This is Apartheid

[TheNewTeddy]

For clarification: are these "Jew only" roads for Jews alone, or, for Israeli citizens? Many citizens of Israel proper are Islamic or Christian even, others are self-declared Atheists.

[Hudson Jones]

Hebron is the largest Palestinian city, still partially occupied by Israel. It has around 500 Jewish settlers.

Arabs are not permitted to use the paved road shown in the video. The settlers and the IDF soldiers are. Here is a sample of what these settlers are like:

[Shady]

Hebron is the largest Palestinian city, still partially occupied by Israel. It has around 500 Jewish settlers.

Arabs are not permitted to use the paved road shown in the video. The settlers and the IDF soldiers are. Here is a sample of what these settlers are like:

But Arab citizens of Israel are allowed to use them. It's not a race or religion issue.

[GostHacked]

So what are the repercussions of Israeli illegal settlements now that Palestine is a recognized state?

[Hudson Jones]

But Arab citizens of Israel are allowed to use them. It's not a race or religion issue.

You are typing nonsense.

This road is another example of Israel's apartheid policy in the occupied territories as it's for Jewish settlers only. I'm not sure why you're trying to make excuses for it.

[TheNewTeddy]

You are typing nonsense.

This road is another example of Israel's apartheid policy in the occupied territories as it's for Jewish settlers only. I'm not sure why you're trying to make excuses for it.

Are arab citizens of Israel allowed to use the roads or not?

[Hudson Jones]

Are arab citizens of Israel allowed to use the roads or not?

A Palestinian Arab, who is an Israeli citizens, with an Israeli passport, cannot visit the West Bank. Link

A side note: A Palestinian citizen of Israel, cannot bring his or her spouse to Israel.

[Shady]

Are arab citizens of Israel allowed to use the roads or not?

Yes they are. Arab citizens have the same rights as Jewish citizens.

[Hudson Jones]

Yes they are. Arab citizens have the same rights as Jewish citizens.

Did you just miss the comment made above? You seem to miss a lot of information that is freely given on this site. Because you continue to spread misinformation even after facts are given right here on the forum.

Also, Arab citizens of Israel do not have the same rights as Jewish citizens. You best look this up. Here is a start.

[Hudson Jones]

Here is a graphic showing Israel's policy when it comes to water allocation in the occupied territory.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[DogOnPorch]

Sucks to lose a war you start. But there you go...the results.

[Rue]

Did you just miss the comment made above? You seem to miss a lot of information that is freely given on this site. Because you continue to spread misinformation even after facts are given right here on the forum.

Also, Arab citizens of Israel do not have the same rights as Jewish citizens. You best look this up. Here is a start.

You again try dictate that your information is the only accurate information. It is the m.o. you have tried to use on this forum since you came.

You present isolated articles and when someone questions them offer nothing but the above.

You in fact made a false statement. It is a fact an Israeli citizen can travel anywhere regardless of their religion. Find the law that says otherwise. Find the military order that states the IDF prohibits non Jewish Israelis from travelling to the West Bank because of their religion.

Either back it up or get off the forum. What you did was to throw out a statement, then instead of backing it up trying to deflect and change the subject which is a transparent avoidance exercise everyone now knows you engage in.

Now put up or shut up.

You are absolutely wrong.

What I can tell you that any Israeli citizen is restricted from certain places for the same reasons-its not their religion-its their military clearance status. Your comment is absurd. Muslim and Christian Israelis have and do serve in the Israeli Armed Forces including on the West Bank.

If anything both Israeli Jewish settlers and Palestinians on the West Bank face restrictions not because of their religion but because of

other complex issues. For you to suggest its based solely on their religious or ethnic status is a crock. Israeli citizens cause the IDF as much problems as Palestinians on the West Bank and restrictions have to keep in mind the constant state of turmoil between certain settlers and Palestinians and the terror cells operating on the West Bank who without mobility restrictions would cause havoc for their own citizens as much as they would Israel.

Now put up or shut up.

[Rue]

There are complex issues involved with Israeli Muslims who want to marry Palestinian Muslims. There are also complicated issues involved with Israeli Jews marrying non Israeli Jews. Hudson Jones has no idea why but is fusing the above issues with mobility issues of all Israeli citizens. "Hudson Jones" as usual cuts and pastes from selective political opinion sites and then proclaims we all must realize this is the only set of information.

