TTC Police Shooting

[Black Dog]

Do you know what "perhaps" means? And "wonder?" Because from your response, it doesn't appear as if you do.

Do you? Because all through this thread you've been quick to jump on people who have offered their personal opinions on the officer in question and the events of that night. indeed, your endless braying about the subversion of due process and the "lynch mobs" is based on nothing more than people giving their opinions in exactly the same way you gave your opinion as to what motivated the charges. But I guess you feel you and you alone reserve the right to speculate?

IOW according to you:

To make claims as to why the cop did it - without any evidence whatsoever? Conclusion-jumping subversion of due process!

To make claims as to why the charges were laid - without any evidence whatsoever? Aw heck, I'm just talking here!

Edited August 19, 2013 by Black Dog

[The_Squid]

My point is that perhaps second degree murder charges should never have come about, and the charge is just to pacify the 'YouTube crowd' that seems to think the video is all they need to convict the officer.

You are perfectly fine making judgements on the Crown prosecutors without any evidence, but you can't bring yourself to make any judgements whatsoever on an officer based on video evidence.

Your opinion strikes me as hypocritical.

[guyser]

Do you? Because all through this thread you've been quick to jump on people who have offered their personal opinions on the officer in question and the events of that night.

Not quite.

If one were to call the kid mental, loco, off his meds, a kook or if you were to opine that the Cop will definitely not get any charges , then those words escaped any criticism.

[Guest American Woman]

And "perhaps" they tazed him in an attempt to cover up the need to shoot Yatim 9 times.

So if that's the case, why isn't that cop under scrutiny? Why are no charges being laid against him? Being tazed after receiving multiple gun shots wounds certainly didn't help Yatim's chances of survival. If that was the only reason he was tazed, certainly that would be grounds for charges too, would it not? But that's not the thing people are focusing on or in an uproar about, so I have to wonder, as I said, if the charges aren't mainly to pacify the 'YouTube crowd,' If it does, will it take the heat off of the department? Will it mean that things that should be done differently, such as training, will no longer be an issue? These are questions that I have.

Edited August 19, 2013 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

You are perfectly fine making judgements on the Crown prosecutors without any evidence, but you can't bring yourself to make any judgements whatsoever on an officer based on video evidence.

Your opinion strikes me as hypocritical.

I didn't make any judgments. Do you not know the difference between making a judgement and questioning something? Making a judgement would be declaring that the crown is doing this because ..... Questioning if the crown could be perhaps doing this because.... is not a judgement. You, and a few others here, might want to learn the difference between the two.

[Guest American Woman]

If one were to call the kid mental, loco, off his meds, a kook or if you were to opine that the Cop will definitely not get any charges , then those words escaped any criticism.

That's an outright false statement as I clearly said - in response TO YOU - that making judgments about Yatim was wrong, too. But in light of your comments here, that ironically seems to have escaped you.

[guyser]

so I have to wonder, as I said, if the charges aren't mainly to pacify the 'YouTube crowd,'

Not anything Ive read nor anyone talking has said this is to pacify anyone.(Apart from Police union bozos)

SIU are pro's who consult with the Crown to review the case details and evidence. There is no discussion of "hey lets just charge him so the public will get off our back"

Obviously they would know that any charges not sticking after the fact would only incite the masses.

Speculation....isnt a mandate of the SIU.

[Boges]

So if that's the case, why isn't that cop under scrutiny? Why are no charges being laid against him? Being tazed after receiving multiple gun shots wounds certainly didn't help Yatim's chances of survival. If that was the only reason he was tazed, certainly that would be grounds for charges too, would it not? But that's not the thing people are focusing on or in an uproar about, so I have to wonder, as I said, if the charges aren't mainly to pacify the 'YouTube crowd,' If it does, will it take the heat off of the department? Will it mean that things that should be done differently, such as training, will no longer be an issue? These are questions that I have.

You can opine about that all you want, but as with my tazing theory, you have no evidence to support your theory.

And if the charges are meant to pacify a group of outraged people then what will happen when he's acquitted?

The fact that charges were laid on Zimmerman didn't "pacify" people once it became apparent to everyone that the DA didn't have a reasonable chance of conviction. People were still outraged for a variety of reasons.

I would be just as outraged if charges were laid just because the SIU thought they'd be criticized if they didn't. It's a waste of public money.

Now public pressure might change the way police handle these situations in the future and that's the goal of the investigation Police Chief Bill Blair announced last week.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Boges

[Guest American Woman]

You can opine about that all you want,

Yes, I most certainly can.

[GostHacked]

This may very well lead to changes in how cops are trained. But with all the police that were on the scene, we have only one cop unloading his weapon.

Or something like this may have occurred.

[guyser]

That's an outright false statement as I clearly said

Woah....not everything is about you .

Including that post. Oh my...

[Guest American Woman]

Woah....not everything is about you .

Including that post. Oh my...

Let's recap, shall we? A response was made to a post that I made, and that response was directed at what I've said. You responded to said post saying judgments of Yatim were ignored. But yeah. To think that statement pertained to me was ridiculous on my part.

Good Lord.

[LonJowett]

I didn't make any judgments. Do you not know the difference between making a judgement and questioning something? Making a judgement would be declaring that the crown is doing this because ..... Questioning if the crown could be perhaps doing this because.... is not a judgement. You, and a few others here, might want to learn the difference between the two.

