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Israel-Palestine 101


bud

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AW and i have been laughing over this old CBS Stan Freberg radio comedy show from 1960 that deals with elements the Arab-Israeli conflict and other events of the time. It's called 'Incident At Los Veroses' and involves a semi-biblical tale about two rival Nevada casinos.

It's on this page under the title 'Musical Sheep'...it's the second skit and it is about 20 minutes long. Funny!

Enjoy....

http://archive.org/d...nFrebergShowThe

Edited by DogOnPorch
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I'm not saying what is in the video is factually false, I'm saying it leaves out a lot. It offers almost no criticism of the Arab/Palestinian side. It's consciously biased toward one side.

the bias is yours, here's your original post....

-"The video is massively biased against Israel. It's 6 minutes of "Israel has been terrible to Palestinians". No mention of Palestinian rockets or suicide bombers. There I just saved you 6 minutes, Bud you owe me those 6 of my life back. The video is a piece of garbage. "

the video spoke of violence on both sides, it didn't go into details of either sides violent past...you want to go into details of rocket attacks, a palestinian would want details of ariel sharon's murderous rampage of ethnic cleansing....

the bias is yours alone, you want only condemnation of palestinians but ignore zionist atrocities...any acknowment of israeli fault is an impossibility in your bubble world...you hear "israel did this" and instantly it's fingers buried up to the knuckle in your ears time...

Edited by wyly
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the bias is yours, here's your original post....

-"The video is massively biased against Israel. It's 6 minutes of "Israel has been terrible to Palestinians". No mention of Palestinian rockets or suicide bombers. There I just saved you 6 minutes, Bud you owe me those 6 of my life back. The video is a piece of garbage. "

the video spoke of violence on both sides, it didn't go into details of either sides violent past...you want to go into details of rocket attacks, a palestinian would want details of ariel sharon's murderous rampage of ethnic cleansing....

the bias is yours alone, you want only condemnation of palestinians but ignore zionist atrocities...any acknowment of israeli fault is an impossibility in your bubble world...you hear "israel did this" and instantly it's fingers buried up to the knuckle in your ears time...

Better vid...

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Gost Hacked I now respond to you directly. You made the accusation I come on this forum with propoganda sites and inferred I engage in the same tactics asBud/Hudson Jones.

Go back and read my post again. Maybe you have the same reading comprehension problems as some of the other posters here as well. Maybe you could have saved yourself some time typing out this long post. But since I got time....

I said "Why not throw in some of your own propaganda sites to balance it out?"

Because in the end it's ALL propaganda. Both sides wanting to tug at my heartstrings in order to feel sad or be empathetic to one or the others cause.

Be my guest put up or shut up. Provide one thread I initiated where I demanded people accept what I said as the only truth as Hudson and Bud do. Go on finish what you start.Show where I come on this forum and have initiated the use of sites to propogate for only one perspective Go on.

Did I say that? No, again I said "Why not throw in some of your own propaganda sites to balance it out?"

I have from time to time provided sources to counter the sources of others. I have never initiated on forum thread as they do with deliberate one sided views with rhetoric designed to inflamme. The sites I have used are journalist sites. Go on find one that insults Arab peoples or Muslims. Go on. Find one where the statements are designed to simply call out Muslims or Arabs terrorists.

Hey I've used journalistic sites as well. It just depends on what view you subscribe to will those articles make a connection to you. Some might call it propaganda, some might call it the gospel.

Finish what you start. Produce the sites. Produce the threads I started depicting all Palestinians as terrorists.

Wow you got all that from one post I made?

I come on this forum to defend Israel's right to exist.Never once have I condemned excessive violence by anyone or hatred of Muslims or Arabs. Can you Hudson/Bud claim the same?

Nope, but you are giving me crap for what they post. Give me crap on my own posts. I am sure you can find a lot wrong with them, as others have.

What you have done evidenced by your latest regurgitated Zionism has parallels to Nazism slur is to show you come on here to slur all Israelis and Jews.

Actions speak louder than words. It is not Israel that is at risk of being driven into the sea. And I take it from Netenyahu himself who never agreed to a two state solution. Don't blame me for his words, and the actions of Israel.

Using the word "has parallels" does not couch your name Zionism is Nazism anti semitic slur but it shows exactly what you contribute to this dialogue-inflammatory name calling designed to insult not just Israelis, but all Jews who have had to survive Nazism.

