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Even Israel thinks that Canada's Neocon Government is extreme.


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Exactly who are these 'Israeli officials' and in what 'document' in particular is Canada getting its knuckles rapped? That would be my question...

So you think that the Israeli Embassy spokesman in Ottawa who said that “Israel supports a stable and reliable Palestinian Authority with a dependable security system and an effective judiciary,” made this up to make Stephen Harper look more incompetent than he is?

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What does this have to do with my question?

This was my question: If Stephen Harper has respect for the government of Israel, why did he ignore Israel's wishes on the UN vote?

If the PLO/Authority recognizes Israel's right to exist, why isn't Israel included in that little map in their emblem? That's certainly a question.

So you think that the Israeli Embassy spokesman in Ottawa who said that “Israel supports a stable and reliable Palestinian Authority with a dependable security system and an effective judiciary,” made this up to make Stephen Harper look more incompetent than he is?

Which 'spokesman' said that again?

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None of the issues you have raised above has anything to do with the right to self-determination, nor should they prevent Palestine's right to self-determination in any way whatsoever. By that logic, based on how Canada treated gays and women in 1867, Canada was unjust in forming a federation that year.

In this 21st century, I have no more patience with "self-determination".

My Western Leftist instinct is to teach these heathens.

My Rightist instinct is to isolate them, and teach them a lesson that they won't forget.

How do you deal with ignorant idiots who make a first menstruation a public affair while keeping a male erection secret? IMHO, Islam is about sex, and sexual frustration.

----

We share a planet. Why should we all (several billion people) suffer while a few crazy fanatics (a billion or so) go through a process of "self-discovery". These Muslims (Shias/Sunnis) are involving the world in stupid nonsense that Lutheran/Catholic Christians did 500 years ago.

Adam Smith may have had the theory right, but maybe Karl Marx was right about human behaviour.

Edited by August1991
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If the PLO/Authority recognizes Israel's right to exist, why isn't Israel included in that little map in their emblem? That's certainly a question.

The emblem is from the Arafat days. Here's the current position of the Palestinian authority on Israel's right to exist:

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/We-recognize-Israel-they-should-recognize-Palestine

Feel free to raise tangential issues. I gather you will continue not to respond to my question, i.e., If Stephen Harper has respect for the government of Israel, why did he ignore Israel's wishes on the UN vote?

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The emblem is from the Arafat days. Here's the current position of the Palestinian authority on Israel's right to exist:

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/We-recognize-Israel-they-should-recognize-Palestine

Feel free to raise tangential issues. I gather you will continue not to respond to my question, i.e., If Stephen Harper has respect for the government of Israel, why did he ignore Israel's wishes on the UN vote?

The emblem and its derivatives are still in use.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/01/02/no-interest-in-peace-with-israel-new-fatah-logo-sparks-outrage-over-palestinian-nationalism/

I'm not a Harper supporter...so you're barking-up the wrong tree. My interest in the region stems from family connections to the conflict. But, I'm all for cutting-off the Palestinian Authority for their unilateral moves to end-run Israel. What Israel has to say on the subject is of little importance to me. If they wish to fork over more money to the Pallys, I'm not stopping them.

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Guest American Woman

One could ask the same questions about Saudi Arabia. Has the Canadian government criticized Saudi Arabia?

How much aid does Canada give to Saudi Arabia?

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I just read the link you provided. In it, Abbas states: “I believe that the West Bank and Gaza are Palestine and the other part is Israel." Sounds reasonable to me.

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I just read the link you provided. In it, Abbas states: “I believe that the West Bank and Gaza are Palestine and the other part is Israel." Sounds reasonable to me.

And the map in their logo clearly shows a lack of Israel. Sound reasonable to you?

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Guest American Woman

We give no aid to Iran but that doesn't stop the Harper government from criticizing Iran. Saudi Arabia is just as sexist and homophobic if not more so.

I'm not sure what your point is since Canada doesn't give aid to Iran or Saudi Arabia.

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In this 21st century, I have no more patience with "self-determination".

My Western Leftist instinct is to teach these heathens.

My Rightist instinct is to isolate them, and teach them a lesson that they won't forget.

Just like the British Empire, the French Empire etc. taught the African "heathens"? Just like the Spanish, Portuguese, British, and French taught the North and South American aboriginal "heathens"? Just like the Canadians government tried to "civilize" aboriginals in residential schools?

You sound like you have a bad case of "white man's burden". You want to be an imperialist?