You have to be a judge to make a judgment. Forming a theory based on available evidence and presenting that theory is not a judgement. It's just another form of speculation.

[Guest American Woman]

You have to be a judge to make a judgment. Forming a theory based on available evidence and presenting that theory is not a judgement. It's just another form of speculation.

Nope. Making a claim, saying 'this is the way it is,' is a judgment. Saying the cop is trigger happy is a judgment. Getting inside the cop's head is a judgment, with absolutely no evidence whatsoever.Again, there is a whole lotta difference between a "theory" and all the claims that "we've seen enough to know."

[guyser]

Let's recap, shall we?

Sure lets....no wait, wrong again.

Still isn t all about you. Most of that post was our other resident expert derek, ya know......the one you dont castigate for his know all posts.

Im sure you feel that too is wrong of him (or anyone else for that matter) just not wrong enough to be taken to task.

[Charles Anthony]

Folks,

Stop making this discussion personal.

Ch. A.

[g_bambino]

Do you have any evidence to suggest there is not good reason for them to lay those charges?

The issue isn't actual charges being laid. It's the people who've appointed themselves as judge, jury, and executioner and come to the undoubted (in their minds) conclusion that the officer is a sick murderer. As The_Squid said, "t was clear to most people that the officer did not need to shoot the guy on the bus." One has to wonder, "clear" how? Most people have not seen what was recorded by the streetcar's security cameras; they haven't heard testimony from all the participants and witnesses; and they haven't heard a single word from the accused. Anyone not involved in the event and investigation who's determined for themselves, based on some YouTube videos and press articles, that the shooting was entirely unnecessary are letting their feelings of shock and/or self-righteousness get in the way of remembering the ancient and rational (since it protects us all equally) principle of our society that one is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty. Even Yatim's family has been graciously accepting of that.

[ed.: +]

Edited August 19, 2013 by g_bambino

[LonJowett]

Nope. Making a claim, saying 'this is the way it is,' is a judgment. Saying the cop is trigger happy is a judgment. Getting inside the cop's head is a judgment, with absolutely no evidence whatsoever.Again, there is a whole lotta difference between a "theory" and all the claims that "we've seen enough to know.

You appear to be arguing that it's okay to make theories. Just don't believe them.

Edited August 19, 2013 by LonJowett

[Wilber]

You have to be a judge to make a judgment. Forming a theory based on available evidence and presenting that theory is not a judgement. It's just another form of speculation.

I agree. Even cops are entitled to due process and a presumption of innocence until proved otherwise, regardless of how bad it may look.

[On Guard for Thee]

Believe me the cop will get due process, and he'll get it a hell of a lot faster than you or I would, and then he'll walk or get a slap.

What is obvious and damning in the video is why after the first 3 shots whereeupon the boy clearly fell to the floor, did the cop need to fire further 6 rounds? And the hideous part is the other moron using the tazer on a dieing man.

There were 20 or so cops there, a bunch of more charges should be laid in my view.

[ReeferMadness]

Although I'm not a big fan of our criminal system (please don't call it a "justice system"), I'm glad the charge was laid. It sends a message that there are limits to police power, even if not very many. Maybe the next time, someone who's clearly not in his or her right mind is in this situation, the police will look for alternatives to shooting.

[Guest American Woman]

The issue isn't actual charges being laid. It's the people who've appointed themselves as judge, jury, and executioner and come to the undoubted (in their minds) conclusion that the officer is a sick murderer. As The_Squid said, "t was clear to most people that the officer did not need to shoot the guy on the bus." One has to wonder, "clear" how? Most people have not seen what was recorded by the streetcar's security cameras; they haven't heard testimony from all the participants and witnesses; and they haven't heard a single word from the accused. Anyone not involved in the event and investigation who's determined for themselves, based on some YouTube videos and press articles, that the shooting was entirely unnecessary are letting their feelings of shock and/or self-righteousness get in the way of remembering the ancient and rational (since it protects us all equally) principle of our society that one is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty. Even Yatim's family has been graciously accepting of that.

[ed.: +]

It's like police union president Mike McCormack said: “This is exactly trial and conviction by YouTube. It’s significant, but it’s not the entire story.”

[Wilber]

Believe me the cop will get due process, and he'll get it a hell of a lot faster than you or I would, and then he'll walk or get a slap.

What is obvious and damning in the video is why after the first 3 shots whereeupon the boy clearly fell to the floor, did the cop need to fire further 6 rounds? And the hideous part is the other moron using the tazer on a dieing man.

There were 20 or so cops there, a bunch of more charges should be laid in my view.

Not from you obviously, you already have him convicted. Even cops I know think it looks bad but that doesn't automaticaly make him guilty.

[On Guard for Thee]

Justice needs to be applied evenly. Of course not by me, but by the courts. There seem to be numerous similar situations where a lot of doubt has been left.

Look at the video, do you think the kid needed to die? I won't convict him but hopefully the video will.

[eyeball]

The issue isn't actual charges being laid. It's the people who've appointed themselves as judge, jury, and executioner and come to the undoubted (in their minds) conclusion that the officer is a sick murderer.

No he was just way out of control. There are also people who feel this incident adds more weight to concerns that the power of the police along with other instruments of the government's authority are growing faster than our ability to rein it back in. You don't think that's an issue worth being concerned about?