Hey Naziism gets tossed around for all sorts of reasons on this board. Iran are Nazis, the USA are Nazis. Don't get too offended, I am sure it's not the last time I'll get accused of being an anti-semite. The Jews have shown how resilient they are through all of history, so they are not going anywhere anytime soon, no matter what I think.

I am not a hater of Jews. Being critical of Israel and the political movement that is Zionism is not being anti-semetic. I can dislike Israel (or more specifically the Zionist ruling body), does not mean I hate Jews. But please keep calling me a closet anti-semite if it fits your narrative and view of me.

Get it clear one more time you Sir do not tell me a child of holocaust survivors I parallel Nazis because I believe my people have a right to continue to exist as a political collective. Your accusation is a deliberate insult not just to the memory of those of us alive because of the grace of those who fought to survive the holocaust but everyone who died fighting Nazism.

Touching. There were a lot of people who died during that world war. Estimates of 50 to 70 million died.

It is a deliberate taunt against not just Jews, not just Zionists but everyone who stood up to Nazism. You can couch the attack on Zionists and you can couch the attack using the word parallel but your passive aggressive name calling is there for all to see-here I am and hear me loud and clear-I do not and will never apologize for supporting my collective existence in a state-you want to wipe me out, come try.

Zionism as a political identity and the ideology of the 'Right of Return' existed long before Naziism. So It would be a deliberate taunt against Zionism, not Jews. Jews and Zionism are not synonymous of each other. I am still wondering why I have been called and anti-semite for recognizing the difference between Jews, Israelis and Zionists.

If we Jews are Nazis because twe want collective sufferage then necessarily Palestinians and Muslims are Nazis as well because they advocate the exact same thing. But you knew that right?.

Again reading comprehension or looking for something that is not there. I said Zionism is equated to Naziism, not all Jews are Nazis. But sure I can agree with that assessment.

You being so logical with your name calling you knew that.
You also know full well Egypt, Syria and Iraq were creations of Nazi Germany and this day still use the German Nazi goose step,salute, and uniforms. You of course know Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran use the Nazi salute and deny the holocaust.

And we also know the history of many of these now terrorist organizations have been helped along the way by the UK and the USA and various intelligence agencies. We can also talk about the connections between Israel and the creation of Hamas, but we don't need to get into that now do we?

You know the current terrorist organizations created to wipe out Israel were the creation of the Nazis. You also know the Britain and France joined with the former Nazis after World WarTwo to try prevent an Israeli state and failed.

Muslim Brotherhood is a product of MI5 and the CIA.

But we have all sorts of terrorist groups supported by many players. The USA and UK support terrorism, as does China, the Russians, and even Israel.

Don't tell me taking out Iranian scientists is not terrorism. The Mossad as with any other intelligence agencies are in my view terrorist organizations. I have stated that before. Just because one side thinks it's just does not take away from the fact that these kinds of actions are indeed terrorism.

You knew the Soviets called the Arab League of Nations stooges for the Nazis and colonial imperialisyts in 1948 and 1949.You know of course it was the Soviets who created the phrase Zionism is Nazism when they suddenly switched sides and decided the same Arab League nations they called imperialist colonial puppet states suddenly became Soviet allies when Israel refused to become a Soviet puppet state and turn against the US.

So there was an Arab League of Nations and a League of Nations? The Soviets were nothing more than an enemy of my enemy type situation. I was always confused about how during WWII the Soviets were a loose ally of the West to fight Germany and Japan and how they become bitter enemies of the USA during the following Cold War era.

You know of course the creation of Israel is something Elenor Roosevelt a gentile spent so many years to achieve precisely because

she argued to the entire world Jews were entitled to a state of their own precisely because of wide spread Nazi support in Europe that meant remaining there an impossibility for Jews.

I would argue that using the term 'gentile' is derogatory to non-Jews.

You know of course about dhimmitude in the Arab Muslim states that do not seperate Islam from state, and that defined and still defines Jews in these nations as inferiors.

True, but Zionism cannot separate the religion from the state either. By default that would be a form of dhimmitude to others who are not of the Jewish religion living within Israel.

You of course have no problem with Muslims having states or Christians having states, but when Jews want but one state-suddenly you say we have parallels with Nazis-the very organization whose views demanded the extermination of us.

