Get with the program Detroit!

[GostHacked]

Couldnt be worse optics , bad timing the whole shebang.

The Econ Dev'mt Board who approved explained that they want to rejuvente the city and get stuff being built.

All the while, pensions are being trashed, city lights dont run in many spots, the Police do nothing but FIDO , and more.

How do you rejuvenate a city that is broke? How many can afford to go to a hockey game these days anyways?

[guyser]

How do you rejuvenate a city that is broke?

Somehow they had to stop the bleeding. But at some point they have to try, cant blow it up and forget about it

How many can afford to go to a hockey game these days anyways?

About 20,066 people, on average a night.

[Bryan]

About 20,066 people, on average a night.

Third highest attendance in the league, in a city with a smaller metro population than Winnipeg, and such high unemployment/illiteracy/poverty/etc….

…who IS going to these games? People from Windsor and Sarnia?

[guyser]

Third highest attendance in the league, in a city with a smaller metro population than Winnipeg, and such high unemployment/illiteracy/poverty/etc….

…who IS going to these games? People from Windsor and Sarnia?

There is lots of money outide the boundary of Detroit. Lots of semi-well off auto retirees too.

I used to be a regular in Bloomfield Hills (girlfriend lived there).....no one , not a soul didnt have lots of cash. Neighbours were Bob Seeger, Lee Iaccoca and Aretha Franklin.

[Guest American Woman]

Detroit now wants to build a new 400 million dollar stadium for the Red Wings.

Seems like a good idea when a city is strapped for cash.

"The 18,000-seat arena is designed to be a catalyst for more development and to link downtown and midtown, turning a blighted area into a business, residential and entertainment district."

Board OKs new Red Wings arena

Sometimes it takes money to make money.

[Guest American Woman]

Third highest attendance in the league, in a city with a smaller metro population than Winnipeg, and such high unemployment/illiteracy/poverty/etc….

…who IS going to these games? People from Windsor and Sarnia?

FYI, there are plenty of Americans with money - including Red Wings fans. Edited July 26, 2013 by American Woman

[Bryan]

FYI, there are plenty of Americans with money - including Red Wings fans.

My question was where they were coming from, considering this area is so depressed. Guyser2 says it's independently wealthy people in suburbs surrounding a decaying core. Are there really enough of those kinds of people that are into hockey?

[Guest American Woman]

My question was where they were coming from, considering this area is so depressed. Guyser2 says it's independently wealthy people in suburbs surrounding a decaying core. Are there really enough of those kinds of people that are into hockey?

They don't just come from the suburbs of Detroit (although there are some very wealthy, elite suburbs, and everyone in Detroit doesn't fit your stereotype) - there are plenty of cities/towns in Michigan and the surrounding area with Red Wings fans with money. Detroit does not = Michigan. Most Michiganders and most of Michigan are not Detroit; while the population of Detroit is 706,585, the population of Michigan is 9.8 million. Our stadiums aren't dependent on people from Sarnia and Windsor. Furthermore, Michigan doesn't hold a monopoly on Red Wings fans.

[Bryan]

They don't just come from the suburbs of Detroit (although there are some very wealthy, elite suburbs, and everyone in Detroit doesn't fit your stereotype) - there are plenty of cities/towns in Michigan and the surrounding area with Red Wings fans with money. Detroit does not = Michigan. Most Michiganders and most of Michigan are not Detroit; while the population of Detroit is 706,585, the population of Michigan is 9.8 million. Our stadiums aren't dependent on people from Sarnia and Windsor. Furthermore, Michigan doesn't hold a monopoly on Red Wings fans.

Still doesn't answer the question, even remotely. I picked Windsor and Sarnia because they're close, have strong(er) economies, and are hockey markets. If it's not the communities surrounding Detroit on the US side, who is it? Are people driving several hours each way 40+ times a year?

[Guest American Woman]

Still doesn't answer the question, even remotely. I picked Windsor and Sarnia because they're close, have strong(er) economies, and are hockey markets. If it's not the communities surrounding Detroit on the US side, who is it? Are people driving several hours each way 40+ times a year?

