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Get with the program Detroit!


Pliny

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It's not "just" urban decay. Cities don't just decay for no reason. The course Detroit followed has its causes.

Sure, but laying all at the feet of the auto industry just doesn't work. It probably started with "White Flight" decades ago.

-k

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Sure, but laying all at the feet of the auto industry just doesn't work. It probably started with "White Flight" decades ago.

-k

Maybe, but it cannot be denied that an industry that once employed tens or even hundreds of thousands to produce cars now does it with perhaps a 10th that number.

Here in Hamilton I remember when my dad was a steelworker. There were about 20,000 high paid steelworker jobs in this town. Now Stelco, once the largest and now owned by U S Steel, employs less than 500 guys at the local mills.

So that's 19,500 or so good jobs lost, along with all the spinoffs and all the taxes to the city. Hamilton tried to attract new manufacturing but for a variety of reasons were not very successful. It was also a bit like trying to sieve water - automation and new techniques in ALL areas of manufacturing have meant that they provide only a pittance of the jobs they once did.

Hamilton's politicians have not been much better than those of Detroit. We now have the highest property taxes of any Ontario city - higher than that of Burlington or Toronto. With steadily reducing business tax revenue the politicians had to get their money from somewhere.

Meanwhile, they spend it on things like flowers in the street medians. They look pretty but I think they are a safety hazard. They distract your eye from all the potholes! The main drag through the industrial part of town consistently takes 2nd place in the CAA survey every year for worst stretch of road.

They also seize photo ops of better stroller and bicycle access for the buses, which all can lower themselves to make it easier for the elderly and handicapped to board. There are so many large strollers and such that get on the buses that one day I watched them jam together in the aisle. Nobody could get on or off! It took the driver over 10 minutes to clear the jam and get the bus moving again.

Me, I couldn't help it. I just started laughing! It was all so obviously inevitable. The politicians think improved access will buy them votes but none of them think about how such things can WORK in the real world!

Meanwhile, the bus service is hopelessly in the red! The fares don't even cover 1/4 of the total budget.

I don't know if we will go as far down the chute as Detroit but don't see much difference between what their politicians have done and what those in Hamilton are doing right now.

Edited by Wild Bill
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Meanwhile, they spend it on things like flowers in the street medians. They look pretty but I think they are a safety hazard.

I'll tell you Detroit never spent money on flowers that's a big difference. I remember going to Tigers games each year during the late 80's/early 90's and having to wear thicker Kevlar each year. There was more steel in the windows than holding up the structure itself.
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Guest Derek L

If "the Big 3" were more successful and more people worked for them, it would just mean that more people would live in Detroit's suburbs. Most people who can afford to leave Detroit leave. That's not the fault of "the Big 3" or the UAW. Detroit has many successful and prosperous satellite communities. Those communities exist because people work in the Detroit region but they sure don't want to live in Detroit.

Entire neighborhoods have just vanished. Schools, hospitals, municipal services, law enforcement, just vanished from areas of the city. Homes just boarded up. People left and couldn't sell, so they just walked away. It's kind of like Chernobyl, except instead of nuclear radiation, it's just urban decay.

-k

To an extent, but industry didn’t flee to Dearborn or Troy, but to Southern RTW States and Mexico……..with the jobs leaving, so goes the people and tax revenue……

You add this to their last three mayors being either/or complete idiots and crooks:

bing0311.jpg

kwame-kilpatrick.jpg

young5.jpg

And there you go.

Edited by Derek L
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Guest Derek L

Maybe, but it cannot be denied that an industry that once employed tens or even hundreds of thousands to produce cars now does it with perhaps a 10th that number.

Here in Hamilton I remember when my dad was a steelworker. There were about 20,000 high paid steelworker jobs in this town. Now Stelco, once the largest and now owned by U S Steel, employs less than 500 guys at the local mills.

So that's 19,500 or so good jobs lost, along with all the spinoffs and all the taxes to the city. Hamilton tried to attract new manufacturing but for a variety of reasons were not very successful. It was also a bit like trying to sieve water - automation and new techniques in ALL areas of manufacturing have meant that they provide only a pittance of the jobs they once did.

Hamilton's politicians have not been much better than those of Detroit. We now have the highest property taxes of any Ontario city - higher than that of Burlington or Toronto. With steadily reducing business tax revenue the politicians had to get their money from somewhere.

Meanwhile, they spend it on things like flowers in the street medians. They look pretty but I think they are a safety hazard. They distract your eye from all the potholes! The main drag through the industrial part of town consistently takes 2nd place in the CAA survey every year for worst stretch of road.