Actually I have a problem with any religious state. All of them put their trust in some mystical sky creature in which many of these groups have been fighting with each other for centuries to prove that their god, their religion is right and just. Even fighting over the same patch of land for eons. But fighting over this patch of land has predated religion. But I guess since the Jews were kicked out centuries ago (as some say the spoils go to the winner) it's only proper to displace the current population within what is now called Israel in order for the right of return to happen. That's a long time to hold a grudge.

Because This Land is Mine.

You are a coward for trying to couch your words. You don't have the integrity to come right out and call Jews Nazi pigs.

I've have mentioned a couple times that i don't recognize Israel as a country, but in spite of my best efforts, they manage to push on through. Congrats to them. I don't need to couch my words, they are all there for everyone to see. Take it as you will.

Go on you know where to find me when you have the courage.

Sitting behind another keyboard couching words being passive aggressive. Just like me.

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the bias is yours alone, you want only condemnation of palestinians but ignore zionist atrocities...any acknowment of israeli fault is an impossibility in your bubble world...you hear "israel did this" and instantly it's fingers buried up to the knuckle in your ears time...

How is this possible when I don't really have a "side", and if forced to choose I'd probably go with the Palestinians. So your assumptions about me are 100% wrong. You're being foolish because any criticism of this video automatically makes me an Israeli-backer anti-Palestinian xenophobe? I acknowledge every single criticism of Israeli actions in that film. I agree with them! The video just doesn't make much of an attempt to balance that with criticism of Arab/Palestinian actions.

Tell me this: do you side more with the Israelis or Palestinians? Or are you neutral?

Edited by Moonlight Graham
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Better vid...

This video has a lot more very important historical facts the other vid missed, like the Balfour Declaration and the Peel Plan etc. However, it misses many other. It barely even mentions the 1967 war. This isn't a summary of the conflict, it's an argument of how the Palestinians have missed out on multiple opportunities to have their own state with much more in deals that included much more land than Gaza/WB has now. This claim is mostly true, the Palestinian have missed out on these opportunities that given the recent situation they look mostly foolish for rejecting, but hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

However, this film is clearly biased against the Palestinian side in tone and the facts it covers. It's not really any better than the OP video IMHO. It's criticisms of Palestinians/Arabs are far greater than that of Israelis/Zionists.

Edited by Moonlight Graham
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How is this possible when I don't really have a "side", and if forced to choose I'd probably go with the Palestinians. So your assumptions about me are 100% wrong. You're being foolish because any criticism of this video automatically makes me an Israeli-backer anti-Palestinian xenophobe? I acknowledge every single criticism of Israeli actions in that film. I agree with them! The video just doesn't make much of an attempt to balance that with criticism of Arab/Palestinian actions.

rolleyes.gif nice edit, let's put the part you edited out back in...

.Moonlight graham-"The video is massively biased against Israel. It's 6 minutes of "Israel has been terrible to Palestinians". No mention of Palestinian rockets or suicide bombers. There I just saved you 6 minutes, Bud you owe me those 6 of my life back. The video is a piece of garbage. "

the video was immediately garbage for no mention of palestinian rockets and suicide bombers, but it did mention violence on both sides it didn't dwell on palestinian violence and as it didn't dwell on zionist slaughters/ethnic cleansing either...where was your outrage for the not mentioning organized zionist murder and ethnic cleansing??? why the double standard....are you going to edit out this biased contradiction again

Tell me this: do you side more with the Israelis or Palestinians? Or are you neutral?
It took awhile for me to get past the slanted history I was taught in school "arabs/muslims are evil" but I've a Palestinian supporter for decades...:"lebensraum" is a concept my family saw up close, and I know it when I see it...
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This video has a lot more very important historical facts the other vid missed, like the Balfour Declaration and the Peel Plan etc. However, it misses many other. It barely even mentions the 1967 war. This isn't a summary of the conflict, it's an argument of how the Palestinians have missed out on multiple opportunities to have their own state with much more in deals that included much more land than Gaza/WB has now. This claim is mostly true, the Palestinian have missed out on these opportunities that given the recent situation they look mostly foolish for rejecting, but hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

However, this film is clearly biased against the Palestinian side in tone and the facts it covers. It's not really any better than the OP video IMHO. It's criticisms of Palestinians/Arabs are far greater than that of Israelis/Zionists.

ahh the balfour declaration what a fantastic plan.... Imperial power divide up a region giving it away to immigrants over the objections of the inhabitants ya that was just a brilliant plan, european zionist movement negotiates with european powers the formation of a jewsih nation in palestine, no one bothered to consult the palestinian inhabitants, ya that was fairrolleyes.gif ...ya it's the palestinians own fault for not letting the imperial powers give their land away serves them right....oh ya no bias in your stance on the issue cool.png ... Edited by wyly
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First to respond to Wyly who claims Israel is ethnic cleansing. This is yet another example of the rhetoric that gets thrown out continuously by anti-Israelis and one has to ask does Wyly even know what it is he throws out.