For starters, cities and populations within 100 miles of Detroit:

Cleveland, OH - 431,639 (94 Miles)

Toledo, OH - 316,851 (56 Miles)

Windsor, ON - 216,473 (7 Miles)

Warren, MI - 133,872 (8 Miles)

Sterling Heights, MI - 127,176 (13 Miles)

Lansing, MI - 113,810 (79 Miles)

Ann Arbor, MI - 112,852 (33 Miles)

Flint, MI - 111,475 (53 Miles)

Chatham-Kent, ON - 108,589 (46 Miles)

Livonia, MI - 89,282 (14 Miles)

Sarnia, ON - 71,419 (54 Miles)

25 miles or less:

NOVI, MI is 25 miles away

AUBURN HILLS, MI is 25 miles away

ANN ARBOR, MI is 24 miles away

PONTIAC, MI is 24 miles away

BELLEVILLE, MI is 24 miles away

ROCHESTER HILLS, MI is 23 miles away

WATERFORD, MI is 23 miles away

ROYAL OAK, MI is 22 miles away

NORTHVILLE, MI is 21 miles away

FARMINGTON HILLS, MI is 21 miles away

UTICA, MI is 20 miles away

LIVONIA, MI is 20 miles away

BLOOMFIELD HILLS, MI is 20 miles away

PLYMOUTH, MI is 20 miles away

SOUTHFIELD, MI is 17 miles away

TROY, MI is 16 miles away

ROMULUS, MI is 16 miles away

TAYLOR, MI is 14 miles away

MADISON HEIGHTS, MI is 14 miles away

SOUTHGATE, MI is 12 miles away

CANTON, MI is 11 miles away

FLAT ROCK, MI is 10 miles away

DEARBORN, MI is 9 miles away

ALLEN PARK, MI is 9 miles away

Michigan and Ohio are hockey markets. Why would you assume that there were no U.S. cities with people who could afford to go to hockey games within the driving distance? And again. Hockey fans don't just come from the immediate area. People take trips to go to games - baseball, football, hockey, etc.

[guyser]

Still doesn't answer the question, even remotely. I picked Windsor and Sarnia because they're close, have strong(er) economies, and are hockey markets. If it's not the communities surrounding Detroit on the US side, who is it? Are people driving several hours each way 40+ times a year?

They only need 20,000 people to fill up the Joe, and there are plenty of Wings fans everywhere. Of course lots go from Windsor, but I doubt too many like before (Windsor isnt doing well)

Couple the large population around them, and into Penn , toss in the relatively low prices* for tickets and you have a sold out show.

* low vs Leafs and many others, somehwere under $50 avg cost, vs $120 for Leafs.

[GostHacked]

"The 18,000-seat arena is designed to be a catalyst for more development and to link downtown and midtown, turning a blighted area into a business, residential and entertainment district."

Board OKs new Red Wings arena

Sometimes it takes money to make money.

Yeah, but what if you don't have the money to begin with? Declare bankruptcy and then buy a half a billion dollar stadium? Would it not be wiser to invest a smaller amount into the stadium they already have?

[Guest American Woman]

Yeah, but what if you don't have the money to begin with? Declare bankruptcy and then buy a half a billion dollar stadium? Would it not be wiser to invest a smaller amount into the stadium they already have?

From what I understand, the location of the new stadium will be a plus:

Mark Rosentraub, a University of Michigan professor and an expert on the economic impact of sports teams, did a study for the arena developers, and estimates that it would create more than $1 billion of direct spending in Detroit during the next 30 years. He said many stadium and arena projects have minimal impact on local economies because they're already thriving or because of poor location.

But he argues that this one -- in a depressed city next to football and baseball stadiums -- will encourage a lot of private investment in restaurants, bars and other entertainment venues.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/26/news/economy/detroit-bankruptcy-arena/index.html

[kimmy]

Third highest attendance in the league, in a city with a smaller metro population than Winnipeg, and such high unemployment/illiteracy/poverty/etc….

…who IS going to these games? People from Windsor and Sarnia?

There are only 700,000 people living within Detroit city limits, but there are about 4,000,000 living in the Detroit urban area. Comparing Detroit to Winnipeg is ridiculous. (if one used the same criteria, Vancouver is also smaller than Winnipeg, because only 600,000 of the Vancouver area's 2.5 million people live within Vancouver city limits.)

There are many affluent municipalities all around the Detroit area. The region has many well-off people... but very few of them live within Detroit's city limits.

Here is a map that charts the Detroit region by income. Blue represents flat broke, pink and red represent wealthy; grey is average. Detroit's city limits are shown in dots. Almost everybody with even average income is outside the city limits. All that grey around Detroit isn't unpopulated area; that area is all populated, it's all suburbs like Dearborn and Warren.

(bonus points: compare the blue areas on this map with the previous map I posted, depicting racial demographics of the Detroit region.)

-k

[kimmy]

From what I understand, the location of the new stadium will be a plus:

Mark Rosentraub, a University of Michigan professor and an expert on the economic impact of sports teams, did a study for the arena developers, and estimates that it would create more than $1 billion of direct spending in Detroit during the next 30 years. He said many stadium and arena projects have minimal impact on local economies because they're already thriving or because of poor location.