"Huson Jones" is no source of truth. Even the name "Hudson Jones" is unreferenced if we get technical. Is this a composite name for in fact more than one person or one person. Do you know? Do I? This notion you are to blindly follow what someone presents because his name sounds non Jewish or Muslim is for me hilarious.

I now ask 'Hudson Jones". If your name was Muhammed would you use that on this forum? Why do I ask? Because you not I keep referring to yourself as the source of truth on the Middle East conflict. Are you telling me "Hudson JOnes" is an impartial source without a political agenda? Are you telling me you are not an information agency that has its writers flood forums with the scripts you do posing as "Hudson Jones" or "John Smith" or yegads "Rue".

Come on get real. Its time to stop injecting in each response your snappy responses that you are the sole source. If you want people to accept what you say as gospel you better start with the realistic notion that no one on any forum is anything but an unreliable source of subjective opinions. All of us.

Just some of us actually pose as authorities. Me? I am just hear to make sure to remind people to look behind the curtains. That Wizard of Oz was a joker until Toto pulled the curtains back.

Never mind that man behind the curtain! The great and powerful "Hudson Jones" and "Rue" have spoken.

Uh yah.

[Hudson Jones]

There are complex issues involved with Israeli Muslims who want to marry Palestinian Muslims.

I point out a discriminatory law in Israel and you comeback with, "it's complicated". Sorry buddy. It's complicated does not excuse the discriminatory law in Israel that prevents Palestinians citizens of Israel from bringing their spouses from the West Bank to their country.

Find the military order that states the IDF prohibits non Jewish Israelis from travelling to the West Bank because of their religion.

Either back it up or get off the forum.

Now put up or shut up.

You are absolutely wrong.

What I can tell you that any Israeli citizen is restricted from certain places for the same reasons-its not their religion-its their military clearance status. Your comment is absurd. Muslim and Christian Israelis have and do serve in the Israeli Armed Forces including on the West Bank.

Now put up or shut up.

You are an angry man. An angry man who tries really hard to make excuses for a racist state who has racist policies towards both those who it is occupying and its Muslim citizens.

Anyone who has knowledge of the the occupied territories knows about the hundreds of checkpoints in the occupied territories. They also know how Israel discriminates against both the West Bank residents and also Palestinians who are citizens of Israel, by restricting their movements in the occupied territories.

Here is an example of how the rules are different for Palestinian citizens of Israel when they want to travel to the West Bank:

Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, who are among the main customers for Qalqiliya’s traders, have since been allowed to enter the city only by foot;

It's quite nice of Israel for allowing these people to enter the city by foot.

I recommend you read the whole report to get a sense of the racist regime you try very hard to make excuses for.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[Michael Hardner]

You are an angry man. An angry man who tries really hard to make excuses for a racist state who has racist policies towards both those who it is occupying and its Muslim citizens.

Whether or not the poster is angry is beside the point. Assessments of the poster indicate a "play the man, not the ball" strategy which is inconsistent with the types of discussions we try for at MLW.

At worst, calling somebody angry may be interpreted as an insult.

[Hudson Jones]

Whether or not the poster is angry is beside the point. Assessments of the poster indicate a "play the man, not the ball" strategy which is inconsistent with the types of discussions we try for at MLW.

At worst, calling somebody angry may be interpreted as an insult.

Did you read what he wrote before coming in here complaining about me calling someone "an angry man"?

Explain to me how the following comment made by the person who I called an angry man received your blessing:

Now put up or shut up.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[PIK]

Looks like hudson went to Israeli aparteid week at his school. The real problem is how the palestine people have been used by it's arab neighbours while the rest of the world and the media ignores it.

[Rue]

First off if you read what I said 'Hudson Jones" I used the exact same standard of criticism on myself as I did you and that is to say-why would anyone accept anything either of us have to say blindly? That has been your m.o. and I repeat it again, your m.o. is to dictate what is the acceptable evidence and how all must draw from only the evidence you provide what the only answer can be.

Interestingly only now do you provide a UN report and herein lies my next comment. You are attempting to suggest not only is it accurate, but that all one does is read it, and then presto they know what is actually going on-on the ground.

That said, oh do show me "Hudson Jones" where in the report it states or alleges or provides evidence Palestinians are being harassed because of their religion, or simply because they are Palestinians and no other reason.

In fact all you have done is state what we all know, that on the ground on the West Bank there are numerous check points restricting movement of both Israeli settlers and Palestinians. If it was apartheid as you state, Israeli Muslims within Israel or Israeli Christians within Israel would be segregated and treated differently, i.e., discriminatorily but they are not.