If Israel was as he says ethnic cleansing it would have forced all Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank and claimed both. It never did.

It was in fact the Arab League of Nations that forced Palestinians into refugee camps including the open air prison of Gaza so they could not enter Arab countries. It was the Arab League who said no to Palestinians and that they will keep them imprisoned in refugee camps until all of Israeli is given back to the Arab world. They have used Palestinians as pawns and people like you have no clue how they treat them and why they do.

In your world it was not Arab Muslims from outside Palestine who swamped the area and displaced more Palestinians then any Jew did-no in your world we skip that. We ignore that.

We accuse instead Israel of ethnic cleansing on the West Bank when they in fact have not moved any Palestinians out of the West Bank.

You use the word to infer Israel is mass murdering Palestinians. They are not. Their population rate since `948 speaks for itself.

More to the point in your selective world, no Jew was ever ethnically cleansed from Arab nations. The 900,000 expelled you make zero mention of.

The fact more Jews were forcefully displaced than Palestinians escapes your mind and it is precisely that selective take on history that simply

spews the same b.s. about the origins of this conflict onto this web site and we speak once again in circles.

Second to Gost(sick) you again show ignorance for the holocaust. You ignore the fact Jews were specifically targetted for mass murder and the number game in your response to me which typically downplays the hoplocaust as nothing-just some deaths among 70 million shows the pith and substance of the anti-semitism in your comments. You refuse deliberately to see Jews as a collective of people and use the Middle East conflict to

ridicule the holocaust by trivializing the deaths as nothing special.

You then show more repeated ignorance of Jewish history by making the ridiculous statement that Zionism preexisted Nazism. Yes so did mass slaughter of Jews in pogroms for over 2,500 years-so your point? Did you even have one? Do you think ZIonism just popped out of a cabbage leaf.

It was a direct response. It was an existential response to extinction. We went back whence we came as a last stand. You can ridicule that all you want

but that does not surprise me. Your ignorance of Jewish history and what we were forced to endure in the Christian and Muslim worlds continues. It is the kind of ignorance that will always be there for us to confront.

So now that you have trivialized the holocaust lets ask-what are your origins-Polish? Russian? Ukrainian? German? Have you looked in your family tree before you trivialize Jewish history? Maybe you should look because if you look far enough you might find be3fore you tell me I have parallels with Nazis, that you have someone in your family tree who killed or tortured a Jew...see that is precisely what I mean by finish what you start-you want to

turn the Middle East into a circus to ridicule the holocaust and the fact that my relatives had to fight to survive, I will stand up to you and when you throw 70 million around like some football score you reveal yourself for exactly what you are-someone who trivializes death as some kind

of football score.

Now Gost you explain how it is you have no problems with the United Kingdom being an Anglican state, the Vatican being a Catholic state, India protecting Hinduism in its state structure, and most importantly the very same Muslim states who do not seperate Islam from the state running Muslim nations, but when Jews create a state to survive, they are the only group in the world you deny?

Why the double standard? Why? Do you even know where your denial comes from. It goes right back to the holocaust and trivializing it as

just more deaths. You refuse to acknowledge where we come from and why we have a collective and that makes you an anti-semite.

Criticizing Israeli foreign policy does not. Criticizing Israeli armed forces excessive force on the West Bank or its settlement policy does not. Refusing to recognize us as a collective and trivializing our suffering that culminated in the creation of Israel does.

As for the Bud-Hudson Jones propaganda exercise-its time you ask yourself how it is they will make accusations of American Women and in the same breath engage in the very exercise they accuse her of.

What I say to you and Wyly is-neither of you understand the holocaust or the actual day to day issues of Palestinians or Jews. You speak for neither and your ignorance of Jewish history speaks for itself.

Your arm chair name calling is passive aggressive. It offers no solutions. All you do is name call.

I again say to this forum, lets talk specific solutions. Calling Israel names is no more productive than calling Muslims or Palestinians names.

The name calling that is passed as debate is not.

Your mission to simply come on this board and spew out the same recycled anti semitic and anti Israel canards is spent.