They also seize photo ops of better stroller and bicycle access for the buses, which all can lower themselves to make it easier for the elderly and handicapped to board. There are so many large strollers and such that get on the buses that one day I watched them jam together in the aisle. Nobody could get on or off! It took the driver over 10 minutes to clear the jam and get the bus moving again.

Me, I couldn't help it. I just started laughing! It was all so obviously inevitable. The politicians think improved access will buy them votes but none of them think about how such things can WORK in the real world!

Meanwhile, the bus service is hopelessly in the red! The fares don't even cover 1/4 of the total budget.

I don't know if we will go as far down the chute as Detroit but don't see much difference between what their politicians have done and what those in Hamilton are doing right now.

Exactly Bill, look none other then the list of poor cities posted above:

1. Detroit , MI 32.5%

2. Buffalo , NY 29..9%

3. Cincinnati , OH 27.8%

4. Cleveland , OH 27.0%

5. Miami , FL 26.9%

That could read:

1. Automotive decline

2. Steel industry decline

3. Manufacturing decline

4. Both Steel and Manufacturing decline

5. Little Havana

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Sure, but laying all at the feet of the auto industry just doesn't work. It probably started with "White Flight" decades ago.

-k

And what is it that initiated "white flight"? Why did Detroit experience this phenomenon while other cities grew more prosperous?

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In Canada, one wonders if devout NDP and Liberal supporters are taking note of Detroit's destruction?!

Of course! They're revving up their efforts, emboldened by the success of the Detroit program.

What is it anybody thinks they're trying to create? They want DETROIT, all across the Western world. A world where the misery is spread equally, and the masses are easily controlled with nothing more than free food and leaky roofs.

Detroit is a Leftist success story, not a failure. They took a city of vibrant capitalism and destroyed it in thirty years, and they all got rich doing it. Win!

Edited by socialist
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And what is it that initiated "white flight"? Why did Detroit experience this phenomenon while other cities grew more prosperous?

What does Kim Kardashian and Beyonce think about all this, and where are they getting their curvy bras these days. That is America these days, no one steeped in Americas current media cares or even knows about the forward thinking titans of industry like Ford and Dodge bros., this is hip hop and shuck and jive America where its so cool to vote for failure and not even know it. The president is a "DUD" America, to think you led the world and now with your obsession with all things Hollywood and Unions and Oprah you have sunk to these depths, sad

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Exactly Bill, look none other then the list of poor cities posted above:

That could read:

1. Automotive decline

2. Steel industry decline

3. Manufacturing decline

4. Both Steel and Manufacturing decline

5. Little Havana

As long as the Union bosses for generations have used Detroit for the Money stings what do they care. They are banking the rest of America will pay for the pillaging of a City they fleeced. Besides Obama said Detroit could not fail.

So other will pay the price of the Collectivists greed. Progressivism is the rot of nihilism, the cancer of souls so callused that only results decay of not only the beings it effects. It demolishes the physical landscape as well. People say sin does not exist but in the minds of men. I think Detroit proves them wrong.

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Exactly Bill, look none other then the list of poor cities posted above:

That could read:

1. Automotive decline

2. Steel industry decline

3. Manufacturing decline

4. Both Steel and Manufacturing decline

5. Little Havana

Derek, ever read Atlas Shrugged? I won't get into any arguments about Rand philosophy but when I look around today I see more and more parallels with the society she described, where crooked politicians made deals with crooked businessmen and things kept getting more and more shabby. Eventually everything just broke down and stopped working, for lack of any intelligent attention.

Is that the way we are going? Will we fulfil that old socialist maxim - "Everyone will at last be equal - equally miserable!".

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Guest Derek L

Derek, ever read Atlas Shrugged? I won't get into any arguments about Rand philosophy but when I look around today I see more and more parallels with the society she described, where crooked politicians made deals with crooked businessmen and things kept getting more and more shabby. Eventually everything just broke down and stopped working, for lack of any intelligent attention.

Is that the way we are going? Will we fulfil that old socialist maxim - "Everyone will at last be equal - equally miserable!".