But he argues that this one -- in a depressed city next to football and baseball stadiums -- will encourage a lot of private investment in restaurants, bars and other entertainment venues.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/26/news/economy/detroit-bankruptcy-arena/index.html

Sports stadiums are often touted as a way of generating economic activity.

However, that view has come into question recently. The methodology of these studies is a little suspect. They tend to make claims along the lines of "20000 people will be down-town on game night for 41 home games each season. On average, each of those people will spend X amount of dollars in the area, generating economic impact of $X * 20000 * 41." However, that tends to be simplistic and optimistic.

Firstly, because it assumes that the people spending the money would just leave it at home under a mattress if the stadium didn't exist. But those people would most likely spend that money on other things. It would me more accurate to say that a sports arena diverts economic activity than generates it. It takes disposable income that might be spent in the suburbs, and gets it spent around the arena instead. That's not a bad thing if you're trying to revitalize your downtown, but it shouldn't be looked at as free money in the overall metro economy. For the most part that's money that came out of some other business's pockets.

Secondly, because it assumes that people will actually spend that money. In lots of cities, it's probably true. In Ottawa or Edmonton (to name 2 examples I'm familiar with) it's not true. In Ottawa, the arena is in the middle of nowhere. In Edmonton, the arena is in the middle of the hobo part of town. In either of those places, there's no economic activity being generated around the arena, because after the game, people jump in their cars, get on the freeway, and drive home. Which brings us to Detroit. Is Detroit's new arena going to be in a place where people are going to hang around and spend money after the game? Or is it a place where people are going to jump in their cars and drive home after the game? Most of Detroit, in its current state, isn't going to be a place where people are going hang out after the game. People will need a reason to stay.

These studies showing how awesome a new sports arena will be for the local economy are usually sponsored by the sports team owners and arena developers. They should be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism to say the least.

-k

[Bryan]

There are only 700,000 people living within Detroit city limits, but there are about 4,000,000 living in the Detroit urban area. Comparing Detroit to Winnipeg is ridiculous. (if one used the same criteria, Vancouver is also smaller than Winnipeg, because only 600,000 of the Vancouver area's 2.5 million people live within Vancouver city limits.)

There are many affluent municipalities all around the Detroit area. The region has many well-off people... but very few of them live within Detroit's city limits.

Here is a map that charts the Detroit region by income. Blue represents flat broke, pink and red represent wealthy; grey is average. Detroit's city limits are shown in dots. Almost everybody with even average income is outside the city limits. All that grey around Detroit isn't unpopulated area; that area is all populated, it's all suburbs like Dearborn and Warren.

(bonus points: compare the blue areas on this map with the previous map I posted, depicting racial demographics of the Detroit region.)

-k

That does make more sense. It's confusing when you think of a major metropolitan area with a low population. Having multiple communities sandwiched together as one continuous city, yet each maintaining their own civic govts is not something I'd automatically assume. I'm more used to the model of when an outside community overlaps the boundary of the bigger city, it joins that city.

[Pliny]

Here's a breakdown of Detroit and surrounding suburbs by demographics (from the 2000 census)... red dots represent white people, blue dots represent African-Americans. See if you can guess where the municipal boundaries of Detroit are from looking at the red and blue dots:

(bonus points if you can spot the municipalities of Hamtramck and Highland Park, wholly encircled by Detroit.)

Pretty graphic, huh?

-k

This lesson on how Blacks took over Detroit is a good one on how Blacks can entirely take over America.

[Guest American Woman]

Sports stadiums are often touted as a way of generating economic activity.

However, that view has come into question recently. The methodology of these studies is a little suspect. They tend to make claims along the lines of "20000 people will be down-town on game night for 41 home games each season. On average, each of those people will spend X amount of dollars in the area, generating economic impact of $X * 20000 * 41." However, that tends to be simplistic and optimistic.

Firstly, because it assumes that the people spending the money would just leave it at home under a mattress if the stadium didn't exist. But those people would most likely spend that money on other things.

Those "other things" likely would be elsewhere. That's the point.

[Guest American Woman]

This lesson on how Blacks took over Detroit is a good one on how Blacks can entirely take over America.

Not sure what you're saying. Could you elaborate?

[kimmy]

Those "other things" likely would be elsewhere. That's the point.

Understood, and in Detroit's case that makes sense. They need to get people from Grosse Pointe to spend some of their disposable money downtown. I mentioned it because sports owners often present the case in misleading ways. "The (Coyotes, Thrashers, Oilers, etc) generate $50 million of economic activity for this city! Does this council really want to cost the economy of this city $50 million?" But the $50 million will still get spent, it's just a question of where and how. Trying to divert that spending into a depressed area makes sense... if it actually works. Are people really going to want to stick around Detroit to have a beer after the game?

Not sure what you're saying. Could you elaborate?