As for you Hudson, you can hide from me and refuse to respond. It shows your credibility. You demand people respond to you on your terms and then hide when you are spoken to the same way.

That is a lesson many should duly note. You speak, one thing and demonstrate another and that disconnect is precisely the proof of your lack of

credibility.

I say again, Israelis and Palestinians will prevail despite propaganda agents such as you.

One last thing. Someone explain to Gost that gentile has never been used as derogatory just the opposite and once again he shows his ignorance of

Jews and Jewish history and the use of the word. Calling some a gentile is not a derogation. This is precisely why there is a monument to righteous

gentiles in Israel. Maybe someone should tell this Gost he really does need to find out what a gentile is let alone a Jew and why neither word by itself

is derogatory and the word itself is only that-its the context of how such words that are used that gives them their meaning.

Gentile is the direct translation of non Jew. Now let's hear Gost explain how a word that comes from congeniality is derogatory.

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This video has a lot more very important historical facts the other vid missed, like the Balfour Declaration and the Peel Plan etc. However, it misses many other. It barely even mentions the 1967 war. This isn't a summary of the conflict, it's an argument of how the Palestinians have missed out on multiple opportunities to have their own state with much more in deals that included much more land than Gaza/WB has now. This claim is mostly true, the Palestinian have missed out on these opportunities that given the recent situation they look mostly foolish for rejecting, but hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

However, this film is clearly biased against the Palestinian side in tone and the facts it covers. It's not really any better than the OP video IMHO. It's criticisms of Palestinians/Arabs are far greater than that of Israelis/Zionists.


Surprise, surprise.

The 6 Day War is well documented to those familiar with history. Most documentaries provide a fairly objective viewpoint.

Edited by DogOnPorch
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The original video omits a lot of detail from the conflict but I don't think it does this to try to be sneaky or deceit people. Not like the other video posted in this thread. The omission of detail in the original video comes at the expense of both sides. I think it does a good job highlighting the major points while trying to cover 100 years in a few minutes. I see nothing wrong with showing that the Palestinians have been the oppressed and victims from the time the Zionist Organization decided to create a Jewish homeland in an already inhabited land by having migrants, mostly from Europe to systematically grab land and displace the inhabitants. Whatever reaction this act of injustice has caused is just that; a reaction. With or without the reactions, the displacement and the theft of land is the major cause of the problem.

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It was in fact the Arab League of Nations that forced Palestinians into refugee camps including the open air prison of Gaza so they could not enter Arab countries. It was the Arab League who said no to Palestinians and that they will keep them imprisoned in refugee camps until all of Israeli is given back to the Arab world. They have used Palestinians as pawns and people like you have no clue how they treat them and why they do.

Because the Palestinians have always wanted their own state. Netenyahu says Jordan is the Palestinian state and concludes that there should never be a 'second' Palestinian state. The reasons he states are that they would be created at the expense of the only Jewish state. Now that we have a declaration from the UN and recognition of a Palestinian state, the Jewish state is still alive and well.

We accuse instead Israel of ethnic cleansing on the West Bank when they in fact have not moved any Palestinians out of the West Bank.

Displacing the Palestinians through the illegal settlements making it harder for them to move around their own land could be considered ethnic cleansing. Israel's recent response of approving 3000 new Israeli homes in the West Bank was a direct push back on the UN and recognition of the state. Israel is not helping the situation by continuing the open air prison that is Gaza. When some basic necessities for life are blockaded from the Gazans what is one to conclude otherwise?

We can also look at all the checkpoints in the West Bank making it difficult for the Palestinians to move freely within the occupied territory.

You use the word to infer Israel is mass murdering Palestinians. They are not. Their population rate since `948 speaks for itself.

Mass murder is what it is. These air strikes on homes is just that. The attack on the Hamas leader who was bringing back a peace deal also shows Israeli intentions

More to the point in your selective world, no Jew was ever ethnically cleansed from Arab nations. The 900,000 expelled you make zero mention of.

Ethnic cleansing is happening all over the world to various groups. But historically we only really ever hear about this one.

The fact more Jews were forcefully displaced than Palestinians escapes your mind and it is precisely that selective take on history that simply

spews the same b.s. about the origins of this conflict onto this web site and we speak once again in circles.

This conversation has been going round and round a lot longer than you and I have been arguing about it. Does the argument end with us? Somehow I don't think it will.