We share a planet. Why should we all (several billion people) suffer while a few crazy fanatics (a billion or so) go through a process of "self-discovery". These Muslims (Shias/Sunnis) are involving the world in stupid nonsense that Lutheran/Catholic Christians did 500 years ago.

IMO we have a right to say and protest anything we want when it comes to the what occurs within another nations' borders, but we don't have the right to physically intervene or otherwise force our beliefs on anyone except under the most exceptional circumstances (ie: genocide). That's been the entire basis of the international political system of sovereign nation-states since the Treaty of Westphalia, 1648. Most often when this sovereignty and self-determination has been violated it has led to tragedy.

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I'm not sure what your point is since Canada doesn't give aid to Iran or Saudi Arabia.

My point is that the government of Israel objected to Canada's hostile stance at the UN against the Palestinian Authority. You raised the issue of aid. Are you saying that if Canada did not provide aid to the Palestinian Authority, their stance would have differed?

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I just read the link you provided. In it, Abbas states: “I believe that the West Bank and Gaza are Palestine and the other part is Israel." Sounds reasonable to me.

Actualky hamas took gaza when israel gave it back ,the palistine has no say in the gaza.

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I'm not sure what your point is since Canada doesn't give aid to Iran or Saudi Arabia.

What does aid have to do with Canada' s support at all? Canada's support for Israel has more to with the alliance structure of the middle east. Israel being a staunch ally of the US and Canadian foreign policy usually follows in step of US policy.

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Palestinians can have their "independence". But by the same logic, they must also respect the right of Israel to exist.

But Huxley, there's more involved: How do Palestinians treat gays? How do they treat women? Are there gay bars in Gaza? Among Palestinians, what happens to a woman after divorce?

You couldn't have expressed my reservations better than I could have.

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Unbelievable. How dare the Canadian Government threaten people who want their independence. Wilson's 14 Points and Roosevelt's Atlantic Charter both stated that people have the right to self-determination. The Canada government wants Canada in the mentality of a Middle Ages Feudal Crusader State.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/national/Israel+urged+Canada+Palestinians+over+recognition/8636996/story.html

Your headline is absolutely misleading. At no time did Israel state the Harper government was too extreme. Those are your words.

It has a vested interest in seeing aid continue to the West Bank. It has nothing to do with thinking Harper or anyone else is too extreme and for you to classify it as such is your subjective spin.

Canada and only Canada can and will decide who it provides aid to. Whether it makes a decision you find extreme is one thing but don't speak for Israel it never described ending funds to the West Bank as extreme.

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My point is that the government of Israel objected to Canada's hostile stance at the UN against the Palestinian Authority. You raised the issue of aid. Are you saying that if Canada did not provide aid to the Palestinian Authority, their stance would have differed?

Your point is a misrepresentation, It did not object to the position of Canada as being hostile or extreme-neither. Those are your subjective interpretations. Israel never used such descriptions. You are falsely ascribing political opinions to Israel.

Israel's position on politely requesting Canada reconsider not cutting off aid to the West Bank is based on humanitarian considerations-something you have not mentioned. Instead you try twist it as Israel criticizing Canada for being too harsh on the West Bank. It has never stated such a thing. Its concerns are based on pragmatic humanitarian concerns that cutting aid may increase poverty.

I doubt you will ever state Israel does not want to see poverty on the West Bank or that it appreciated and appreciates Canada's support of it AND Palestinians. I doubt you will attempt to classify Israel's actual comments in the context they were made and that is, it understands that Canada alone decides how it distributes its aid and Israel appreciates its role no matter what its decision but thinks the aid is helpful.

Israel has not ever classified this Canadian government as extreme, unfair or any other misrepresentation you care to make on its behalf. Stop speaking for it. Speak for yourself because that is all your opinions are. Stop trying to create a false dispute between Israel and Canada over Palestine using aid to the West Bank as a pretext to try define Canada as extremist.

Canada will not be extremist either way it decides. Canada is a sovereign nation. It makes its own decisions. Tell me are you so concerned about Palestinians or is this just an opportunity to use the aid issue to try wedge a false dispute between Canada and Israel because that is what you do and its weak at best.

I would welcome a statement from the Israeli government that stated Canada was extreme. Go on find one and get back to me. You won't.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Israel has not ever classified this Canadian government as extreme, unfair or any other misrepresentation you care to make on its behalf. Stop speaking for it. Speak for yourself because that is all your opinions are. Stop trying to create a false dispute between Israel and Canada over Palestine using aid to the West Bank as a pretext to try define Canada as extremist.