I have years ago, and though in some circumstances there are similar parallels, I think mostly the changes can be attributed to “economic evolution”……In that the rest of World, and rightly so, want what we in the West have and with that desire, competition is created.
Take for example the (recently maligned) garment industry. Does your average person in the West really care if their socks that they buy at Costco are made in the third world or North America? I say no, what they care about is the cost. Sure when there is a media report of cross eyed children working 20 hour days or dozens of seamstresses being burnt alive in a fire, we in the West agree that that is terrible and conditions should improve, then we go back and buy the same cheap merchandise.
Is there a happy medium, in which socks could be produced cheaply in North America in factories with safe conditions, paying the workers a “liveable wage”? Maybe, but I can’t see how a company would make any money at it, as such, where is the incentive for a company to get into the business?
Are you going to force North American industry to produce cheap socks, regardless if doing so is a loss leader? Are you going to force North Americans to purchase price inflated North American socks? Where the Shrugging comes into play is that many do think one or both of the above choices is a viable alternative……
And that leads back to Detroit and the decline of the automotive industry……..People want cheap, quality cars that are fuel efficient……Both Japan and Germany recognised this decades ago, and that was the start of the decline of the North American automotive industry and Detroit……..
The same analogy can be applied to steel and manufacturing etc and the cities that where born of these industries……As the industries left, the cities that didn’t recognise the evolutionary process have declined, where as some former rust belt cities, for example Pittsburgh, recognized the coming decline near 40 years ago, and though the city declined likewise in terms of population, they were able to recognises the future (high tech & medical research etc) decades ago, well making required investments in education and infrastructure renewal and have since softened the inevitable blow caused by deindustrialization
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As long as the Union bosses for generations have used Detroit for the Money stings what do they care. They are banking the rest of America will pay for the pillaging of a City they fleeced. Besides Obama said Detroit could not fail.

So other will pay the price of the Collectivists greed. Progressivism is the rot of nihilism, the cancer of souls so callused that only results decay of not only the beings it effects. It demolishes the physical landscape as well. People say sin does not exist but in the minds of men. I think Detroit proves them wrong.

Hey buddy, I think you posted under the wrong pseudonym. You're supposed to be a far left socialist would-be teacher under this one, remember? Rah-rah unions?

Edited by Scotty
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Bailing out GM and Chrysler is essentially bailing out Detroit, on top of the money they received from the stimulus. Yes, Wall Street was nailed out, and have repaid all monies with interest.

That's not even close to being in the neighborhood of anything approaching reality.

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Hey buddy, I think you posted under the wrong pseudonym. You're supposed to be a far left socialist would-be teacher under this one, remember? Rah-rah unions?

He's simply being a smart-ass. Take it for what it's worth.

Just another example of the charm of the left wing...

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He's simply being a smart-ass. Take it for what it's worth.

Just another example of the charm of the left wing...

Yes, because a forum troll is a typical example of a "left winger". :rolleyes:

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Yes, because a forum troll is a typical example of a "left winger". :rolleyes:

No, trolls come in all sorts. I am referring to the tendency of a large percentage of leftwingers to make personal attacks and just generally be rude and snarky.

"Rubble" is a perfect example!

I have no cites to back up my opinion, just the experience of a 60 year old man. While I have many leftwing friends I still maintain that whenever you run into a snarky debater it most often is a lefty.

I'm not sure why but I think it has something to do with how some lefties seem to feel that only the left has a heart and that anyone else must be BAD!

Some of the anti-Harper threads are perfect examples. To hear some tell it, Harper is on a mission to screw all lower income Canadians simply for the sheer joy of it!

There's also an underlying current of "drama queen". If you can label someone as a rightwinger you can then castigate him vigorously, thus somehow proving that since you are against such you personally must be a hero!

Again, this is just my opinion. Perhaps if you feel I'm wrong you would like to call me some names. :lol:

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Everybody,

Stop the personal attacks.

If you encounter a fellow member violating the forum rules, you are instructed to report it and IGNORE IT. DO NOT RESPOND IN KIND.

If you respond in kind with personal attacks, your posting privileges and you will be sent to Ignore It BootCamp where you are taught how to ignore forum posts. Capice??

Ch. A.

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And what is it that initiated "white flight"? Why did Detroit experience this phenomenon while other cities grew more prosperous?

Lots of cities experienced "white flight". It was from what I have read quite a wide-spread phenomenon during the 1960s and 1970s. I recall hearing (on a radio show detailing the history of the famous CBGB bar) in that areas of New York City transformed from popular areas to slums in the space of just a few years.

One reason Detroit may have been hit particularly hard is that it's surrounded on all sides. It's southern edges are of course bounded by water and the border. All the other sides are bounded by other municipalities. When people left for the suburbs, they were leaving Detroit, period. (in contrast with places like Edmonton, for example, where you can move to the suburbs and still be within the city limits and be paying city taxes. Ottawa had this problem a while back; people lived in suburbs to pay lower taxes while commuting to work in the city and using city infrastructure. Ottawa annexed all of its suburbs a few years back, I believe.)

