bleeding heart Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 and the type of people walmart has working? the turn over is high and these are generally people who only work part time, don't really need a "real job", walmart turn over is very high I'd suggest to you that the majority of Walmart employees desperately need the job...and that it's certainly a "real" job, just as "real" as any job you've ever worked...and the turnover is high because the company policies are sometimes hostile to their own labour force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 I'd suggest to you that the majority of Walmart employees desperately need the job...and that it's certainly a "real" job, just as "real" as any job you've ever worked...and the turnover is high because the company policies are sometimes hostile to their own labour force. walmart is where people work until they can find a real job... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) People on the left like to downgrade the value of private sector, non-union jobs. Whenever employment numbers improve I constantly hear people say that they were just "McJob" that don't supply a living wage. WTF is a Living wag anyway? The days where one person can support a family are not with us anymore. Not everyone can get a public sector unionized job. If everyone had those jobs then there'd be no one way the salaries. BTW Canada added 59.300 jobs in November. http://www.thestar.com/business/article/1298982--canada-added-59-300-jobs-in-november Edited December 7, 2012 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 WTF is a Living wag anyway? The days where one person can support a family are not with us anymore. I object to the very concept of observing an economy and commenting on it as though it were weather. The economy is chaotic, but it is largely a human creation - a product of politics, policy, moral codes and human factors as well as physical ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 walmart is where people work until they can find a real job... Not only. And why do you keep insisting it's not a "real job"? I worked there, for a time. It's as real as any other job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Not only. And why do you keep insisting it's not a "real job"? I worked there, for a time. It's as real as any other job. Some people work at a department store and move up the ladder and do quite well for themselves. Holding to the position that retail positions aren't "real jobs" is quite elitist and off putting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleeding heart Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) Holding to the position that retail positions aren't "real jobs" is quite elitist and off putting. I'm inclined to agree. I've heard such remarks, as well as derision and mockery about retail employees, many times, here on MLW, from liberals and conservatives alike. So it's a bipartisan snobbery. I don't think people really mean it this way, however. I guess since I used to work there, I see the labour force as ordinary, hardworking human beings, rather than as losers and drones. I'm not normally one to say "in the old days"....but it does seem to me that a generation or two ago, more people had respect for work...regardless of what that work was. so while people complain about people on social assistance, or folks who aren't looking for work because they can't find a job "suitable for their skills".....I would hope that having a little respect for Walmart employees is in order. There...preaching done for the day! Edited December 7, 2012 by bleeding heart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 being a general contractor I could break the costs for you and they're reasonable...there are a couple that seem high(49 hrs to paint the office for one) but without knowing the details such as the room size, windows/doors, furnishings, type of coating and how it was was applied etc. it's impossible to judge if it was high or not... and if there are alterations to something covered by strict building codes like electrical or plumbing the alterations often need to brought up to the new code standards, sometimes you wish you didn't start those renovations/repairs... people think because they can run down to Rona and cut a key for a couple of bucks so that's all it should cost... but when your hiring someone to do it that person has to take time out of their day which includes travel time, mark up on materials, and if they're an employee they're billed out at double wages to cover benefits and profit, and the employee needs to be paid a livable wage otherwise they won't do it, no one works for free... Exactly. The cost of your key being cut at Rona is subsidized by the profits they make on other things. They do it for a minimal fee as a courtesy. Mostly because they want you to buy the locksets from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) I suspect it didn't require 4 men, but who knows. The problem here is that simple jobs can't be done by people in the school. The fact that you HAVE TO farm out the service to a contractor for simple odd-jobs is ridiculous. Apparently the Janitor can't do any of this. He has to go to a computer and order the work to be done and someone will be sent out. The article said it took SEVEN EFFIN DAYS to get someone to come out to replace two smoke alarms. It's not the janitor's job. That's not what (s)he's