The Unnanounced Class War

[bud]

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/de66970a-1ddf-11e3-85e0-00144feab7de.html#axzz2fjYGOoU0

dear michael, as someone who continuously reminds others about the rules, you've just broken it. as it's mentioned in the forum rules and guidelines:

All posts must contain some aspect of an argument or attempt to stimulate discussion. Simply posting a URL to an outside source or posting statements that are only one or two sentences long will not be tolerated and the post will be deleted.

[Michael Hardner]

dear michael, as someone who continuously reminds others about the rules, you've just broken it. as it's mentioned in the forum rules and guidelines:

All posts must contain some aspect of an argument or attempt to stimulate discussion. Simply posting a URL to an outside source or posting statements that are only one or two sentences long will not be tolerated and the post will be deleted.[/size]

Fair enough - I deleted the post above and inserted in the post where I made my point.

[Moonlight Graham]

All that being said, anyone who wants to be a part of that 15% (more like ~40% at this point) can choose to do so, just get a technically oriented education, whether university or trade school. A skilled tradesperson does not need to be particularly smart, doesn't pay high tuition fees or rack up a lot of student debt, but easily makes $100k+. The real problem in America is people expecting to get paid well for fluff jobs that don't actually produce anything. Not gonna happen anymore.

If the % of kids enrolling in Bachelor of Arts programs dropped by 50% and those 50% went to school for more technical degrees, the salaries for those technical jobs would plummet based on supply and demand. Trades jobs have increased in income earnings largely because of the shortage of young people signing up over the last decade or 2.

There's only a certain % of people who can get into the top income brackets, and it's very unlikely that's going to change dramatically based on what education people decide to aim to get. Globalization has and is changing the workforce, and has and is changing income distribution in both developed and developing countries. Globalization is a beast that takes very powerful forces to change/direct, and so far it has been steered mainly by politicians and corporations and other powerful players. I haven't seen very much effective action from the majority of working people in the developed world, especially not in US/Canada.

[kimmy]

If everybody gets degrees in computer programming, it'll just mean that computer programming degrees will command lower salaries.

-k

[cybercoma]

More to the point, what's to say people who enrol in arts programs have the manual dexterity or interest in enrolling in the technical trades? Imagine telling a trades person (in a hypothetical world where there's no trade jobs), just go enrol in the Arts, or telling someone with no interest in it to go enrol in accounting courses. It makes me wonder if anyone has been stuck doing a job that they hated doing for any length of time.

[Michael Hardner]

Will it all fall apart before it gets better, I wonder ?

Will people revolt because they can't afford to buy the latest XBox games or will they just pirate them ?

Didn't somebody promise a future where the robots did all the work ?

[eyeball]

Didn't somebody promise a future where the robots did all the work ?

I think our biggest failure was not warning people just how much venality and corruption would persist in the circles that power and wealth occupy. That said, there has certainly been no shortage of science fiction depicting the sort of dystopian future that's unfolding around us.

We also should have paid a lot more attention to what Malthus was trying to say. Of all the hurdles sprouting up in our path sustainability is looming the largest and making it all the more difficult to overcome the others.

[Moonlight Graham]

If everybody gets degrees in computer programming, it'll just mean that computer programming degrees will command lower salaries.

-k

Exactly.

[Argus]

There are, today, huge amounts of cash sitting offshore though. That's particular to the current situation.

I guarantee you that money is not just sitting there. I don't allow a lot of my money to sit in a bank, gathering little or no interest. No company would do so either. That money is invested.

[guyser]

I guarantee you that money is not just sitting there. I don't allow a lot of my money to sit in a bank, gathering little or no interest. No company would do so either. That money is invested.

The phrase is sitting there but means it is out of the hands of CRA (as you well know)

Estimates from the last info dump that CBC reported was $7B CDN ....from Canada.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Guyser2

[Argus]

That's one example. The fact is that cash reserves are near all time highs, correct ?

Cash reserve does not mean cash in this sense. It includes investments which are liquid, ie, can be cashed out/converted into cash fairly easily. Do you honestly think Apple keeps billions of dollars in a bank account somewhere?! Why would they? Apple has something like $150 billion on hand. Invested in the stock market that would probably return a profit of something like $15 billion per year. And of course, capital gains and dividends only get taxed at 15%.

[Argus]

Ok, well then $5K may be a higher break even number than actually required. $5K in 2013 dollars is more accurate.

No, the reverse. You would need more than $5k per future year in taxes. The further in the future, the higher the taxes would have to be to compensate.

[Michael Hardner]

Ok - maybe you can tell me what 'cash reserves' means ? Are there investment vehicles excluded from that designation ?

[Michael Hardner]

No, the reverse. You would need more than $5k per future year in taxes. The further in the future, the higher the taxes would have to be to compensate.

I don't think it makes the public investment unworthwhile, in any case ?

[Argus]

I don't think it makes the public investment unworthwhile, in any case ?

Depends on what other uses you could have had for that money (which is always finite). How many billions/tens of billions do we give to business and industry every year in various blackmail or subsidy programs?

[Moonlight Graham]

My "Republicans cutting food stamps" thread I suppose is related to this thread: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/23033-republicans-in-house-of-reps-vote-to-cut-food-stamps/

[Argus]

Ok - maybe you can tell me what 'cash reserves' means ? Are there investment vehicles excluded from that designation ?

As far as I know it is anything above and beyond what is tied up with the infrastructure of the company. It may or may not exclude certain portions of a stock portfolio if they're considered too large to easily exit or if there are conditions to the investment which require the money not be withdrawn before a given point in time.