What you in fact do is recycle a deliberately misleading notion that the seperation of Israelis and Palestinians on the West Bank is in Israel.

The West Bank has not been made a part of the sovereign state of Israel and probably will never be for if it was, then the Palestinians most of whom are Muslim or Christian would soon be the majority in Israel and dismantle its Jewish status.

What you are doing is not an accidental misrepresentation but one everyone now knows and that is to suggest the presence of the IDF on the West Bank enforces two sets of laws. It does not. It is a fact the same military restrictions apply to Israelis. They too wait at checkpoints and are randomly stopped and violent Israeli settlers are arrested. I know that I was on the ground. I saw it. I witnessed Israeli settlers being arrested, rounded up, treated no differently then angry Palestinians.

Do the military security structures on the ground cause inconvenience. Yes. They can cause a one hour car trip to become 4, 6 maybe even 8 hours for some Palestinians. Does the military restrict Palestinian movement, of course. If it did not terrorists operating on he West Bank would move freely as they once did.

That you don't ever mention. In your script you make no reference to the terrorist acts that led to these military measures. Never.

Now tell me, show me in the report you provided where the UN stated these measures came into place in response to terrorism. Of course its not there its not their mandate to ask why just report what they see here and now. That in itself is selective.

There's no mention of the barriers that went down just the ones that went up. There's no mention of the operations of Fatah Hawks and other terror cells on the West Bank now is there? Do you want to tell us about them 'Hudson Jones"? Does your script contain anything about that?

Tell me, is there any mention of how UN vehicles including ambulances were used by terror cells to transport terrorists and their weapons? Hmmm?

Does the UN explain how impartial Chinese observers on the Lebanese and Syrian borders, were filmed building roads and bridges along side the Hezbollah for transportation of and placement of Chinese missile launchers?

Hmmmm? Why do you think Jordan pulled out of the West Bank and turned their back on it? Do you think the security measures are not also done with full approval of their nation? You think only Israel has concerns about the West Bank? Really?

[Rue]

Might I suggest there are some other sources that have other observations about the situation "Hudson Jones" tries to melt down to one subjective opinion analysis of his own, for example:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4337209,00.html

Here is an example when Israel does lift restrictions something 'Hudson Jones" will not acknowledge:

http://www.btselem.org/freedom_of_movement/20121217_restrictions_lifted

Here is my point as precise and possible. There is zero doubt IDF restrictions on the West Bank interfere with the movement of Palestinians, their quality of life, their feelings of despair, inadequacy, lack of control. There is no doubt it fuels a wide spread perception of persecution with Palestinians.

No one is white washing security check points. No one is saying settlements are not considered an obstacle to peace by Palestinians or even Israelis.

The point is however, the IDF does not as "Hudson Jones" suggests, operate in a vacuum simply persecuting Palestinians for no reason other than as he has made repeated inferences to that Israelis are Nazis and racists.

Here is why:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/shin-bet-arrests-two-west-bank-terror-cells-planning-to-abduct-israelis-1.432214

On any given day at any moment, a terrorist exists on the West Bank. Their existence is not going away. It won't go away simply because Israel leaves. When Israel left Gaza the very day they left Hamas and other terror cells immediately began attacking Israel.

When Israel withdrew from Lebanon, the very next day Hezbollah did exactly what they said they would not do, begin attacking Israel from the very land Israel vacated and also to this date refuses to disarm. It stated it would disarm when Israel left Lebanon. It never did. It lied.

In this area of the world, Israel does not live in a vacuum. It lives under constant existential threat of attack by terrorists. Its easy for human rights organizations to say, ah yes that's true but they go too far protecting themselves. Really?

What is too far. Have "Hudson Jones" explain. His script will tell you what is wrong with Israel but do you ever hear it acknowledge Israel has a legitimate right to take measures to protect its citizens? Never.

How about any of you. I offer any of you this challenge. Are you a security expert? Do you know what measures on the ground will protect Israel from terrorism. Will you tell me they simply leave the West Bank and that is it any disagreement goes poof?

Will "Hudson Jones" and their/his scripts acknowledge terror cells in Gaza and the West Bank have made it clear they will not stop until all of Jordan and Israel is turned into a Muslim caliphate and why not?

Why does he not admit this? Why will he never admit this or even acknowledge terrorism in these areas?

