This is Apartheid

[Hudson Jones]

Another example of Israel's apartheid policy:

Since 1994, when settler Baruch Goldstein massacred Moslem worshipers in the Tomb of the Patriarchs, the Israeli military has employed a "policy of separation" in Hebron. This is implemented primarily through severe restrictions on Palestinian movement in downtown Hebron, where most Israeli settlement outposts are located. Lately the military has further entrenched this policy by building a fence dividing a central street in half and only allowing Jews to use the paved side of the street while Palestinians must use a rough, unpaved passage.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[Pliny]

He said, in a despicable and racist tone.

[Peanutbutter]

I don't think you have any idea what real apartheid is.

[Hudson Jones]

a·part·heid

n.

2. A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups.

Now you know. And knowing is half the battle.

[Rue]

Another day another inflammatory sound bite.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Rue

[Hudson Jones]

Inflammatory is the silence or the excuses some people try to use towards Israel's obvious violations of people's rights. Look at what is happening in this situation: You have a nice, wide, paved road built for Jews only, on Palestinian land. The Palestinians are forced to use a narrow, dirt path, along side the road they're not allowed to go on.

[Peanutbutter]

I don't understand how Israel is an apartheid state. Jews and Arabs live in peace side by side. Israel is a Jewish State. Israel is nice enough to allow non Jews to live there and should be congratulated. Arabs can vote, own businesses and have a higher value of life in Israel then they would in Palestine.

I don't understand.

[Hudson Jones]

I don't understand how Israel is an apartheid state.

Israel is practising apartheid in the occupied territories. Case in point; the above video.

[Peanutbutter]

Israel is practising apartheid in the occupied territories. Case in point; the above video.

Occupied territories? Which Israeli policies? Show me a cite where Israel is practicing Apartheid as part of government policy.

[Hudson Jones]

Occupied territories? Which Israeli policies? Show me a cite where Israel is practicing Apartheid as part of government policy.

Watch the video, Peanut. That's a start.

[Rue]

Inflammatory is the silence or the excuses some people try to use towards Israel's obvious violations of people's rights. Look at what is happening in this situation: You have a nice, wide, paved road built for Jews only, on Palestinian land. The Palestinians are forced to use a narrow, dirt path, along side the road they're not allowed to go on.

Inflammatory is the act of taking a brief film and trying to suggest it forms sufficient basis to explain the complex issues of Hebron. Inflammatory is a person who restricts his contributions on this forum to anti-israeli comments through the exercise of fragmented sound bites taken out of their context and isolated to create a new context. Inflammatory is someone who never once has spoken up for the violation of the rights of Palestinians or Arab peoples in Morrocco, Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Kurdish Iraq.

Inflammatory is a person who has never once spoken up about the plight of black Christians in Sudan, the Muslim extremism in Nigeria, the slave trade of black Africans from Senegal or slave labour from Paklistan or Sri Lanka or the Phillippinnes or Indonesia being violated in Arab states.

Inflammatory is your silence to the treatment of women, gays, Bahaiis, Bebers, Druze, Assyrians, or the autrocities committed by Sunnis and Shiites against each other and non Muslims. Inflammatory is your silence towards the human rights violations committed by Hezbollah, Hamas, PFLP against Christians, Muslims and anyone who does not agree with their political views. Inflammatory is your double standard of being blind to the entire Middle East except Israel.

Inflammatory is your use of child images or exploiting of Palestinians or Felashies to try present a justification for your Israel attacks,

You are a one trick pony. Your attempts to dictate what evidence is allowed on this forum and in fact restrict the evidence to only what you discuss as proof of your claims is laughable. When you do steer from your script you put your foot in your mouth.

Even your response to me is censored from what you actually want to say.

Go on I told you, speak to me in Arabic. I can read. Tell me what you really think.

By the way, if you want to discuss Hebron it requires more than you dictating a 10 second sound bite as the basis to make a sweeping apartheid statement. It requires intelligence. It requires an intelligent analysis of all the biews. Intelligence is defined by being able to acknowledge the many sides of a conflict.

Your intelligence is flawed. It is so inflexible and rigid as to defy even common sense. Now you have people believe a 10 second sound bite is the basis for understanding the complex issues on the ground in Hebron?

Laughable.