being paid to do. You don't get an electrician to install plumbing in your house. Even if (s)he's capable. Edited December 10, 2012 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Or it could have been a 4 wall room with one window. I think the time billed is more of the problem. I remember I called a Washing Machine Repairman to my place because it stopped working suddenly. I thought the thing was broken and needed fixing. He showed up and found out the Machine simply blew a fuse, easy fix but I had to drop $80 for him to do that for me because of the time. One time my Furnace stopped working. I had no clue why so I called the people that do the maintenance on my furnace. He found out the pilot light went out. He taught me how to re-light and charged me $150 (said he could have charged me more) And? You called in a professional. Not only are you paying for his knowledge, you need to also cover his salary, the materials, his benefits, his insurances (that way he can't sue you if he breaks his neck on your property), the depreciation on his vehicle, the gas it took to get him there.... You see where I'm going with this? He incurs a significant number of expenses to show up to your house for 5 mins and change a fuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 It's not the janitor's job. That's not what (s)he's being paid to do. You don't get an electrician to install plumbing in your house. Even if (s)he's capable. Well this is the problem then. Again we aren't saying that the Janitor should be doing electrical work. But screwing in a pencil sharpener? I don't think a contractor should be required for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 aware it's an issue or that there are concerns about price/value....unless you know the entire story more than a dollar figure and a very vague job descriptions your dealing with perception/sticker shock... .it's just like our discussions on healthcare, people on the outside have a perception of what's going on but in reality have very little idea of how things work...and another common theme, everyone believes their work is more valuable than everyone else "I went to uni so deserve more than that guy who only went to a technical college"...I the appreciate the work teachers do I have good idea of what's involved and I don't question their knowledge and wages while many on this forum think they do nothing to earn their money...contractors/tradespeople have the same issues, people on the outside know little or nothing how things are done and come up with all kinds of erroneous perceptions of things are done and should be done... This post sums up my perception of a hell of a lot of threads on this forum. Cheers, wyly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Well this is the problem then. Again we aren't saying that the Janitor should be doing electrical work. But screwing in a pencil sharpener? I don't think a contractor should be required for that. Do the toilets not get cleaned that day? Because it's not part of the janitors job to be doing that work. So (s)he either does the work that's assigned to him or he skips his own work to do side jobs.I'm sure the janitor can find the time, but I'm just saying its not the janitor's job. Why should the janitor do it? Why should the teacher take time out of their day to do it? Why should the principal or anyone else? There is someone whose job it is to do these repairs. Everyone has a role to play and every second you spend performing someone else's role, you're either not performing your role or not getting paid to perform the additional role. If you're not getting paid for it, then the school board will have an inaccurate picture of the true cost of running their operations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) That's not what the issue is here. Regarding teachers, they are fairly compensated for what they do. But they're throwing a public temper tantrum now because the Province, which is broke, want to pair back some of their bennies. In 2008/9 when many people were being asked to take Furlough's the teacher's got double digit raises. The issue in this thread is that a School Board, that's also broke, refuses to take part in any cost cutting measures. Yet a Contractors Union has a sole sourced contract that says they do everything in the school. Even putting in a pencil sharpener or screwing in a light bulb. That's not public money well spent. Why do they even have a Janitor if he can't do anything? The province will need to take control of this board and they'll be forced to make cuts that may not be appealing, but it's the board's own fault. The custodians keep the property clean. Contractors do the repairs. They're separate roles. If you want to combine them, you'll have to give the janitors more time or hire more of them. You're not getting rid of any expense that way. Edited December 10, 2012 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 It would save a lot of money to have a handyman onsite that could do a variety of stuff. That's what the Janitor used to be. I'm going to stop replying after this because it seems wyly has gone through this all and I'll just be flooding the thread, but having a handyman on site won't save money. A school board saves money by having a couple contractors doing repairs for a number of schools, but that's all they do. They travel between the schools fixing stuff. Otherwise, you would have to hire as