Second to Gost(sick) you again show ignorance for the holocaust. You ignore the fact Jews were specifically targetted for mass murder and the number game in your response to me which typically downplays the hoplocaust as nothing-just some deaths among 70 million shows the pith and substance of the anti-semitism in your comments. You refuse deliberately to see Jews as a collective of people and use the Middle East conflict to

ridicule the holocaust by trivializing the deaths as nothing special.

There were other groups specifically targeted as well. It's not trivial or disrespectful to say that Jews were not the only group deliberately targeted during that war. The haulocaust of the jews is put front and center.

You then show more repeated ignorance of Jewish history by making the ridiculous statement that Zionism preexisted Nazism. Yes so did mass slaughter of Jews in pogroms for over 2,500 years-so your point? Did you even have one? Do you think ZIonism just popped out of a cabbage leaf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Zionism is an older ideology than Naziism.

The common denominator among all Zionists is the claim to Eretz Israel as the national homeland of the Jews and as the legitimate focus for the Jewish national self-determination (as shown, among others, by Gideon Shimoni).[9] It is based on historical ties and religious traditions linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel.[10] Zionism does not have a uniform ideology, but has evolved in a dialogue among a plethora of ideologies: General Zionism, Religious Zionism, Labor Zionism, Revisionist Zionism, Green Zionism, etc.

After almost two millennia of existence of the Jewish diaspora without a national state, the Zionist movement was founded in the late 19th century by secular Jews, largely as a response by Ashkenazi Jews to rising antisemitism in Europe, exemplified by the Dreyfus affair in France and the Anti-Jewish pogroms in the Russian Empire.[11] The political movement was formally established by the Austro-Hungarian journalist Theodor Herzl in 1897 following the publication of his book Der Judenstaat.[12] At that time, the movement sought to encourage Jewish migration to the Ottoman Palestine.

Late 19th century means during the later part of the 1800s. Zionism predates Naziism.

It was a direct response. It was an existential response to extinction. We went back whence we came as a last stand. You can ridicule that all you want

but that does not surprise me. Your ignorance of Jewish history and what we were forced to endure in the Christian and Muslim worlds continues. It is the kind of ignorance that will always be there for us to confront.

Zionism cannot be a direct response to Naziism as it predates Naziism. I don't buy your timelines. The notion of a right of return to create Israel came before even WWI, so again your timelines/reasons/justifications for the creation of Israel are not inline with history.

So now that you have trivialized the holocaust lets ask-what are your origins-Polish? Russian? Ukrainian? German? Have you looked in your family tree before you trivialize Jewish history? Maybe you should look because if you look far enough you might find be3fore you tell me I have parallels with Nazis, that you have someone in your family tree who killed or tortured a Jew...see that is precisely what I mean by finish what you start-you want to

turn the Middle East into a circus to ridicule the holocaust and the fact that my relatives had to fight to survive, I will stand up to you and when you throw 70 million around like some football score you reveal yourself for exactly what you are-someone who trivializes death as some kind

of football score.

The Holocaust might have been a catalyst for the creation of Israel, but was never the sole reason or a major reason or even the original reason that lent to its creation.

Now Gost you explain how it is you have no problems with the United Kingdom being an Anglican state, the Vatican being a Catholic state, India protecting Hinduism in its state structure, and most importantly the very same Muslim states who do not seperate Islam from the state running Muslim nations, but when Jews create a state to survive, they are the only group in the world you deny?

As I said before, I have a problem with all religious states. Leadership based on ideologies of their sky god being better than another is problematic, and has proven as such over the centuries that religion has existed in. Sure man has been waring with each other for much longer, but now we justify it by appeasing some god or religious concept.

Why the double standard? Why? Do you even know where your denial comes from. It goes right back to the holocaust and trivializing it as

just more deaths. You refuse to acknowledge where we come from and why we have a collective and that makes you an anti-semite.

And yet more modern massacres like that in the Congo and abroad are off the radar. But anything that pushes back on the Holocaust is a nice way to claim someone an anti-semite. That game is getting old.

Criticizing Israeli foreign policy does not. Criticizing Israeli armed forces excessive force on the West Bank or its settlement policy does not. Refusing to recognize us as a collective and trivializing our suffering that culminated in the creation of Israel does.

Yes but even when it's criticism of their foreign policy or the excessive force in the West Bank is considered by many as anti-semetic. I know you have taken some of those to task as well.

What I say to you and Wyly is-neither of you understand the holocaust or the actual day to day issues of Palestinians or Jews. You speak for neither and your ignorance of Jewish history speaks for itself.