Go tell your handlers you need to do more than quote a script on this forum. In the Western world, yes some memorize what they are told and regurgitate it, but then there are a lot of people like moi-we devour people who memorize scripts but have no idea what the words they mimmic mean.

[Rue]

Here is; http://www.btselem.org/hebront

This is the actual site "Hudson Jones" is trying to exploit. It is a legitimate human rights group that criticizes Israeli policies in Hebron. Its there for you to read.

Here is how the above is used by the Palestinian Authority and Fatah..we go from the above to the next which is just a slight change but the political views simply become more obvious:

http://www.hebronrc.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&Itemid=72〈=en.

The above is actuall the position those against Israel in Hebron use in various versions.

[Rue]

^{Here is the other side of the debate the one agents like "Hudson Jones" can not acknowledge:}

http://www.ourjerusalem.com/history/story/hebron-the-1929-pogrom-and-the-dhimmi-syndrome-in-our-times1.html

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c95_1363042571

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=2284

Here is an American perspective on it:

http://english.cri.cn/6966/2013/03/10/2821s752849.htm

Here is pretty much the take most of us moderate Zionists agree on when it comes to this issue:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/rabbis-round-table/caught-between-the-jewish-and-arab-narratives-of-hebron-1.433459.

The point is there is a complex issue. Agents such as 'Hudson Jones" are only scripted to present the Palestinian Authority or Iranian view on the matter.

What they can not do is acknowledge there are 3 identities when it comes ot Hebron; Jewish, Muslim and Christian and then under Muslim occupation, Jewish sites were desocrated and destroyed and to this day, the majority of Palestinians and Muslims in this area do not see Jews and Christians as equals. In their world of dhmiitude, only Islam is the legitimate religion of this area.

The cold reality was and remains that under Islamic rule, no other religion is respected. Under Israeli rule, Palestinians now restate it as a political occupation because from a religious perspective they can't make an arguement that Jews do to Muslims what Muslims did to Jews during their occupation.

Yes it is absolutely true-the land is divided. Its divided but not just for Muslims, for Jews and Christians too. All three people have been unable to co-exist. The Christians had their wars, and so have the Jews, both with the Muslim peoples.

Today we don't talk of it as a religious battle but a political occupation but in fact the roots of Hebron's mess are a religious one not a political one-a competition of all three religions to stake claim to it as an historic site integral to their religions.

All three have legitimate rights. A just peace and solution would entail a complex trilateral council administering the area. Easier said then done.

However 'Hudson Jones" i s not hear to discuss the wide range of perspectives or even history of the religions causing the conflict-he is here to present a 10 second sound bite.

Therein lies the difference. I did not come here to ask you to hate Muslims or Christians because I support Israel's right to exist-so why is it each and every one of his messages ends with the usual one trick message? Yes indeed. Apartheidists. Nazis. Child killers. The usual inflammatory

presentations.

[scribblet]

Excellent posts Rue...

[Hudson Jones]

Inflammatory is the act of taking a brief film and trying to suggest it forms sufficient basis to explain the complex issues of Hebron.

What is your explanation of having a policy, closing off the paved road to the Palestinians and leaving the dirt path along side of it for them to use? Don't forget that this is happening on Occupied Territories. Give me one scenario where this act could be seen as something that shouldn't be criticized.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[Guest American Woman]

Therein lies the difference. I did not come here to ask you to hate Muslims or Christians because I support Israel's right to exist-so why is it each and every one of his messages ends with the usual one trick message? Yes indeed. Apartheidists. Nazis. Child killers. The usual inflammatory

presentations.

I think the one-sided inflammatory approach really turns a lot of people off. The more I see it, the more I hear it, the more I find myself speaking out for Israel, pointing out the criticism and standards that Israel is being singled out and held to. What you say is true - we are not starting thread after thread criticizing Palestine/Muslims; most here supporting Israel are on the defensive, as all of the countless threads about Israel are offensive in nature.

[Rue]

I think the one-sided inflammatory approach really turns a lot of people off. The more I see it, the more I hear it, the more I find myself speaking out for Israel, pointing out the criticism and standards that Israel is being singled out and held to. What you say is true - we are not starting thread after thread criticizing Palestine/Muslims; most here supporting Israel are on the defensive, as all of the countless threads about Israel are offensive in nature.