Canada will not be extremist either way it decides. Canada is a sovereign nation. It makes its own decisions. Tell me are you so concerned about Palestinians or is this just an opportunity to use the aid issue to try wedge a false dispute between Canada and Israel because that is what you do and its weak at best.

I would welcome a statement from the Israeli government that stated Canada was extreme. Go on find one and get back to me. You won't.

I never claimed that Israel accused Canada of being extreme. Israel made no such claim. However, Israel did object to Canada's UN stance against the Palestinian Authority. This stance was not helpful to Israel. Do you think it was?

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I never claimed that Israel accused Canada of being extreme. Israel made no such claim. However, Israel did object to Canada's UN stance against the Palestinian Authority. This stance was not helpful to Israel. Do you think it was?

Thank you for that clarification. Appreciated it. In my personal opinion, no.

In my personal opinion poverty or lack of work on the West Bank incites resentment against Israel and Israelis and that resentment can quickly turn to acts of terror. So in my opinion any aid that can create work and jobs that make people self sufficient is helpful in preventing conditions that might otherwise fuel terrorists and their extremist views.

If that aid on the other hand is stolen by corput officials or misdirected to terrorists than its problematic.

Yasir Arafat stole hundreds of millions of foreign aid money. The Palestinian Authority that now exists on the West Bank is riddled with coruption. Then again Israel has internal coruption issues too. I am not pointing the finger at anyone-I am just saying the Middle East in no matter what country you are in has coruption which is always an obstacle to peace and financial aid.

I am also saying this, Mr. Abbas is on record as stating he will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state. He stated he will only recognize it as a state, if it allows anyone identifying themselves as a Palestinian (whether they are or not descended from Palestinians) to be able to return to Israel and be given land. In fact he is stating for him to recognize Israel it must be disbanded as a Jewish state and displacing the existing Israelis if they are Jews. He has no suggestions where these Jews should go and he refuses to comment on these issues:

1-those persons who call themselves Palestinians who are not in fact Palestinian but the descendants of non Palestinian Muslims who displaced Palestinians and who fight over land titles not just in Israel but Jordan and the West Bank as well;

2-why he will not recognize the right of Christian churches to the land titles they have to land in Jerusalem and the West Bank, something Israel recognizes but Mr. Abbas has stated he never will;

3-what will happen with Fatah Hawks and the other 300 splintered cells of terrorists on the West Bank who do not suppport him, want him dead and believe Jordan, Israel and the West Bank as well as Gaza should be turned into a Sunni Muslim caliphate;

4-what happens to Israeli Muslims who refuse to give up their land to so called "Palestinians" who return to Israel;

5-what happens to the ultra-orthodox Jews who do not recognize the state of Israel and currently live on the West Bank and have lived there continously since Biblical days-Mr. Abbas is on record as saying no jew of any kind will be given citizenship in Palestine and would have to move back to Israel.

Mr. Abbas is no moderate. This is someone who wrote his doctoral thesis in an Egyptian university on why the holocaust never happened.

This is a man who has been caught numerous times saying one thing to the Western press and the exact opposite to the Eastern and Arab medias.

This is a man who is also suspected of having ties to the same drug caravan lords that once reported to Yasir Arafat and grow hash hish in Jordan, the West Bank and Lebanon and ship it along with Heroin from Afghanistan, Iran, and Iraq through to Marseilles, France and then to New York.

After Arafat died, and La Deuxieme Bureau's major ally of the Middle East Arafat was no more, Russian drug lords moved in.

Russia's interest in Syria is as much about protecting these drug caravans as it is France's interest to get into Syria and re-establish contact with Sunni Muslims to recreate an alliance.

Ironically it was the French who gave false importance and power to the Alawites to wrestle control away from Sunni Muslims in Syria and it got them nowhere. The Alawites and the Assad clan turned on France in favour of the Soviets and then the old KGB that reincarnated through Putin in today's Russia.

Many people say its all about the oil. I say hash hish oil not just petroleum.

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Thank you for that clarification. Appreciated it. In my personal opinion, no.

In my personal opinion poverty or lack of work on the West Bank incites resentment against Israel and Israelis and that resentment can quickly turn to acts of terror. So in my opinion any aid that can create work and jobs that make people self sufficient is helpful in preventing conditions that might otherwise fuel terrorists and their extremist views.

If that aid on the other hand is stolen by corput officials or misdirected to terrorists than its problematic.