I've never made the claim that I speak for anyone else but myself. I would assume Wyly speaks for himself and himself only.

Your arm chair name calling is passive aggressive. It offers no solutions. All you do is name call.

I made a couple small comments and we get the same passive aggressiveness from you.

I again say to this forum, lets talk specific solutions. Calling Israel names is no more productive than calling Muslims or Palestinians names.

The name calling that is passed as debate is not.

Lots of name calling happens.

Your mission to simply come on this board and spew out the same recycled anti semitic and anti Israel canards is spent.

Calling someone an anti-semite, that canard has also been spent, and then some.

As for you Hudson, you can hide from me and refuse to respond. It shows your credibility. You demand people respond to you on your terms and then hide when you are spoken to the same way.

I don't desire or feel the need to seek credibility from anyone here on this board.

That is a lesson many should duly note. You speak, one thing and demonstrate another and that disconnect is precisely the proof of your lack of

credibility.

I don't desire or feel the need to seek credibility from anyone here on this board.

I say again, Israelis and Palestinians will prevail despite propaganda agents such as you.

Congratulations.

One last thing. Someone explain to Gost that gentile has never been used as derogatory just the opposite and once again he shows his ignorance of Jews and Jewish history and the use of the word. Calling some a gentile is not a derogation. This is precisely why there is a monument to righteous

gentiles in Israel. Maybe someone should tell this Gost he really does need to find out what a gentile is let alone a Jew and why neither word by itself

is derogatory and the word itself is only that-its the context of how such words that are used that gives them their meaning.

Gentile is the direct translation of non Jew. Now let's hear Gost explain how a word that comes from congeniality is derogatory.

Hmm, maybe you are right here. But since you are wrong about the timelines of Zionism, it kind of throws the rest of your argument out the window.

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I see nothing wrong with showing that the Palestinians have been the oppressed and victims from the time the Zionist Organization decided to create a Jewish homeland in an already inhabited land by having migrants, mostly from Europe to systematically grab land and displace the inhabitants.

The Mufti was also practicing his own brand of Zionism. His reconstruction of al-Aqsa and Omar's mosque on donated money was in order to promote Jerusalem as Islam's so-called third holiest site and to counter Zionism. This attracted many Arabs to the area. Jerusalem's role in Islam had been largely forgotten as it was Omar, not 'Allah', that decided the Jewish temple site was the very spot Mohammed went to heaven. This occurred in 637 AD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%28637%29

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More information about Israel and its treatment of Palestinians and how Israel destroys Palestinian water supplies:

Since the beginning of the year, Israel has destroyed 35 rainwater cisterns used by Palestinian communities, 20 of them in the area of Hebron and the southern Hebron Hills. In 2011, Israel destroyed 15 cisterns, and in the preceding 18 months, 29. In many of these cases ancient cisterns were destroyed that had served the forefathers of the inhabitants of these communities. Recently, they have been restored with European assistance. The cisterns show the continuity of Palestinian habitation long before 1948. Usually, the communities whose cisterns were destroyed are a short distance from settlements and unauthorized outposts that enjoy a regular water supply. At the same opportunity the Civil Administration almost always destroys Palestinian tents, animal pens and food storage facilities.

This information is based on data from the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, Rabbis for Human Rights and the Association of Civil Rights in Israel. The spokesman for the military Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories did not respond to Haaretz's queries about the number of cisterns destroyed over the past two years, or why the restoration of an ancient cistern is considered an offense.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/drying-out-the-palestinians-1.483747

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I've have mentioned a couple times that i don't recognize Israel as a country, but in spite of my best efforts, they manage to push on through. Congrats to them. I don't need to couch my words, they are all there for everyone to see. Take it as you will.

Interesting. In your opinion Israel isn't a real country. That explains a few things.

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It took awhile for me to get past the slanted history I was taught in school "arabs/muslims are evil" but I've a Palestinian supporter for decades...:"lebensraum" is a concept my family saw up close, and I know it when I see it...

Yes I, and everyone else, can clearly see your strong bias from a mile away.

ahh the balfour declaration what a fantastic plan.... Imperial power divide up a region giving it away to immigrants over the objections of the inhabitants ya that was just a brilliant plan, european zionist movement negotiates with european powers the formation of a jewsih nation in palestine, no one bothered to consult the palestinian inhabitants, ya that was fairrolleyes.gif ...ya it's the palestinians own fault for not letting the imperial powers give their land away serves them right....oh ya no bias in your stance on the issue cool.png ...

