Industry should not take steps to meet the requirements of the education system. This is totally backwards. Take for example, the computer industry. Way back when, we had cobol and rpg programmers. As technology progressed, industries were asking post secondary institutions to provided graduates with knowledge of more progressive computer languages (ie java, .net). Colleges and universities had to comply and did indeed eliminate cobol and rpg programming courses and introduced more current courses.

University is not job training, nor should it be. Companies should be footing the bill to train their own employees. Full stop.

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Specific technical training is not supposed to be the mainstay of a degree. That said, it's pointless for students to learn using obsolete technology so technical degrees indeed try to keep pace with technology demand.

A lot of for-profit training schools do not, and are happy to churn out graduates whose skills aren't needed by the marketplace. ( I'm thinking specifically of Music and Video production schools here. )

The useless degrees people refer to are usually arts degrees, but I'm still looking for specifics on that. I think general degrees are generally less employable, but individuals can always make something from that kind of start.

The vast majority of lawyers start out with Arts degrees before going to law school. The majority of teachers start out with Arts degrees. Most government employees have Arts degrees. Stephen Harper, as an "economist," has an Arts degree.

I suspect most of the people that whine about Arts degrees being useless have absolutely no idea what the hell an Arts degree is.

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I've heard some many statements on this topic and one was the companies and the feds created, what looked like a shortage so the companies could pay less for workers. This was the way until last year, it was discovered and the feds had to backtrack and make companies pay equally. These foreign workers come from India, China and the Philippines. I can also see some areas of shortage because of education and I've heard that until one is going to be a professional, like doctor, lawyers, etc. College will get one a good job and not the high debt that university does.

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The vast majority of lawyers start out with Arts degrees before going to law school. The majority of teachers start out with Arts degrees. Most government employees have Arts degrees. Stephen Harper, as an "economist," has an Arts degree.

I suspect most of the people that whine about Arts degrees being useless have absolutely no idea what the hell an Arts degree is.

Also, some business degrees I think. Rest assured that I believe, as you seem to, that this is knee-jerk reaction to a myth that hippies and long-haired academics are ruining our society.

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The democratization of "expertise" comes with a severe distrust for actual experts who spend all of their time studying these things. Hobbyists want to wade into these debates because the internet is a giant soap box, knowing just enough to be a danger to themselves and everyone else.

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The Arts degree is like the education version of the minimum wage job. Many people have them, but they're not in demand. It's basic economics. If you want a job with a higher pay, get an education or a skill that's in demand.

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The democratization of "expertise" comes with a severe distrust for actual experts who spend all of their time studying these things.

Perhaps this is because the experts have failed to demonstrate the integrity that one would expect from an expert and instead act like narrow minded fanatics pushing a political agenda.

If experts wish to have their POV respected then they better stick to the area of their expertise and studiously avoid trying to pass off their personal opinions in unrelated fields as something that must be listened to because they are an "expert".

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Perhaps this is because the experts have failed to demonstrate the integrity that one would expect from an expert and instead act like narrow minded fanatics pushing a political agenda.

If experts wish to have their POV respected then they better stick to the area of their expertise and studiously avoid trying to pass off their personal opinions in unrelated fields as something that must be listened to because they are an "expert".

Is that your expert opinion, Tim?

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Not if they can't attract people to the jobs with the benefits, they're not. They complain that there's a labour shortage. You can't have massive unemployment and a labour shortage. Peter F is exactly correct. There's a shortage of labour at the prices industry wants to pay. That's like saying there's a Maserati shortage because they don't sell them at a price you're willing to pay for it. There's not a shortage, you just don't want it bad enough to pay the asking price.

Depends where you live perhaps.

Industry pays good money in AB, and there is and has been a labour shortage(skilled and unskilled) for many years in many ways. It is now much the same in SK and soon in BC. AB has recruited across Canada for skilled trades people for many years and it appears that everybody willing to move has done so already. If that leaves you skilled and unemployed in Ontario or elsewhere, tough shit. Your choice.

Work is regional and often transient. Its the way it is, and actually that is how it has always been in my lifetime. What has changed in the last half century is mostly expectations. Everybody seems to expect now that you can go to school, get something useless on a piece of paper, then start your life close to all that is near and comfy with a good secure job c/w corporate pension where you can work to 53 and retire to a 35 year retirement on fat pension- all withinh walking distance of Grandmas house. Those fantasies don't exist any more.

If you want a life with disposable income, pepare to follow the work around this great and large country.

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Depends where you live perhaps.

Industry pays good money in AB, and there is and has been a labour shortage(skilled and unskilled) for many years in many ways. It is now much the same in SK and soon in BC. AB has recruited across Canada for skilled trades people for many years and it appears that everybody willing to move has done so already. If that leaves you skilled and unemployed in Ontario or elsewhere, tough shit. Your choice.

