Low Information Voters (LIV)

[eyeball]

We're hockey fanatics, who have largely chosen a team.

So who's side are you on this year, the owners or the players?

I was actually looking forward to a year without the relentlessly insipid reportage about hockey and the NHL but I think I've come to the conclusion that there are actually worse things...like the endlessly insipid reportage of all the whining and angst about there being no NHL games. STFU already and get a life why don't they?

[Merlin]

I haven't watched a game since Bettman took over and I will not watch one until he is gone.

[Bryan]

But why bother?

Many of us live in ridings where our MP or MLA wins election by massive margins. It's hard to convince yourself that casting a ballet once every 4 years matters, especially when the election results are a foregone conclusion.

I live in what used to be one of those ridings. Basically it had gone to one party nearly every time since it has existed. A bunch of us decided to change it. We worked hard at each election, gathering more supporters each time, bringing in stronger candidates, and raising more money for campaigns. It took four elections, but we eventually 'took' what was one of the safest ridings in the country, and then increased our lead in the next election after that. Now the other party is already falling into that culture of defeat. I've actually heard their supporters say similar things to your post; that it doesn't matter what 'they' do anymore, 'we' are going to win anyway.

Voting is a bare minimum. Getting involved is what changes things.

[cybercoma]

Just to be clear, LIVs include most people that don’t vote and those people that vote based on some senseless criteria – these people may be engaged but they are just stupid.

I agree that one can be empathetic but civically disengaged but my guess is that there are relatively very few people like this.

I agree that a lack of trust in politicians and government is an issue but I again blame voter stupidity for this. We voters keep letting politicians get away with lies and we are positively re-enforcing their deceptiveness through our votes. I could also spin the trust issue in another direction, many Canadian voters put too much trust in politicians, i.e. they are gullible – this would help explain why political TV advertizing is so effective.

I guess I'm just not as cynical about people as you are or at least seem to be from the discussion. I don't think people are generally stupid. I think they're just focused on their own lives, making sure they have food on the table, or getting a promotion at their jobs. Since there's very little risk of our society falling into civil war or under the tyranny of a despot, politics is not of primary importance to people. It's only when the shit hits the fan that they take notice (pardon my language).

Edited January 5, 2013 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

I mean communities like ours, yes. I don't think it's likely to make it worse than better - our dialogue here is better in quality than dialogue I have elsewhere, IMO.

Government isn't about dialogue, negotiations, and amicable solutions anymore. Today's government, and this has been confirmed by pundits that observe closely from the press gallery, is about winning at all costs and not acceding a single thing to the opposing team. This isn't a good thing for Canadians politics and it isn't a good thing for voters themselves. It polarizes debate and creates an adversarial political environment, when that is absolutely unnecessary and in fact counter-productive to the purpose of government.

[carepov]

I guess I'm just not as cynical about people as you are or at least seem to be from the discussion. I don't think people are generally stupid. I think they're just focused on their own lives, making sure they have food on the table, or getting a promotion at their jobs. Since there's very little risk of our society falling into civil war or under the tyranny of a despot, politics is not of primary importance to people. It's only when the shit hits the fan that they take notice (pardon my language).

Yes, I am cynical about people, I really can't see how one can be otherwise after reading so many posts on MLW - and other discussion boards are worse!

The people "focused on their own lives" and don't hold onto stupid economic ideas, or ridiculous political beleifs, or self centered-sometimes racist ideas based on their limitted knowledge are fine in my book. Its those people with strong opinions based on ignorance that make me cynical and I see the mojority of Canadians this way.

How can one not be cynical:

-Look at the posts on MLW - and other discussion boards are worse (stupid economic ideas, ridiculous political beleifs, or self centered even racist ideas)

-A large percentage of Canadians support capital punishment and a "tough on crime" agenda

-Backwards policies and attitudes towards mental health

-GMOs and Nuclear Energy is "too risky"

-GST/HST referendum in BC

-In Manitoba, let's build a hydro line that is 50% longer to "save the environment"

-so many other backwards ideas and policies supported by large groups of people...

[Michael Hardner]

carepov - don't lose heart. Although it's difficult to manage a nation of diverse opinions, it's not impossible. Since we're in a period where the number of information sources has exploded to a galaxy of information/misinformation on the web, we all need to understand that the other side will only be convinced by objective measurements.

We knew this once - and we had to elect wise and knowledgeable leaders to negotiate our way forward on our behalf, not just people who could get elected. If we go back to the principles, we'll continue to move forward as we always have done.

[The_Squid]

I haven't watched a game since Bettman took over and I will not watch one until he is gone.

Huh.... Your long lost brother said the same thing.... Funny that!

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=21598entry837431

Oops?

Edited January 6, 2013 by The_Squid

[Pliny]

From the perspective of an individual, it makes no sense to research candidates, or vote. It is better to spend time researching a car lease.

This is a clear example of believing the individual is nothing and the collective is everything. However, the collective is comprised of individuals and it is individuals who have ideas not the collective. Individuals are the leaders and collectives are the followers. The core of individuals that make up the collective do not put a lot of effort into understanding politics and government. The details and complexities of matters of governance are best left to individuals that are more informed than they themselves are and they will collectively follow those who come across as being informed and at least presenting themselves as having good intentions. Well...we should understand what road is paved with good intentions.

The collective, while being comprised of individuals, in order to be more effective in swaying political direction has splintered into special interest groups that try and appeal to the majority to gain collective power. So it is the special interest groups that become more influential. On a national level these special interests tend to introvert the whole nation so it becomes focused on the "special interests", such as gay rights or women's rights or animal rights, or worker's rights, environmental rights, rights to health care and education, gun rights, criminal rights, Native rights, children's rights and I think it is true that political parties themselves become introverted and focused on these special interests. The majority of people don't really concern themselves with most of these "interests" but can empathize with them. The broadest interests are probably healthcare and education but even that under universality becomes splintered into the rights of the system as opposed to the rights of the consumer.