Thank you and I know I come across as a blow hard but I debate strong for the middle ground between the extremes. I hate it when anyone gets lazy on the issues including myself. May I be so naive as to say I do think Obama visiting has a significant meaning and his power to influence Israel and Palestinians to get back to the table is real.

Its interesting to watch the politics unfold. Israel being a country of perportional representation must always cobble together these shaky coalitions much like its parliamentary model Italy. You think in hindsight they would have stuck with the British system of parliament but no...

In any event he has had to hobble together a coalition shaky as it is, and look who is back as Foreign Minister, my girlfriend Tzipi Levni. Say what you want about Netanyahu but he is one cagey politician. You think its a coincidence he put her there. Hah. He knows the game. Levni is very popular with Joe Biden the very man Netanyahu insulted. Not a subtle message.

My big criticism with Netanyahu was his insulting of Biden one of Israel's strongest supporters. I still can not believe that. It was bad enough he insulted Sakrozy to his face but Biden too. Netanyahu is a little pitt bull. He pulls no punches. Obama is no shrinking violet. Biden however is a loud friendly guy to Israel and to insult him was just stupid and the Israeli press rightfully criticized him on that. Israel does not have so many friends it can afford to insult the few it has.

The West Bank is very tricky. The settlers are basicaly split in 3. One third is very militant and not going to want to leave or compromise and believe the land rightfully was there land stolen by Arabs. One third simply went there for jobs and tax cuts and have no political extremist views and are reluctant shmucks just trying to live. The other third are ultra orthodox Jews living in another world. They do not recognize the state of Israel and they are apolitical and live in a cacoon and many live in Hebron and have lived there for thousands of years and 'Hudson Jones" has no idea who they are and why the conflict between Palestinians and Israelis is not black and white precisely because of these Jews who have no problem remaining behind in a Palestinian state if it came about but Mr. Abbas has been careful not to recognize and Hamas and Fatah Hawks in the past have stated on the one hand they have no issues with non Zionist Jews then in the next breath used language calling on the extermination of ALL Jews.

Its a complex issue. There are Israeli federal and municipal level laws, Jordanian laws, international laws, all in conflict as to determination of individual and collective land rights. Then there is the matter of Canon or Vatican law as to the ownership of churches on theWest bank an in East Jerusalem that Israel recognizes but Abbas and Hamas have said they will not.

Sharia law will not recognize the legitimacy of either Jewish or Christian historic religious claims to the land in East Jerusalem under any circumstanc and Hamas and its allies have made that clear and Mr. Abbas is no moderate. This is a man who wrote his thesis denying the holocaust. There are in fact moderate Palestinians but they left the area and wish nothing to do with any of the current Palestinian Authority they consider corupt and terror cells such as Hamas whose fundamentalist version of Sharia law would create a caliphate and return Jews and Christians to dhimmitude if any survived a religious war.

The rhetoric is meaningless. Both sides posture for the cameras. Their public language means very little. The crucial or key signals to what is going on is in the body language. The body language is the key at all the photo ops. You can't hide that.

[Hudson Jones]

I agree with some of what you've stated above, even though I don't agree with your description of how the blame is 50/50. Again, why are you against criticizing Israel for the apartheid style law demonstrated in the video, in the original post? Israeli politics has been hijacked by the settlers and those who make money off of them. The land developers who make millions from government subsidized settlement buildings on Palestinian lands, which are ironically, built by mostly Palestinian labourers, are the ones who have their hands in politics and who drive Israeli politics. Abbas has no real power. He's just a puppet of Israel and U.S. On one hand, he's propped up by Israel to battle the other parties, and on the other, he is humiliated by actions such as withholding taxes that belong to the Palestinians. All because Abbas, in order to survive politically, went ahead in the UN to be recognized. Is being recognized so bad? Why should the Palestinians be punished for wanting self-determination? Something Israel already has.

Why is there always an instant knee-jerk reaction by many Jews and some people in North America, whenever there is criticism of Israel?

I try not to make this to be personal or respond to personal attacks but I should say that despite believing how and the circumstances in which Israel was formed were wrong, I am in support of the existence of the State of Israel. Of course, I am also for the right of Palestinians of wanting their own true and just state. Something Israel is against and has prevented from happening.

Back to the original video in this thread; Restricting Palestinians and making a road accessible to only Jews, on Palestinian land, while designating only a small dirt path along side of it is wrong and should be criticized. Especially by those who claim to be a moderate. So where is your criticism? Where is Canada's criticism?