Work is regional and often transient. Its the way it is, and actually that is how it has always been in my lifetime. What has changed in the last half century is mostly expectations. .

This of course is somewhat full of hooey since the biggest restriction for inter provincial movement are the barrier put up by provincial licencing boards, think electricians, plumbers and so on skilled and lic'd sects.

Kind of silly, well no really silly and stupid, for say Alta Elec board wont recongnize a NS electricians papers. Or plumbers licence. Take your pick.

But hey, if these boards dont want to make it smoother for one to move and help out themselves and Alberta at the same time.....well tough shit right? Cuz ya know, paying through the nose is what they wind up doing, ergo everyone pays more.

Yup, tough shit.

Everybody seems to expect now that you can go to school, get something useless on a piece of paper, then start your life close to all that is near and comfy with a good secure job c/w corporate pension where you can work to 53 and retire to a 35 year retirement on fat pension- all withinh walking distance of Grandmas house. Those fantasies don't exist any more.

If you want a life with disposable income, pepare to follow the work around this great and large country

Everybody huh?

Considering the mere fact there might be.....might be one other person on this board who actually knows anyone who retired at 53, this is abject hyperbole

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The lack of transferability for some trades is indeed an issue. It makes some sense that a given cert board could ask for a few extra courses, after all the type of projects common in each province varies and competence in one does not automatically mean competence in another. But you're right, this is red tape mostly.

There is indeed both high unemployment and a labor shortage. The shortage is in areas the unemployed are not able to do and not willing to get qualified for.

The US is the perfect example. Millions of unemployed, yet millions of Indians imported to do jobs that require actual skill and hard work not found in the local population, yet highly demanded by it, of course.

The free market model would have employers paying more for labor when the demand is there, and recruiting from a wider pool. That should include international. What right do you have to a good job when an eager Pilipino is ready to work harder, longer, and have a better attitude about it? He should not be excluded just because you wanted to follow your 'passion' of international relations for your own fulfillment and social trendiness......so long as you could fit the page turning in between American Idol commercials and pub crawls. Sorry, the world has a massive oversupply of people with half-thought opinions on how things should be. What it needs is workers who can deliver what others want.

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This of course is somewhat full of hooey since the biggest restriction for inter provincial movement are the barrier put up by provincial licencing boards, think electricians, plumbers and so on skilled and lic'd sects.

No, AB is not Quebec.

Have you never heard of the Red Seal program, which allows trades to work anywhere in the country?. It's only been around for about 50 years. How can you be ignorant of it?

https://tradesecrets.alberta.ca/experiencedworkers/interprovincial-red-seal/

There are many thousands of tradespersons here working out of AB union halls from all over Canada. The massive industrial projects of the past couple decades could not possibly have been built otherwise.

If there is work elsewhere in Canada and people refuse to go to it, I say again: tough shit for them.

I have moved long distance in Canada twice to get work because there wasn't any where I lived.

Wanna guess where I lived before I moved to feed myself?

Alberta.

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The free market model would have employers paying more for labor when the demand is there, and recruiting from a wider pool. That should include international.

That's just perfect, isn't it? Companies recruiting people from impoverished countries for pennies a day. You would love that wouldn't you? A giant race to the bottom. Canadians should be happy with a bowl of rice a day and a leaky shack for accommodations.

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That's just perfect, isn't it? Companies recruiting people from impoverished countries for pennies a day. You would love that wouldn't you? A giant race to the bottom. Canadians should be happy with a bowl of rice a day and a leaky shack for accommodations.

Good strawman.

It's incredibly arrogant and selfish to assume you deserve the opportunity over the very poor, just because you happened to tumble out of a uterus within some given defined political borders.

Free trade and consequent outsourcing of labor, has improved the standards of living more than anything else in history.

Edited by hitops
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Free trade for corporations to get cheap labour. When are we going to have unfettered immigration, allowing the free movement of people the same way we allow the free movement of corporations? Consider that for a minute. We'll talk when you can imagine a free market that's actually free on both sides of the equation.

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Then you are the exact problem. You hired a graduate to run your project as I suspect it was cheaper than paying for the experience or paying to develop that student before dropping him/her into the soup. Textbook of employer not contributing to their own success and blaming; parents, school, government that they aren't providing cheap labour.

You hire new graduates for controlled tasks so that you can develop other skills. You're hiring for a learner/worker not a ready-made manager......even McDonald's understands that.

Nah.

The engineering schools fill their heads with bullshit that they are the bull goose loony on every job.

Iron Ring.

Big egos.

No skills beyond those I already mentioned, a short list.

It isn't just engineers.