All in all, if government does not intrude too much into the lives of the citizens they will not be interested in government. They only wish it to intrude into the lives of other people who they consider may be a threat to the pursuit of their happiness. I don't have much of a problem with the LIV that doesn't exercise his right to vote but I do with the LIV that does vote especially if it is based upon a single issue special interest or, worse, the charismatic personality of a politician.

Edited January 6, 2013 by Pliny

[eyeball]

I AM JOHN GALT

FIFY

[August1991]

I live in what used to be one of those ridings. Basically it had gone to one party nearly every time since it has existed. A bunch of us decided to change it....

Voting is a bare minimum. Getting involved is what changes things.

Bryan, you describe a Hollywood movie script, except Hollywood pays its extras.

Why get involved? Like hockey, only fanatics pay attention to politics. Is modern democracy increasingly in the hands of fanatics?

I guess I'm just not as cynical about people as you are or at least seem to be from the discussion. I don't think people are generally stupid. I think they're just focused on their own lives, making sure they have food on the table, or getting a promotion at their jobs. Since there's very little risk of our society falling into civil war or under the tyranny of a despot, politics is not of primary importance to people. It's only when the shit hits the fan that they take notice (pardon my language).

I agree, cybercoma.

People are not stupid. Most people are very smart about what matters to them.

For example, ask any 18 year old Canadian (French/English) who is the federal PM. Likely, they don't know. But then, ask them the minimum wage or the legal drinking age, and they will go into detail about the local laws, and how to get around it. People are focussed on their own lives. Most people know alot about what matters to them.

Edited January 7, 2013 by August1991

[Bonam]

For example, ask any 18 year old Canadian (French/English) who is the federal PM. Likely, they don't know.

BS. I was 18 not so long ago and remember very clearly that every single one of my peers knew who the "federal PM" was. If you want to make such an assertion, bring some data.

Edited January 7, 2013 by Bonam

[Bryan]

Bryan, you describe a Hollywood movie script, except Hollywood pays its extras.

Our "extras" paid their own way.

The term 'grass-roots' doesn't get any truer than what we did. A lot of people don't know why the vote one way or the other. They just pick a team without thinking. We made it about thinking, and a LOT of people changed 'teams'. We went from 21% to 50% of the vote in four elections.

It's not impossible, anywhere. Problem is, most people have a "can't someone else do it" attitude about the work that goes into a campaign. It's the same with any community activity (sports, schools, community clubs, etc) If enough people just do a little bit, an awful lot can get done.

ask any 18 year old Canadian (French/English) who is the federal PM. Likely, they don't know.

That's crazy talk. It would be very hard to find an 18 yr old who doesn't just know who the current PM is, but is also ready to spout off a rant about why they hate him.

Edited January 7, 2013 by Bryan

[Pliny]

FIFY

Hey, someone doesn't have me on ignore. All right!

.

[cybercoma]

BS. I was 18 not so long ago and remember very clearly that every single one of my peers knew who the "federal PM" was. If you want to make such an assertion, bring some data.

Knowing the name of the PM is irrelevant. Knowing what the PM stands for and whatnot is the important thing.

Regardless, August is right. People know a lot about what matters to them.

[Just Me]

I live in what used to be one of those ridings. Basically it had gone to one party nearly every time since it has existed. A bunch of us decided to change it. We worked hard at each election, gathering more supporters each time, bringing in stronger candidates, and raising more money for campaigns. It took four elections, but we eventually 'took' what was one of the safest ridings in the country, and then increased our lead in the next election after that. Now the other party is already falling into that culture of defeat. I've actually heard their supporters say similar things to your post; that it doesn't matter what 'they' do anymore, 'we' are going to win anyway.

Voting is a bare minimum. Getting involved is what changes things.

But here's the problem, having put all that work in, you changed the MP of a single riding, which given the election didn't come down to a single riding victory, means that all your work, had absolutely not pratical impact on the policies of goverenment.

Even if it did result in a change of governement, one then has to believe that changing the governing party will result in changes that will have a postitive impact on at least a substantial number of Canadians. Given that any party in Canada makes it into power will essentially govern from the center, and the difficulty of predicting that complete impact of any particular policy, assuming a positive impact from any particular party being in power is at best a crap-shoot.

Given that we all have limited time to spend, I'd suggest that there are much more effetive ways to impact on the lives of people than being involved in politics. The same amount of money and effort donated to a homeless shelter (or deserving charity of your choice) likely would have had a much larger and predicatable postitive impact.

If every a party was to propose new ideas that would actually have a real effect on fixing the various problems in Canada, it might be worthwhile to work to put them in power, however as no party wants to take that risk, and all of them are instead on simply going with the status quo, while appealing to the short term interests of their particular consituency to bribe themselves into power, it seems pointless to put any time or effort into helping them.

[Bryan]

But here's the problem, having put all that work in, you changed the MP of a single riding, which given the election didn't come down to a single riding victory, means that all your work, had absolutely not pratical impact on the policies of goverenment.

You couldn't be more wrong. We weren't the only riding that did it. These little movements happened grassroots all over the country, and it DID change the government.

Even if it did result in a change of governement, one then has to believe that changing the governing party will result in changes that will have a positive impact on at least a substantial number of Canadians. Given that any party in Canada makes it into power will essentially govern from the center, and the difficulty of predicting that complete impact of any particular policy, assuming a positive impact from any particular party being in power is at best a crap-shoot.

That's a different issue, and a much larger discussion that depends largely on what changes you were looking for. In my case, I got most of what I was fighting for, so it definitely worked for me.