I am also curious. Perhaps Pliny feels that "the Blacks" have been drawn to Detroit as if by, say, ... a magnet.

-k

[Bonam]

I am also curious. Perhaps Pliny feels that "the Blacks" have been drawn to Detroit as if by, say, ... a magnet.

-k

[Guest American Woman]

Understood, and in Detroit's case that makes sense. They need to get people from Grosse Pointe to spend some of their disposable money downtown. I mentioned it because sports owners often present the case in misleading ways. "The (Coyotes, Thrashers, Oilers, etc) generate $50 million of economic activity for this city! Does this council really want to cost the economy of this city $50 million?" But the $50 million will still get spent, it's just a question of where and how. Trying to divert that spending into a depressed area makes sense... if it actually works. Are people really going to want to stick around Detroit to have a beer after the game?

I realize that about sports owners, which is why the quote I used referred to a "depressed area;" ie: this discussion is about Detroit, not other places. It's not just Grosse Pointe et al, though, which is why I pointed out that Red Wings fans aren't limited to a 100 mile radius of Detroit. I've certainly hung around for a drink after attending games in various cities, and I've gone out to eat or for a drink prior to a game, too. It seems, too, as if your question about "sticking around Detroit..." has a very negative connotation. The idea is to make the area attractive so people want to stick around for a drink. Also, as a side point, a lot of games I've attended, regardless of the city, involved staying in a hotel and eating out and having a drink... so there's that crowd, those $$, to consider also.

Edited July 27, 2013 by American Woman

[kimmy]

I mentioned the arenas in Ottawa and Edmonton earlier. They both illustrate that plunking down an arena doesn't just generate a food and entertainment district. In Ottawa, when I lived there at least, the only thing outside the arena was an off ramp; in Edmonton the area around the arena has been a run-down part of town for decades, and the presence of an arena has not generated any sort of entertainment district. People get in their cars and leave as quickly as possible after the game. I had quite a few game-night evenings out when I lived in Edmonton; often involving eating out and drinks; none of that food and entertainment money was spent anywhere near the arena.

My question about "hanging around Detroit" has a negative connotation, because the idea of "hanging around Detroit" itself has a very negative connotation. It's no secret that the city has an incredibly negative reputation, and I don't think game-night revelers will want to spend time or money in the area before or after the game.

On its own, I don't think an arena will change that. Trying to create an environment where people will want to spend time before and after the game will be a very ambitious project that will take more than just building an arena and hoping that positive environment just magically appears.

-k

[cybercoma]

drawn to Detroit as if by, say, ... a magnet.

-k

HOW DO THEY WORK!?

[Guest American Woman]

My question about "hanging around Detroit" has a negative connotation, because the idea of "hanging around Detroit" itself has a very negative connotation. It's no secret that the city has an incredibly negative reputation, and I don't think game-night revelers will want to spend time or money in the area before or after the game.

This is the trouble with people hearing nothing but negative. It was the same when my daughter's and I went to Toronto during the height of the SARS scare. People get all of their impressions from the media, and it's all too often a one-sided affair. Toronto was needlessly a ghost town, devoid of tourists. We even had one person here suggest that the stadium would need 'people with money' from Windsor and Sarnia to fill the stadium. That just shows a complete lack of knowledge, and all too often people's opinions are based on "lack of knowledge" and/or nothing but the media.

It's hard to think of the Motor City a popular symbol of urban decay as a vacation destination. But somewhere behind its neglected, graffiti-covered skyscrapers are charming reminders of a city that was once among the world's wealthiest. Today, rows of homes and stores that had been abandoned for decades are finally being demolished, making way for lush green spaces that give some sections of the city an odd rural vibe. Several new hotels, restaurants and art galleries have the potential to burnish Detroit's image further and revitalize the downtown area.

Read more: [url=http://www.time.com/time/travel/cityguide/article/0,31489,1994456_1994357_1994238,00.html#ixzz2aLiYY8pz[]http://www.time.com/time/travel/cityguide/article/0,31489,1994456_1994357_1994238,00.html#ixzz2aLiYY8pz[

On its own, I don't think an arena will change that. Trying to create an environment where people will want to spend time before and after the game will be a very ambitious project that will take more than just building an arena and hoping that positive environment just magically appears.

Obviously that's your opinion, but I doubt if you're as knowledgeable about it as those who are actually there dealing with the problem. Furthermore, the restaurants and bars etc. wouldn't "magically" appear. There are always people who are interested in investments, and in this instance, there may be incentives. I'm not saying it's guaranteed to work, but it's not the sure failure that some are making it out to be, either. Seems to me anything Detroit did would be a bit of a gamble. Edited July 28, 2013 by American Woman