I never had any comment on the Balfour Declaration in my post, just that the Declaration is historically significant and should be included in any summary of the conflict. So where where exactly do you see the " bias in [my] stance on the issue"? laugh.png

You've clearly gone completely bananas on me, plus you're biased beyond any fair discussion on this issue so I'm not going to respond to your comments in this thread anymore. You're wasting my time.

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Guest American Woman
I had too many other things going at the time to bother posting a response, but you lost credibility with me back when you posted that sob story testimonial of an Israeli woman complaining about having to run to air raid shelter every time the air raid siren goes off!

First of all, how would that make me lose credibility? What I posted is true. It wasn't fake, it wasn't a lie, it was this woman's reality. It wasn't the point I was making, but seriously - if the U.S. were shooting missiles at you and your family, you wouldn't think that was a big deal? And if you complained about it, the world could in effect say "cry me a river?" It would be nothing but a "sob story?" Unbelievable.

It never occurred to you that on the other side there are NO shelters!

Since I've commented on that more than once, I would say it's obvious that it has occurred to me. But here's the thing. That doesn't make the missiles being shot at the woman I quoted any less a danger to her and her family.

Which is precisely why the casualty figures end up 3 to 176 after the bombing campaign has ended.

It's one of the reasons, but the woman in Israel can't do anything about that. Palestinian leaders should build them. Do you think the Israeli woman built the bomb shelter herself - or do you think the Israeli government did? - out of concern for its citizens?

Another reason the casualty figures are higher in Palestine is that rockets and ammo are stored in areas populated by civilians. Those in charge are endangering civilian lives by their actions. It's called "criminal endangerment" to put innocent lives at risk that way.

Also, there were some deaths due to errant Palestinian rockets - which are sometimes attributed to Israel in the media - and perhaps in the death count. How many Israeli deaths were due to errant Israeli actions?

Sometimes Syrians are portrayed as dead Palestinians, too. But that hasn't caused you to lose credibility??

Hamas has made it clear that it will not accept Israel. There are many videos out there calling for the destruction of Israel - and not just from Hamas. It seems to me that the Islamic nations that the world recognizes and accepts as Islamic nations are not very willing to accept a Jewish state. One Jewish state. Do you disagree?

I have said time and again that I support a Palestinian state, but I will not support it at the expense of Israel. Jews have as much a right to their own state as Muslims do.

Edited by American Woman
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Yes I, and everyone else, can clearly see your strong bias from a mile away.

I never had any comment on the Balfour Declaration in my post, just that the Declaration is historically significant and should be included in any summary of the conflict. So where where exactly do you see the " bias in [my] stance on the issue"? laugh.png

You've clearly gone completely bananas on me, plus you're biased beyond any fair discussion on this issue so I'm not going to respond to your comments in this thread anymore. You're wasting my time.

laugh.png what a fraud! of course you're going to bail for the second time you've selectively edited my post again refusing to acknowledge your obvious bias...in the internet world that's what's known as a "concern troll" - pretending to be objective/unbiased while you anything but...laugh.png

there are only two positions on zionism, for or against ethnic cleansing... those who claim to be in between either don't know anything of the situation or they're lying...I've watched and studied the situation for 50yrs long enough to make an informed opinion, blinded by pro-zionist in my early years I originally supported the Israeli's but blatant racism has put me firmly into the just cause of palestinian rights...

run away! run away! the moonlight response to being caught out...cool.png

Edited by wyly
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Hamas spewing love from every orifice.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/12/10/where-was-the-outrage-as-hundreds-of-thousands-hamas-chief-in-gaza-world-remains-silent-israel/

“God willing, we shall liberate Palestine together, inch by inch,” Mr. Meshaal told university students on Sunday, referring to the West Bank, Gaza, Jerusalem and Israel. “We started this path and we are going to continue until we achieve what God has promised.”

At a rally on Saturday, he promised to liberate the entire land of “Palestine.”

“Palestine from the river to the sea, from the north to the south, is our land and we will never give up one inch or any part of it,” he said, “We will never recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation.”

His Gaza speeches were in stark contrast to an interview he gave CNN less than a month ago when he said Hamas was “ready to resort to a peaceful way, truly peaceful way, without blood and weapon.” He also said Hamas had accepted a two-state solution based on the borders of 1967.

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