Here's a breakdown of Detroit and surrounding suburbs by demographics (from the 2000 census)... red dots represent white people, blue dots represent African-Americans. See if you can guess where the municipal boundaries of Detroit are from looking at the red and blue dots:

Racial_Divide_Detroit_MI.png

(bonus points if you can spot the municipalities of Hamtramck and Highland Park, wholly encircled by Detroit.)

Pretty graphic, huh?

-k

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Lots of cities experienced "white flight". It was from what I have read quite a wide-spread phenomenon during the 1960s and 1970s. I recall hearing (on a radio show detailing the history of the famous CBGB bar) in that areas of New York City transformed from popular areas to slums in the space of just a few years.

One reason Detroit may have been hit particularly hard is that it's surrounded on all sides. It's southern edges are of course bounded by water and the border. All the other sides are bounded by other municipalities. When people left for the suburbs, they were leaving Detroit, period. (in contrast with places like Edmonton, for example, where you can move to the suburbs and still be within the city limits and be paying city taxes. Ottawa had this problem a while back; people lived in suburbs to pay lower taxes while commuting to work in the city and using city infrastructure. Ottawa annexed all of its suburbs a few years back, I believe.)

Ok so Detroit died due to geographic layout and a failure to swallow up its suburbs? I'm not so sure these are the causes or accelerants of white flight. White flight was caused by programs that subjected middle class white people to unnecessary hardships for the sake of "desegregation", such as forcing kids to be bussed to bad schools half way across the city. Detroit was one of the cities where such social experimentation was tried the hardest, essentially chasing out whites who did not want to sacrifice their children's safety and future for the sake of some social engineer's megalomaniacal power trip. Once the middle class whites were gone, the city was left with a less educated population that was unable to adapt to a changing economy as the auto industry reached its zenith and then began its long decline. While other cities diversified and became part of the knowledge economy, Detroit withered and died, a monument to the colossal stupidity of social engineering.

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Ok so Detroit died due to geographic layout and a failure to swallow up its suburbs?

I think those are reasons why Detroit was hit harder by the flight of the middle class to the suburbs than many other cities that experienced the same thing.

I'm not so sure these are the causes or accelerants of white flight.

I didn't say they were causes. You asked why Detroit experienced this while other cities prospered. Those are actually two different questions. Detroit wasn't the only city that faced it; many others did too. Why did other cities prosper and Detroit didn't? I think geography is a factor.

White flight was caused by programs that subjected middle class white people to unnecessary hardships for the sake of "desegregation", such as forcing kids to be bussed to bad schools half way across the city. Detroit was one of the cities where such social experimentation was tried the hardest, essentially chasing out whites who did not want to sacrifice their children's safety and future for the sake of some social engineer's megalomaniacal power trip. Once the middle class whites were gone, the city was left with a less educated population that was unable to adapt to a changing economy as the auto industry reached its zenith and then began its long decline. While other cities diversified and became part of the knowledge economy, Detroit withered and died, a monument to the colossal stupidity of social engineering.

There were many causes of "white flight"; some rational, some irrational, some a result of misguided social engineering, some a result of natural evolution of society. The arrival of automobile culture and freeways was a big factor in freeing the middle class to live farther from work (in a sense, Detroit was crushed to death under the wheels of irony.) Also, I have read that Detroit was one of the major destinations for black people fleeing the Deep South. I think you're laying it on a little thick by putting it all at the feet of "social engineering".

When the middle class left city limits, Detroit faced plunging property values, plunging tax base, rising urban poverty, unemployment, rising crime, which became a vicious circle. It's not so much a matter of the remaining residents of Detroit failing to adapt to the "knowledge economy", it's more an issue of anybody who can afford to leave, leaves. If some Detroit resident does get a decent job, they're going to move to one of the nearby municipalities too. There's lots of prosperous municipalities in the Detroit metropolitan area.

-k

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Detroit now wants to build a new 400 million dollar stadium for the Red Wings.

Seems like a good idea when a city is strapped for cash.

Couldnt be worse optics , bad timing the whole shebang.

The Econ Dev'mt Board who approved explained that they want to rejuvente the city and get stuff being built.

All the while, pensions are being trashed, city lights dont run in many spots, the Police do nothing but FIDO , and more.

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