This is as recent as I can get with the terrorist activities and do you think the scripts from 'Hudson Jones" will address them?

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/03/israeli-claims-of-west-bank-terror-cells-fly-from-jerusalem-to-d-c-and-back-again.html

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-security-forces-foil-multiple-terrorist-attacks-in-jerusalem-arrest-dozens-of-hamas-militants-1.383098

http://www.examiner.com/article/hamas-seeks-control-west-bank-to-launch-anti-israeli-attacks

I am not here to deny Palestinians live in a difficult situation that they feel humiliates them.

I am not here to say Israel is perfect or does not engage in measures on the ground that restrict their movement.

I am here to say "Hudson Jones" has once again not provided any evidence of "apartheid". What he has done is provide a one sided subjective

opinion as to why he does not feel Israel should engage in any restrictions of anyone for any reason otherwise he calls that apartheid.

This is precisely why I said put up or shut up. When one pushes him, they do not get actual evidence, just a report that is then interpreted by him-the report does not contain what he states, but he asks you to infer from it as he does.

So then what stops me from engaging in the same tactic and saying you must only believe me and what I say?

Therein lies the difference between us.

I see two parties in a conflict. I do not see either operating in a vacuum. I see two parties caught in a never ending cycle of war that is no longer direct and fought through conventional armies but through fragmented terror cells who obey no laws.

In the world of 'Hudson Jones" and the scripts he recycles, he sees one criminal operating in a vacuum.

I see a fallible nation called Israel trying to operate within civilized laws as much as it can but faced fighting an enemy that follows no laws and has no qualms using UN vehicles and its own citizens as weapons.

My knowledge comes first hand with my own eyes and smelling the body parts that are not distinguishable from Palestinian or Israeli. In my world a flying kidney or stomach contents is not just one or the other-it mixes and the colour and smell is the same-terrorist violence does not distinguish between either side-it kills them both-the IDF "Hudon Jones" tries to all paint as an evil apartheid force does distinguish.

It makes mistakes. It will continue to make them. It will learn from them-but just who is it "Hudson Jones" really talks about...Palestinians? If he is so concerned for them why does he not discuss the terrorists who operate in their name and how they treat them? How is it he will not mention them and how their operations directly impact on all Palestinians?

Will "Hudson Jones" come on this forum and concede if there was no terrorism the IDf would be a moot point as a presence? Will he? Hah.

[Canuckistani]

Thing is, that as long as Israel has the settlements, it does not look like it wants peace. You don't annex someone's land all the while claiming you want to make peace. Or as we see, you do, but nobody believes you.

If Israel closed the settlements and continue to be attacked, they could have all the checkpoints and restrictions in the West Bank they want, and I would support them. But settlements contribute nothing to Israeli security, in fact quite the opposite. It does seem that Israel wants to move toward an appartheid state, taking the best of the West Bank for Jews, and pushing the Arabs into Arabistans. If that continues, it will be Israel's downfall at some point. Look at the recent doc interviewing the past 6 chiefs of Mossad. All are doves, all want a two state solution with closing of most settlements. Because they deem it the only possible road to peace.

[Hudson Jones]

First off if you read what I said 'Hudson Jones" I used the exact same standard of criticism on myself as I did you and that is to say-why would anyone accept anything either of us have to say blindly? That has been your m.o. and I repeat it again, your m.o. is to dictate what is the acceptable evidence and how all must draw from only the evidence you provide what the only answer can be.

Interestingly only now do you provide a UN report and herein lies my next comment. You are attempting to suggest not only is it accurate, but that all one does is read it, and then presto they know what is actually going on-on the ground.

That said, oh do show me "Hudson Jones" where in the report it states or alleges or provides evidence Palestinians are being harassed because of their religion, or simply because they are Palestinians and no other reason.

In fact all you have done is state what we all know, that on the ground on the West Bank there are numerous check points restricting movement of both Israeli settlers and Palestinians. If it was apartheid as you state, Israeli Muslims within Israel or Israeli Christians within Israel would be segregated and treated differently, i.e., discriminatorily but they are not.

What you in fact do is recycle a deliberately misleading notion that the seperation of Israelis and Palestinians on the West Bank is in Israel.

The West Bank has not been made a part of the sovereign state of Israel and probably will never be for if it was, then the Palestinians most of whom are Muslim or Christian would soon be the majority in Israel and dismantle its Jewish status.