What exactly am I paying a professional salary for? To spend megabucks on more training?

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What exactly am I paying a professional salary for? To spend megabucks on more training?

To be matter of fact......yes. Its called investment in an asset........or are you a subscriber to the Wal-mart brand of mgmt; unreliable, costly in the long term but cheap enough to get you through the fiscal quarter will do. Your fault if you think "a professional salary" is not in your price range........not astute at negotiation I guess.

Again if you believe the inflated ego professionals serve you better.....to each their own......pay a little more.....might get a little better.

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Free trade for corporations to get cheap labour. When are we going to have unfettered immigration, allowing the free movement of people the same way we allow the free movement of corporations? Consider that for a minute. We'll talk when you can imagine a free market that's actually free on both sides of the equation.

But that's not what you actually want. You want the double standard - on the one side wealthy people should not be able to protect their position, and the wealth should be redistributed more. But on the other - that concept stops dead in its tracks when it comes to the lower end domestically, you don't want redistributing wealth and opportunity to the even less fortunate elsewhere.

The cheap labor that you're talking about has lifted literally hundreds of millions out of dire poverty onto the first step of the economic ladder. When you talk about restricting the 'cheap labor', you're basically making the case for the alternative - starvation and destitution. A single year of operations in the current model of many overseas operations, transfers more sustainable economic improvement to the poor than the entire history of foreign aid combined. For people working in western countries, the amount of money they send home dwarfs foreign aid and charity work by many fold. There is, as a fact of sheer measurable quantify of money transferred, no better way to get help to the poorest.

Edited by hitops
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But that's not what you actually want. You want the double standard - on the one side wealthy people should not be able to protect their position, and the wealth should be redistributed more. But on the other - that concept stops dead in its tracks when it comes to the lower end domestically, you don't want redistributing wealth and opportunity to the even less fortunate elsewhere.

Yes...this is spot on. The ideology falls flat when confronted with this reality. I guess "union brotherhood" stops at the border !

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  • 3 weeks later...

It's human nature. The bigger guy is always wrong, until you are the bigger guy.

I can't say I actually understand your position. It seems to be that companies should be able to do whatever they want to maximize profit, and that hindering them is somehow selfish? But human society all function with regard to the well-being of those societies. Charity towards other societies is all very well and good, but all societies function principally on the basis of the collective well-being of their own members.

What you are suggesting is that our society forego this and instead act in a way which goes against the best interests of our society and its members. That's simply a non-starter. We don't put people in charge in order for them to do well by the poor in Bangladesh. We put them in charge to do well by us.

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There was an item about the "temporary foreign worker' program in the Globe today, documenting how some employers are replacing minimum wage, low skill, easily hired workers, with foreign workers who they can pay up to 15% less. While stories about restaurants hiring foreign workers are clearly an agregious violation of the intended purpose of the program I'm sure that misuse is much more widespread.

If you believe in capitalism, as almost everyone on the right and centre professes, then you have to accept both sides of the coin. A shortage of workers = companies having to pay more to those workers = more workers entering that industry in order to satisfy the demand. This is a fundamental principal, just as demand which exceeds supply of goods leads to increased pricing and more producers.

What a lot of companies seem to be doing is short-circuiting this in order to keep wages low, despite a shortage of people willing to do a given job, by bringing in impoverished third world people to do the work at even lower wages. This is simply not in the interests of our economy in any way I can imagine. Bringing in temporary workers due to a skills shortage is one thing, but the numbers now in Canada (200,000 a year) are ridiculous.

I have very little sympathy for industry which bleats about shortages of workers to begin with, except in very rare specialties. If there's a shortage it's YOUR fault. It's up to schools and unviersities to provide general training, but industry is responsible for specific training, and it's been foregoing that responsibility for a long time now. The temporary foreign worker program is another way for them to not only avoid training but to dodge the wage rises that a lack of specific workers always brings.

I don't think the program should be shut down. But I do think it needs a drastic refit. To start with, being able to pay foreign workers 15% less is a non starter. I think instead they should be required to pay foreign workers 15% more. In addition, before hiring a foreign worker, and again, except in rare cases with specific, highly skilled jobs, a company should be required to hire just about anyone who wants the job, and then train them.

By way of comparison, in the federal government at the moment, there is a program called Workforce Adjustment. When an employee is declared surplus he or she goes on a priority hiring list. Any managers who want to hire a new employee have to check that list, and have to hire an employe from that list if they're of an equivilent skill level to what they need. With few exceptions, such as bilingualism, the manager cannot refuse to hire from the list. That means even if the worker doesn't know squat about the job, he still has to be hired, and be trained. The new employee has up to 2 years to learn the job. I think a variation of this should be used before employers can use the foreign worker program.

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