many contractors as you have schools and most of the time they won't have any work to do because it's not every single day that things need fixing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) Do the toilets not get cleaned that day? Because it's not part of the janitors job to be doing that work. So (s)he either does the work that's assigned to him or he skips his own work to do side jobs. I'm sure the janitor can find the time, but I'm just saying its not the janitor's job. Why should the janitor do it? Why should the teacher take time out of their day to do it? Why should the principal or anyone else? There is someone whose job it is to do these repairs. Everyone has a role to play and every second you spend performing someone else's role, you're either not performing your role or not getting paid to perform the additional role. If you're not getting paid for it, then the school board will have an inaccurate picture of the true cost of running their operations. If you can't spare 5 minutes of your day to do a simple task then there's a problem. BTW in the story in the OP it's said that teachers want to be able to do these simple jobs because as wyly points out hiring a contractor will get you bill a minimum two hours of work for something that takes 5 minutes. But they can't because they'll get grieved. This is public money in a School Board that is in a very bad financial situation. I think common sense should be taken into consideration for simple jobs like this. For example, hanging a picture. The idea that you'd need to hire a contractor for that is mind-boggling to most sensible people. But even if you do have to hire a contractor the principal should have the discretion to call a contractor that charges a reasonable rate and not a Board appointed Union that can charge whatever they want because they have a monopoly on servicing the schools in Toronto. Edited December 10, 2012 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch 27 Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Simple solution. FOrce the TDSB to open up the bidding process to NON-UNION contractors! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 I'm going to stop replying after this because it seems wyly has gone through this all and I'll just be flooding the thread, but having a handyman on site won't save money. A school board saves money by having a couple contractors doing repairs for a number of schools, but that's all they do. They travel between the schools fixing stuff. Otherwise, you would have to hire as many contractors as you have schools and most of the time they won't have any work to do because it's not every single day that things need fixing. yes someone understands...a pencil sharpener one month, a couple smoke detectors the next month, maybe shelf put up the month after, and for that people want a full time handyman at the school...add up the costs of infrequent service calls compare that to a full time repairman on site... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch 27 Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 yes someone understands...a pencil sharpener one month, a couple smoke detectors the next month, maybe shelf put up the month after, and for that people want a full time handyman at the school...add up the costs of infrequent service calls compare that to a full time repairman on site... Um Yea,,,, Look at the petty list below.... $8,531.. For work one guy could have done in 2 weeks... Wyly? You are simply a slave to the Unions... LOOK at the JOB DETAILS!! Who are you kidding???? You couldnt do that in 2 weeks????? REALLY????? Shows your work ethic if not! Hell, I could have banged of 3/4th of the list in a DAY!!!!!!!!! "And on the 2nd day, the Unionist slept".... SImply sickening that you could back up such waste..... SICKENING!!! 8.5K/Month???? This is work that a Home-Depot greeter could have knocked off!!! Give your head a shake... LOOK AT THE LIST!! One guy would STILL have WEEKS of twittling thumbs!!! Even the worst handy-man!!!!!!! SIMPLY PATHETIC! 147.88 to cut one key at the board’s “East Education office.” • $167 for a job at R.H. McGregor Elementary School described as “four guys needed to move a bench.” • $118 to install a pencil sharpener at Vaughan Road Academy (this is cheaper than the $143 sharpener installation the Star found earlier at another school). • $190 to replace a broken toilet seat in the staff washroom at Kensington Community School. That price included the seat, which was $126. • $312 to replace two malfunctioning smoke detectors at Highfield Junior School, plus $58 for new detectors. The data indicates this important work took seven days from when job was requested to completed. • $810 to “remove unpleasant words on (washroom) stall” at Elkhorn Public School. • $1,614 (representing 49 hours for a painter) to paint a vice-principal’s office at the Etobicoke School of the Arts. Materials were $82, likely two cans of paint. • $2,441 to install a whiteboard on the wall at Rouge Valley Public School, plus the $127 cost of the board. • $2,670 to replace “burned-out bulbs in lunchroom” at H.J. Alexander Community School. That job took 70 hours, and the bulbs were an additional $337. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 If you can't spare 5 minutes of your day to do a simple task then there's a problem. BTW in the story in the OP it's said that teachers want to be able to do these simple jobs because as wyly points out hiring a contractor will get you bill a minimum two hours of work for something that takes 5 minutes. But they can't because they'll get grieved. This is public money in a School Board that is in a very bad financial situation. I think common sense should be taken into consideration for simple jobs like this. For example, hanging a picture. The idea that you'd need to hire a contractor for that is mind-boggling to most sensible people. But even if you do have to hire a contractor the principal should have the discretion to call a contractor that charges a reasonable rate and not a Board appointed Union that can charge whatever they want because they have a monopoly on servicing the schools in Toronto. hanging a picture is no big deal?...how much do you think it would cost to tear open a wall and rerun electrical wires when a nail or screw pierces an electrical wire, does your teacher or janitor just happen to have an electrical sensor in their back pocket?...or when that nail/screw used for hanging picture punctures a water line or drain who pays for the resulting water damage?...before you say that never happens I can assure you it does and often, and I've had the pleasure of repairing and charging for both...that little screw or nail for a picture can result in thousands of dollars of damage, when a janitor or teacher does it the school pays for it, when a contractor makes the error they're responsible for the repairs...so when mrs wyly asked me to hang a shelf in her office I turned her down and told her to call contractor in charge, I'm not risking putting a screw into a wall of a public building that could potentially disrupt or even shut down a multi-multi-million dollar medical facility... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch 27 Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 hanging a picture is no big deal?...how much do you think it would cost to tear open a wall and rerun electrical wires when a nail or screw pierces an electrical wire, does your teacher or janitor just happen to have an electrical sensor in their back pocket?...or when that nail/screw used for hanging picture punctures a water line or drain who pays for the resulting water damage?...before you say that never happens I can assure you it does and often, and I've had the pleasure of repairing and charging for both...that little screw or nail for a picture can result in thousands of dollars of damage, when a janitor or teacher does it the school pays for it, when a contractor makes the error they're responsible for the repairs... so when mrs wyly asked me to hang a shelf in her office I turned her down and told her to call contractor in charge, I'm not risking putting a screw into a wall of a public building that could potentially disrupt or even shut down a multi-multi-million dollar medical facility... OMG LOL. I have heard it all now...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) So the alternative then would be no pictures allowed in the school since in order to have them hung we'd have to pay a contractor a large sum of money to do that simple task. What if you used one of these things? http://www.artbycedar.com/images/hangingart5.jpg Shouldn't electricians run wires along studs so you don't effect the wiring by the simple task of hanging a picture? Edited December 10, 2012 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) It's not the janitor's job. That's not what (s)he's being paid to do. You don't get an electrician to install plumbing in your house. Even if (s)he's capable. ya, or the time I was called to find the source of wet basement, a wannabe diy electrician drilled a hole in a waste drain to run a wire through it every time the owner flushed the toilet it ran out into the basement...call the right people for the job...I get so much work from DIYs who think they can do everything..."do you know how much an electrician/plumber charges? I'll do it myself" Edited December 10, 2012 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch 27 Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 ya, or the time I was called to find the source of wet basement, a wannabe diy electrician drilled a hole in a waste drain to run a wire through it every time the owner flushed the toilet it ran out into the basement...call the right people for the job... I get so much work from DIYs who think they can do everything..."do you know how much an electrician/plumber charges? I'll do it myself" LOL! Get a General labourer!!!!!!! LOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No! Lets insist on a Picture-hanger technician!!!!!! Im sending this string to all my Buddies at Ellis-Don... The guys building the Hospital in Oakville!! They are gonna bust a gut!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletch 27 Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 ya, or the time I was called to find the source of wet basement, a wannabe diy electrician drilled a hole in a waste drain to run a wire through it every time the owner flushed the toilet it ran out into the basement...call the right people for the job... I get so much work from DIYs who think they can do everything..."do you know how much an electrician/plumber charges? I'll do it myself" "I'll do it myself"??? Didnt you just tell Mrs.Whyly to out-source it!?!?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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