Derek 2.0 Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 More evidence Trudeau doesn't have a clue: Asked on Monday to explain why an open competition could not include the F-35, Trudeau said it would cost "tens of billions of dollars more than what is necessary for Canada's air force." Trudeau also named Saab AB's Gripen as a potential contender, even though the Swedish firm had already effectively ruled itself out of the current competition. A Saab spokesman in Stockholm declined to comment. So Trudeau cites cost as a reason to forgo the F-35, naming the Swedish Gripen as an alternative, even though Saab itself pulled out of the Hornet replacement...........Of course, assuming Saab had a change of heart, how does Trudeau expect to save money with the Gripen when: When Dassault was kicked out of the race earlier this week, some speculated that Rousseff might delay the purchase until at least 2015 and focus on the social spending and reform her country was demanding. But as the news broke on Wednesday that the government would spend $4.5 billion on the Gripen deal, those concerns came back on Twitter. $4.5 billion / 36 Gripen NG fighters = ~$125 million per aircraft, or simply put, ~$30 million per aircraft more than what we'll pay for the F-35........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 We don't know their accounting method or what that includes. You can't just go from country to country comparing costs like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 We don't know their accounting method or what that includes. You can't just go from country to country comparing costs like that. Why not? Are you suggesting we'd get a better deal than Brazil? The Gripen NG's astronomic costs are well known within the aerospace community, and is why Norway rejected the Gripen NG (in favor of the cheaper and more capable F-35), likewise why the Swiss cancelled their planned purchase of Gripens........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Why not? Because different countries use different accounting methods. I have no idea what each aircraft would cost. That's why we should have an open competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 I can't help but think of the last time a Liberal leader campaigned on cancelling a defence contract. 22 years later and the Navy is still waiting for its helicopters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Because different countries use different accounting methods. I have no idea what each aircraft would cost. That's why we should have an open competition. Different countries have differing accounting methods for through-life support, not for acquisition from another manufacturer with a fixed price offered to several differing countries at the same price point (The one exception would be US DoD FMS agreements).........as such, the Gripen NG, Rafale, Eurofighter and F-15 Silent Eagle currently cost more than the LRIP F-35, per plane flyaway cost, the Super Hornet is only slightly cheaper than the current F-35 price, likewise block 52/60 F-16s.........as these various programs wind down, their price will increase as the F-35 decreases as it enters full-rate production in ~2018. Hence why not a single JSF partner has left the program, and other nations have joined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Yet Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Cancelling the order was the right thing to do. the F35 is already out-manuevered by both Russian & Chinese jets. It looks menacing but flies like a shoebox and test pilots have been ordered to keep their own opinions to themselves. Canada should not be 100% reliant on U.S. weaponry if better equuipment is available. I cannot forget the Canadian Avro jet which was so superior to American technology it was ordered to be destroyed. Also those in the know about space wepons know damn well that in the event of a WWWIII most jet aircraft will not be needed for offensive roles - only defending the airspace at home and around carrier groups at sea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 I can't help but think of the last time a Liberal leader campaigned on cancelling a defence contract. 22 years later and the Navy is still waiting for its helicopters. Exactly, and we ended up buying the CH-149 anyways, and have been delayed by PM PM's selection of the Cyclone for over a decade......a span in which we could have received our entire order of Merlins if chosen a second time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Cancelling the order was the right thing to do. the F35 is already out-manuevered by both Russian & Chinese jets. It looks menacing but flies like a shoebox and test pilots have been ordered to keep their own opinions to themselves. Canada should not be 100% reliant on U.S. weaponry if better equuipment is available. I cannot forget the Canadian Avro jet which was so superior to American technology it was ordered to be destroyed. Also those in the know about space wepons know damn well that in the event of a WWWIII most jet aircraft will not be needed for offensive roles - only defending the airspace at home and around carrier groups at sea. Exactly. Out maneuvered and also out stealthed. Also why break the bank over something we don't need? And yes, damn that Diefenbaker! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Cancelling the order was the right thing to do. the F35 is already out-manuevered by both Russian & Chinese jets. It looks menacing but flies like a shoebox and test pilots have been ordered to keep their own opinions to themselves. Canada should not be 100% reliant on U.S. weaponry if better equuipment is available. I cannot forget the Canadian Avro jet which was so superior to American technology it was ordered to be destroyed. Also those in the know about space wepons know damn well that in the event of a WWWIII most jet aircraft will not be needed for offensive roles - only defending the airspace at home and around carrier groups at sea. I'd like to see a source that confirms that both the Russian and chinese jets are better or whatever out maneuvered means....maybe a western source.... You suggest better equipment , but don't say what..... The old Avro myth.....i think there is more to it than some conspiracy theory the American had ordered it destroyed..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Exactly. Out maneuvered and also out stealthed. Also why break the bank over something we don't need? And yes, damn that Diefenbaker! And what aircraft are you championing again, was'nt it the super hornet....How is this aircraft going to stand up to foreign aircraft still in the testing phase....how many of these Russian and Chinese aircraft been made todate..