Most of Apple's money is being held offshore and is not taxable in the US unless returned to the US, so it would be invested under whatever local laws exist. Not sure how that is reported on Apple's quarterly reports but I don't think it's detailed beyond raw numbers.

[kimmy]

This summer there was a news item in which a McDonald's employee filed a lawsuit against her franchise over their policy that wages would be paid only by payroll debit card. Not by cheque, not by cash, and not by direct deposit to your own bank account. Only through the payroll cards issued through JP Morgan Chase.

What's wrong with that? Well, the cards come stacked with user fees. $1.50 for ATM withdrawals, 75 cents for every transaction, $1 to check your balance, $5 to withdraw at a bank teller. The basis of the lawsuit is that Pennsylvania law requires employees to be given the option to be paid in cash or cheque, and that the banking fees reduce the hourly wage of employees below the federal minimum wage. After an avalanche of negative publicity the franchise operators have changed their policy and now offer payment by direct deposit or cheque as well. The lawsuit has become a class action lawsuit and is still in progress.

So why did this happen? Did the franchise just decide "hey, why don't we rip off our employees by making them pay bank fees to get access to their pay?" Of course not. That wasn't what they set out to do. Here's how the payroll cards are pitched by JP Morgan Chase:

Our online account enrollment process results in automatic card issuance and instantly opens an FDIC-insured bank account that can be used by the government agency for ACH payments. Additionally, by using "My Account" — a Web access service — cardholders can conveniently check their balance, view account activity, communicate with Customer Service and more.

Why use Chase Payroll Card?

• Eliminate the costs of check issuance and processing
• Streamline and simplify the overall payroll issuance process
• Standardize payroll delivery using direct deposit
• Offer the convenience of direct deposit to all employees

Here's how Small Business Trends describes the benefits of these cards:

Employee debit cards offer a convenient alternative to paper checks. A payroll card allows businesses to avoid higher payroll fees. It also gives employees who may not have a bank account an easy way to access their money.

An estimate suggests $68.9 billion will be loaded onto payroll cards by 2017, reports MSN News. So you will be in good company, if you decide on this option.

(Small Business Trends then proceeds to give business owners a whole bunch of cautions that resulted from the McDonald's lawsuit.)

But you can see why small business owners would go this route. "Hey, we're saving on banking fees and the cost of printing cheques! It'll simplify our paperwork so much! And it'll be convenient for the employees!" Except that they either didn't know or didn't care about the fees that the employees would have to pay to get their money.

So, basically what you have is a bank reaching out to business owners, offering them a way to cut their banking expenses and simplify their payroll process, and of course that would appeal to business owners. And in return for this altruistic service to the business community, the bank makes a killing on user fees gouged from low-income earners and teenagers, taking money from the people who can least afford to pay it. And that's another example of The Unannounced Class War.

-k

[dre]

If everybody gets degrees in computer programming, it'll just mean that computer programming degrees will command lower salaries.

-k

They already do. I made almost 200k in late 90's, and now I hire good programmers with two degrees for about 11 bucks an hour.

[kimmy]

They already do. I made almost 200k in late 90's, and now I hire good programmers with two degrees for about 11 bucks an hour.

Clearly those are just millenial slackers who lack the "gumption" to get real jobs.

-k

[dre]

Ok - maybe you can tell me what 'cash reserves' means ? Are there investment vehicles excluded from that designation ?

Yes the majority of them. Cash Reserves refer to highly liquid assets. For example a certificate of deposit showing you had money in a bank account, or a treasury bill. A term deposit or a bond that matures only at a certain point would not be considered cash reserves.

Basically its assets that can be converted to cash instantly without materially effecting the price of the asset.

[dre]

Clearly those are just millenial slackers who lack the "gumption" to get real jobs.

-k

Sarcasm Noted

But really thats an example of exactly what you were talking about. Supply and availability increased way faster than demand and wages plummeted. The same thing is already happening or WILL happen in other sectors. Thats why you have plumbers and mechanics making as much money as people with degrees in engineering, accounting, or computer science... supply is localized. A plumber in my town does not have to compete with plumbers in India, or China, or Manila. A computer programmer does... a manufacturing worker does... a call center worker does... a textiles worker does... a manufacturing workers does...and increasingly engineers, accountants, etc do as well.

Edited October 1, 2013 by dre

[guyser]

This summer there was a news item in which a McDonald's employee filed a lawsuit against her franchise over their policy that wages would be paid only by payroll debit card. Not by cheque, not by cash, and not by direct deposit to your own bank account.

Sounds pretty much like the old company stores where you charged everything to your payment account.

Everyone wins!.....except for the employee.

[Shady]

Obama's policies have contributed to the so-called class war. His acceptance of the federal reserves quantitative easing has done a great job, as intended to prop up the stock market. But who benefits most from that? People most invested in said market. Who's that? Not the middle class. His massive government spending and growth of the federal government has done a great job as well of shielding Washington DC from any economic downturn. That's why the median income of those living in the DC area has skyrocketed compared to the median income of the rest of the country. Who benefits from that? The policial class and the upper class.

[kimmy]

Obama's policies have contributed to the so-called class war. His acceptance of the federal reserves quantitative easing has done a great job, as intended to prop up the stock market. But who benefits most from that? People most invested in said market. Who's that? Not the middle class.

I don't disagree.

He's hired more Wall Street goons to run the government's finances, just like the Bush administration did. The regulations that were supposed to rein in Wall Street and prevent future collapses are just for show. They were neutered before the ink was even dry. The DoJ has been utterly toothless in pursuing Wall Street criminals.

The Tea Partyists keep shrieking "Socialist!" but the truth is, Obama is everything Wall Street could ask for.

-k