Edited March 16, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[PIK]

Mean while Israeli citizens have been ducking bombs almost everyday for how many years, but that seldom gets mentioned.

[Rue]

^{I have never come on this board "Hudson Jones" and provided carte blanche knee jerk support of Israel.Its not what any Zionist or Jew does. If you stopped stereotyping us and spoke with some of us and stopped using Jewish stereotypes that we are all Zionist conspirators you would know supporters of Israel like me and Israeli citizens are and will always be critical of Israeli policies. It is why the press is open and free and full of criticism. Its why the knesset boils over with name calling. Its why the Supreme Court of Israel issues legal rulings in favour of Israeli Muslims on land rights. Its why there are so many Israeli human rights groups including those you remove quotes from.}

^{Its why the country is deeply divided and why many of us know if there is to be reform in Israel and the West bank there will be severe strain between Israelis as settlers may be asked to move.}

^{Give it a rest.}

^{You selectively pick out stories, remove them from their full context and try incite people to see only one narrow side of this conflict.}

^{For example if you took the time to follow that tape through in its full context you would see there is NO order for only Palestinians to walk on one side of the street without the sidewalk. They are ordered to cross the street as are Israelis if they come across one another because the IDF is sick and tired of being caught in the middle of the spitting and shouting.}

^{Why don't you get up out of the propoganda office and talk to someone in the IDF who has had to do duty on the West Bank. most do not want to be there caught between two peoples who equally hate them.}

^{You portray this as a black and white apartheid and I call you out on it as bullshit. Israelis are equally as segregated. They too live in enclaves. and are segregated and also live under seige. Neither side is free not that you would notice.}

^{I have also been critical on this forum as to Israeli environmental and water policies on the West bank and repeatedly stated settlements on the West Bank are an obstacle to a long term peace solution.My bias in favour of Tzipi Levni's policies are not hidden.}

^{However that is not the issue. The issue is being able to see both sides of the conflict.}

^{You don't. you flood this board with anti Israeli sound bites. Hear it again. No intelligent person can possibly fathom what goes on, on the ground in Hebron watching a 10 second film that did not and does not take into consideration wha happened before and after that 10 second tape and you know it.}

^{Asking people to assume what is critical based on a 10 second sound bite is absurd. Give it a rest.}

^{Your problem is you do not know who Israelis or Palestinians are. You don't. You base your reality on a script given to you.}

^{Until you go there and listen to both sides of the coin and understand the divides between both parties, you will never get it.}

^{Peace will come about despite propoganda agents like you trying to agitate and exploit Palestinians.Most of them know you might be a short term necessity for their propoganda but in the long term are more ignorant of them then any "Jew" like me.}

^{By the way, to be accurate I am Canadian.My being a "Jew' is immaterial to the issue. Do you refer to Canadian Muslims as " Arabs" when they discuss the Middle East? Try calling me Canadian.}

^{Or can you not fathom that the fact I am part of a collective Jewish identity does not mean I do not put my Canadian one first and foremost nor does it mean I think in one uniform cult with other Jews. Canada is my country.I was born here and that is where my loyalty remains or I have no business living in Canada. I support my ethnic people's rght to a collective identity but the fact that I do does not mean I think exactly the same as other Jews.In fact like most Jews we don;t agree on anything except we like bagels and lox. That is about it. We disagree about everything. So take your stereotype from your scripts and shove them. I don't own banks. I don't produce movies, I am not in control of Stephen Harper's mind. I have done stand up comedy but no I am not a dentist.}

^{There is an expression, two Jews,2,000 opinions. We are not and are never going to be exactly unanimous in our approach. Our culture is based on constantly questioning and debating. You are mixing us up with your own ethnic group. Stop projecting. You will find we don't chant in unison or obey our leaders blindly. We instead question and drive them nutz.}

^{The only thing we know is people like you will never take the time to understand us or acknowledge our existence, and that is all we need to know.}

^{My issue is not with Arabs or Palestinians. It is with people like you who agitate hatred against Israelis and Jews claiming you do it because you care about them. You don't. They are simply a pawn for you. If you really cared about their future you would encourage them to reach out to Israelis, not engage in the stereotypes of hatred you do.}

Edited March 17, 2013 by Rue

[Rue]

Everyone of your posts "Hudson Jones" is a personal attack on Jews and Israel so give the righteous tone a rest,

Edited March 17, 2013 by Rue

[Guest American Woman]

By the way, to be accurate I am Canadian.My being a "Jew' is immaterial to the issue. Do you refer to Canadian Muslims as " Arabs" when they discuss the Middle East? Try calling me Canadian.