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 (edited) I'd like to see a source that confirms that both the Russian and chinese jets are better or whatever out maneuvered means....maybe a western source.... Clearly Chinese and Russian industry The old Avro myth.....i think there is more to it than some conspiracy theory the American had ordered it destroyed..... Indeed, the Arrow's fate was sealed on the day of its first flight, when the Russians also shared a first on that day: Edited September 22, 2015 by Derek 2.0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 And what aircraft are you championing again, was'nt it the super hornet....How is this aircraft going to stand up to foreign aircraft still in the testing phase....how many of these Russian and Chinese aircraft been made todate..... The super hornet would be a sensible choice in that it is a familiar platform for both pilots and ame's to adjust to. However I do agree with the plan to have a proper, transparent bidding process before we open our wallets. Other potential contractors have promised similar benefits to our aerospace industries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 (edited) The super hornet would be a sensible choice in that it is a familiar platform for both pilots and ame's to adjust to. You understand it's almost a completely new aircraft from the Hornet (like 80%)? Edited September 22, 2015 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 You understand it's almost a completely new aircraft from the Hornet (like 80%)? It would take some upgrade training of course, but there are many similarities that would make the transition easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 It would take some upgrade training of course, but there are many similarities that would make the transition easier. Other than the way the front of the aircraft looks, it's completely new...and at the same time, very old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canada_First Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Ok. I'm finding this thread very informative as I know only a little about the new jets. Now as far as I've been told no decisions have been made yet. Has any formal contest been setup? What are we waiting for? Our pilots need new planes and they need them now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 The super hornet would be a sensible choice in that it is a familiar platform for both pilots and ame's to adjust to. However I do agree with the plan to have a proper, transparent bidding process before we open our wallets. Other potential contractors have promised similar benefits to our aerospace industries. How is this aircraft going to stand up to foreign aircraft still in the testing phase....how many of these Russian and Chinese aircraft been made todate..... So how is the super hornet going to fair up again'st the latest the commies have ? How many times is it going to take this fair , transparent process.....do we try until we get another result, anything but the F-35 result..... Yes they have the french have promised us the moon with gravy....but what is it we are looking at the best aircraft or who will give us the most benefits....because that is going to save lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Ok. I'm finding this thread very informative as I know only a little about the new jets. Now as far as I've been told no decisions have been made yet. Has any formal contest been setup? What are we waiting for? Our pilots need new planes and they need them now! F 18's have been extended until 2025. No decision has yet been made. The CPC just went to Lock Mart and thought the deal was done, until the AG report uncovered all the faults of the process and the file seems to have been covered in dust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 (edited) Typhoon, Rafale, and of course Super hornet. And of course what does this so called "5.0 generation" thingy really mean? Edited September 22, 2015 by Army Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canada_First Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 F 18's have been extended until 2025. No decision has yet been made. The CPC just went to Lock Mart and thought the deal was done, until the AG report uncovered all the faults of the process and the file seems to have been covered in dust. 2025? Omg I may well be a senior citizen by the time this is replaced. The f18 is an ancient plane. We cannot afford to sit around and do nothing. The planes will be falling out if the sky by then. We need a replacement today not 10 years from now. Thus smells like another Sea King. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Typhoon, Rafale, and of course Super hornet. And of course what does this so called "5.0 generation" thingy really mean? Sorry i transferred your posts for the ship thread. Once again all your choices have failed to beat out all or most of the F-35 current capabilities.....let alone in price, benefits to industry, etc, etc... while they may be better at a few items, that does not make it the better aircraft.....and they are all 4.5 gen aircraft.... 5.0 generation aircraft are the next generation, advanced tech , and not just in stealth, the most of the aircraft's capabilities have been improved on over the 4.5 gen A/C , or still being worked on.. A fifth-generation jet fighter is a jet fighter classification used around the world which encompasses the most advanced jet fighter generation as of 2015. Fifth-generation aircraft are designed to incorporate numerous technological advances over the fourth-generation jet fighter. The exact characteristics of fifth-generation jet fighters are controversial and vague, with Lockheed Martin defining them as having all-aspect stealth even when armed, low probability of intercept radar (LPIR), high-performance airframes, advanced avionics features, and highly integrated computer systems capable of networking with other elements within the battlespace for situation awareness.[1] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Yes they have the french have promised us the moon with gravy....but what is it we are looking at the best aircraft or who will give us the most benefits....because that is going to save lives. If we're looking for benefits, the Canadian aerospace industry is already producing components for the F-35 in Canada......Boeing (maker of the Super Hornet) doesn't have a similar footprint (they do produce portions of Boeing civilian products) for the Super Hornet, Dassault, Saab and the Eurofighter consortium partners have no such footprint for military aircraft in Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 2025? Omg I may well be a senior citizen by the time this is replaced. The f18 is an ancient plane. We cannot afford to sit around and do nothing. The planes will be falling out if the sky by then. We need a replacement today not 10 years from now. Thus smells like another Sea King. Do you reckon we are about to be attacked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Once again all your choices have failed to beat out all or most of the F-35 current capabilities.....let alone in price, benefits to industry, etc, etc... while they may be better at a few items, that does not make it the better aircraft.....and they are all 4.5 gen aircraft.... Problem is the F 35 only beats out other competitors by what it was hoping to achieve, not what it actually has. When the F 35 fails another parameter, Lock Mart just tries to re write it. The Pentagon is once again admitting they are getting cold feet. Let's not go down that very expensive road. http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/15/politics/f-35-report-question-readiness/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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