What you are doing is not an accidental misrepresentation but one everyone now knows and that is to suggest the presence of the IDF on the West Bank enforces two sets of laws. It does not. It is a fact the same military restrictions apply to Israelis. They too wait at checkpoints and are randomly stopped and violent Israeli settlers are arrested. I know that I was on the ground. I saw it. I witnessed Israeli settlers being arrested, rounded up, treated no differently then angry Palestinians.

Do the military security structures on the ground cause inconvenience. Yes. They can cause a one hour car trip to become 4, 6 maybe even 8 hours for some Palestinians. Does the military restrict Palestinian movement, of course. If it did not terrorists operating on he West Bank would move freely as they once did.

That you don't ever mention. In your script you make no reference to the terrorist acts that led to these military measures. Never.

Now tell me, show me in the report you provided where the UN stated these measures came into place in response to terrorism. Of course its not there its not their mandate to ask why just report what they see here and now. That in itself is selective.

There's no mention of the barriers that went down just the ones that went up. There's no mention of the operations of Fatah Hawks and other terror cells on the West Bank now is there? Do you want to tell us about them 'Hudson Jones"? Does your script contain anything about that?

Tell me, is there any mention of how UN vehicles including ambulances were used by terror cells to transport terrorists and their weapons? Hmmm?

Does the UN explain how impartial Chinese observers on the Lebanese and Syrian borders, were filmed building roads and bridges along side the Hezbollah for transportation of and placement of Chinese missile launchers?

Hmmmm? Why do you think Jordan pulled out of the West Bank and turned their back on it? Do you think the security measures are not also done with full approval of their nation? You think only Israel has concerns about the West Bank? Really?

Man. You type a lot of opinion without backing up any of your claims.

You requested something to back up my claim that Palestinians both in the occupied territories and in Israel are discriminated against and I gave you specific examples. You've had a chance to counter the points given but have failed.

You need to stop with the excuses. You need to accept and acknowledge that Palestinians are discriminated against by Israel. Not because I say so, but because there is ample evidence which shows that it happens.

Let's forget about the discriminatory immigration laws towards the Palestinians in Israel for a moment and focus on the Palestinian territories.

The Jewish settlers in the West Bank are given preferential treatment as demonstrated in the video in the first post. They get to drive on Jewish only roads, while Palestinians are trapped in enclaves and have either no access or difficult access to other parts in the West Bank because there are hundreds of checkpoints throughout the West Bank, restricting their movements. They live in an open air prison.

Do the illegal Jewish settlers living in the West Bank have to go through the same thing as Palestinians do? No. Is this discrimination? Yes.

If you want to find something to challenge, why don't you challenge this report on checkpoints and the lack of freedom of movement:

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/UpdateMay2008.pdf

Deal with this reality.

Time for another video of Israel's discrimination towards Palestinians. This is Apartheid:

Edited March 25, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[Rue]

In response to your comments in quotation marks Canuck;

"Thing is, that as long as Israel has the settlements, it does not look like it wants peace."

Right and I can say, thing is, as long as Palestinians do not renounce terrorism and continue to refuse to recognize the

right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, it doesn't look like they want peace.

So the point? Do you simply focus on Israel's motives in a vacuum? You stereotype all Israelis as not wanting peace because of

settlements. Should I stereotype all Palestinians as not wanting peace either? Here we have Hamas with a continuing charter to wipe Israel

and Jordan off the map in one swoop, and you talk about appearances of peace?

My point again is, judging Israel's actions in a vacuum and stereotyping all its peoples' opinions is pointless. That is why these debates are

reduced to name calling and the daily script from 'Hudson Jones" which features criticizing Israel for whatever the recycled accusation of the day is.

How about you? Do you want to tell me Palestinians appear to want peace?

In regards to your other comments which are a subjective opinion and made clear to be a subjective opinion I acknowledge them.

As you already know from past posts, I am symnpathetic to the report by the Mossad heads you reported and the platform of Tzipi Levni on how to deal with the West Bank which views settlements as obstacles for peace.

I do point out this. As much as I and probably a majority of Israelis although I would never speak for them or presume to, have indicated in surveys they would be willing to give up settlements for a true peace, i.e., dismantling of terror cells completely,

Israel will not and can not leave the West Bank until terrorism is renounced by Hamas and all the terror cells renounce as their

raison d'etre the extinction of Israel and Jordan.