Yasir Arafat stole hundreds of millions of foreign aid money. The Palestinian Authority that now exists on the West Bank is riddled with coruption. Then again Israel has internal coruption issues too. I am not pointing the finger at anyone-I am just saying the Middle East in no matter what country you are in has coruption which is always an obstacle to peace and financial aid.

I am also saying this, Mr. Abbas is on record as stating he will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state. He stated he will only recognize it as a state, if it allows anyone identifying themselves as a Palestinian (whether they are or not descended from Palestinians) to be able to return to Israel and be given land. In fact he is stating for him to recognize Israel it must be disbanded as a Jewish state and displacing the existing Israelis if they are Jews. He has no suggestions where these Jews should go and he refuses to comment on these issues:

1-those persons who call themselves Palestinians who are not in fact Palestinian but the descendants of non Palestinian Muslims who displaced Palestinians and who fight over land titles not just in Israel but Jordan and the West Bank as well;

2-why he will not recognize the right of Christian churches to the land titles they have to land in Jerusalem and the West Bank, something Israel recognizes but Mr. Abbas has stated he never will;

3-what will happen with Fatah Hawks and the other 300 splintered cells of terrorists on the West Bank who do not suppport him, want him dead and believe Jordan, Israel and the West Bank as well as Gaza should be turned into a Sunni Muslim caliphate;

4-what happens to Israeli Muslims who refuse to give up their land to so called "Palestinians" who return to Israel;

5-what happens to the ultra-orthodox Jews who do not recognize the state of Israel and currently live on the West Bank and have lived there continously since Biblical days-Mr. Abbas is on record as saying no jew of any kind will be given citizenship in Palestine and would have to move back to Israel.

Mr. Abbas is no moderate. This is someone who wrote his doctoral thesis in an Egyptian university on why the holocaust never happened.

This is a man who has been caught numerous times saying one thing to the Western press and the exact opposite to the Eastern and Arab medias.

This is a man who is also suspected of having ties to the same drug caravan lords that once reported to Yasir Arafat and grow hash hish in Jordan, the West Bank and Lebanon and ship it along with Heroin from Afghanistan, Iran, and Iraq through to Marseilles, France and then to New York.

After Arafat died, and La Deuxieme Bureau's major ally of the Middle East Arafat was no more, Russian drug lords moved in.

Russia's interest in Syria is as much about protecting these drug caravans as it is France's interest to get into Syria and re-establish contact with Sunni Muslims to recreate an alliance.

Ironically it was the French who gave false importance and power to the Alawites to wrestle control away from Sunni Muslims in Syria and it got them nowhere. The Alawites and the Assad clan turned on France in favour of the Soviets and then the old KGB that reincarnated through Putin in today's Russia.

Many people say its all about the oil. I say hash hish oil not just petroleum.

Fascinating and informative, especially your comment about Dr. Abbas writing a doctoral thesis on why the Holocaust never occurred. By any chance, do you have a citation for that?

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Fascinating and informative, especially your comment about Dr. Abbas writing a doctoral thesis on why the Holocaust never occurred. By any chance, do you have a citation for that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Other_Side:_The_Secret_Relationship_Between_Nazism_and_Zionism

Quite the joke seeing the Grand Mufti al-Husseini was one of the top Nazis of WW2...deeply involved in the Holocaust.

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I've avoided this thread, which appears to have grown quite long, because calling Canada's government "extreme" is completely absurd. As terrible as I think the Harper Conservatives are, they certainly are not "extreme" by any rational definition of the word.

Well stated. You bet I have a lot of criticism toward's Harper's government. They have turned into the very government of Jean Chretiens riddled with corruption, patronage and scandal after scandal. It was interesting Harper got himself elected as a Reformist.Does anyone even remember his pledge to do away with the senate, patronage, scandals, lack of accountability? He not only has failed to do what he said he would, but engaged in the very things he got elected to rid the country of and for that he

must be held accountable.

However on his foreign policy give me a break. He is no extremist. Why because he doesn't pretend Hamas is not a terrorist group? Why because he does not pretend Hezbollah is not a terrorist group or Iran's regime is just a bunch of happy fellas with beards?

His foreign policy at least is absent of the b.s. of the Chretien years.

I am sick and tired of Conservative corruption..but what is the alternative? Trudeau? Muldoon or whatever that guy's name is?

Its not a great choice is it, corruption, a ballerina or a millionaire socialist. Great.

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