This seems to be an issue - he's always asking me if I'm a Christian Zionist. I think that says a lot.

[Hudson Jones]

^{I have never come on this board "Hudson Jones" and provided carte blanche knee jerk support of Israel.Its not what any Zionist or Jew does.}

Precisely why I said many Jews and not "all" Jews. There is a small percentage of Jews who not only speak out against Israel's human rights abuses towards the Palestinians but they're also leaders in the movement.

You just demonstrated how my comment about how many Jews are unable to see criticism of Israel by going on another rant and not only falsely accusing my stance, but also try to smear me by calling me "an agent".

Its why the country is deeply divided and why many of us know if there is to be reform in Israel and the West bank there will be severe strain between Israelis as settlers may be asked to move.

Yet, the Israeli governments that are continuously elected are pro-settlement governments. With the housing and industry ministry and the defense minister in their hands, the settlers are more than ever driving the policy in the occupied territories.

^{Give it a rest.}

^{You selectively pick out stories, remove them from their full context and try incite people to see only one narrow side of this conflict.}

^{For example if you took the time to follow that tape through in its full context you would see there is NO order for only Palestinians to walk on one side of the street without the sidewalk. They are ordered to cross the street as are Israelis if they come across one another because the IDF is sick and tired of being caught in the middle of the spitting and shouting.}

What are you talking about? The paved road is a Jew only road, closed off to the Palestinians.

Why are you having such a hard time condemning an obvious segregating/apartheid/racist policy? You are proving my point again that many Jews have a tough time seeing Israel being criticized.

^{You portray this as a black and white apartheid and I call you out on it as bullshit. Israelis are equally as segregated. They too live in enclaves. and are segregated and also live under seige. Neither side is free not that you would notice.}

Really now? Israelis are living in enclaves and are segregated. How nice of you to draw a parallel to the struggles of the Palestinians to that of the Israelis.

Is there really a need to continue a discussion with someone who tries to portray the situation like you are?

^{I have also been critical on this forum as to Israeli environmental and water policies on the West bank and repeatedly stated settlements on the West Bank are an obstacle to a long term peace solution.My bias in favour of Tzipi Levni's policies are not hidden.}

I haven't seen this. If you get a chance, link me to your criticism.

Also, if Tzipi Levni is the face of moderation in Israel, then therein lies the problem.

Whenever you gather the courage, tell me how the policy of having Jewish only roads, on Palestinian land, should not be criticized.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Hudson Jones

[Shady]

This seems to be an issue - he's always asking me if I'm a Christian Zionist. I think that says a lot.

It definitely does say a lot. It reminds me a little of Archie Bunker.

[Shady]

Precisely why I said many Jews and not "all" Jews. There is a small percentage of Jews who not only speak out against Israel's human rights abuses towards the Palestinians but they're also leaders in the movement.

You just demonstrated how my comment about how many Jews are unable to see criticism of Israel by going on another rant and not only falsely accusing my stance, but also try to smear me by calling me "an agent".

Yet, the Israeli governments that are continuously elected are pro-settlement governments. With the housing and industry ministry and the defense minister in their hands, the settlers are more than ever driving the policy in the occupied territories.

What are you talking about? The paved road is a Jew only road, closed off to the Palestinians.

Why are you having such a hard time condemning an obvious segregating/apartheid/racist policy? You are proving my point again that many Jews have a tough time seeing Israel being criticized.

Really now? Israelis are living in enclaves and are segregated. How nice of you to draw a parallel to the struggles of the Palestinians to that of the Israelis.

Is there really a need to continue a discussion with someone who tries to portray the situation like you are?

I haven't seen this. If you get a chance, link me to your criticism.

Also, if Tzipi Levni is the face of moderation in Israel, then there lies the problem.

So tell me again how the policy of having Jewish only roads, on Palestinian land, should not be criticized.

Nobody's saying that policies can't be criticized. Yours is a false choice.