We can talk all we want about settlements being a barrier for peace, but please let's not play this Hamas propoganda game where that is the only reason there is an obstacle to peace. Its ridiculous. Its as ridiculous as the responses I get from Hudson Jones trying to dictate to me over and over again as he just as yet again, what information I must restrict myself to.

Can you see his pattern of trying to control the information he wants people to consider and judge Israel and ALL Israelis by terms he dictates? Can you see the level of this debate? He provides sound bites, quotes out of context, isolated bits and pieces of tapes he preapproves andt hat is how we determine the conflict?

At least you concede security as an issue. He can not. Which is why you and I in fact are not in disagreement over this issue and never have been. I take you on with other generalizations but not the West Bank. You have always acknowledged Israel has a security issue that also prevents withdrawal.

I would hope as I bet most of us do, that one day Israel and Palestinians can live side by side in 2 states, but for that to happen terrorism has to be renounced and of course no you can't have a Palestinian state consisting of say less than 20% of the West Bank in pockets of settlements. No that is not going to work not from a practical perspective.

My point though is the script played out by "hudson Jones" and others is to only point out one side of the issue and to deliberately inflamme it to create only one abuser and one victim precisely because its a game-its a media game to prevent people from seeing

Palestinians and Israelis as equals and to keep fueling the Israeli (read into that all Jews and anyone else who supports Israel as well) as the devil. Its an ancient tale with the script updated.

The only reason this tale continues is because its so old-its so ancient and its been able to mutate so many times by altering the name used for Jew.

At the root of this conflict are not just people who now since 1967 call themselves Palestinians, but Jews who express their collective through the word, Israeli.

You really believe 'Hudson Jones" will acknowledge Jews are a collective people with a right to a country? He claims to do so with Palestinians, but not Jews. He will continue to try dictate the message and control it to see only what he wants to see with me and others in debates but you think he will ever acknowledge terrorism let alone terrorism on the West Bank?

Never. I further argue if one reads his scripts, their totality indicates he uses or exploits Palestinians as he does Felashies and anyone else he can if he thinks it will score anti Israel points.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Rue

[Rue]

"Hudson Jones" your tactic is not working.

You show once again in your response to me you ignore the counter-points I made and try deflect away from your inability to respond to them.

Attempting to ignore my counter-points by yet again trying to control what can be considered and discussed in a conversation with you will not work with me.

I hope people can clearly see you are not interested in debating and are only interested in presenting your view and ignoring what anyone else has to say to you and more importantly you will not acknowledge any opinion other than your own.

No "Hudson Jones" the attempt to control the script won't happen in Canada. That unilateral control of what can be thought or discussed comes from a culture and religion that people in a democratic world will not play to.

You are not in the position to demand I memorize and repeat back your words. Its not how it works on this forum. You mistake it for another world- a world whether the script is given to you, and you repeat it back blindly.

In my world reality is not dictated by one script-certainly not "you".

You can't hide the message "Hudson Jones" and you can't control it either. That reality you are so fond of, it can't be defined by you for others and never will be. You can engage in all the wars and denials you want, but the days of fatwas are over. They are as obsolete as terrorism or the tactic of blaming Israel for everything in the Middle Eastt.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Rue

[Canuckistani]

@Rue. The thing is you are conflating settlements and military occupation of the West Bank. The former, I see only as an impediment to peace, and if the Settlers get their way will lead to the demographic destruction of Israel or a mass ethnic cleansing that would set that area aflame. It only endangers Israel, doesn't make it safer. The latter, as long as some Palestinians continue to attack Israel, (Just as only some Israelis support the settlements) is perfectly justified in my view.

I do hold Israel to a different standard by saying they should make the first move. Because they are in the one up position, and quite frankly because they are, and lay claim to being, the more civilized society. That comes with certain obligations of behavior.

[DogOnPorch]

@Rue. The thing is you are conflating settlements and military occupation of the West Bank. The former, I see only as an impediment to peace, and if the Settlers get their way will lead to the demographic destruction of Israel or a mass ethnic cleansing that would set that area aflame. It only endangers Israel, doesn't make it safer. The latter, as long as some Palestinians continue to attack Israel, (Just as only some Israelis support the settlements) is perfectly justified in my view.

I do hold Israel to a different standard by saying they should make the first move. Because they are in the one up position, and quite frankly because they are, and lay claim to being, the more civilized society. That comes with certain obligations of behavior.

...and if the Muslim Arabs 'get their way'...then what happens?