Most Israeli Jews would support apartheid regime in Israel

[GostHacked]

The same thing that created any other country. The physical presence of a group of people that wanted to exist as a sovereign nation, and their ability to assert this in the face of those who would deny them that right.

However the people that created Israel were not originally from the area of the British Palestinian Mandate.

[Bonam]

However the people that created Israel were not originally from the area of the British Palestinian Mandate.

Neither were the people that created Canada and the US originally from the area of North America. Your point?

[GostHacked]

Neither were the people that created Canada and the US originally from the area of North America. Your point?

If we continue to use that argument nothing gets solved. I guess I can only say, different times different situations. People did not come to North America based on a right of return or historical claims to said land. The modern construct of international law and recognized borders in a sense prevents that from happening.

[bleeding heart]

I'm not sure how Canadian/ American, British/French catastrophic treatment of Aboriginals can somehow be seen as a defense of Israel, anyway...unless we are defending our own founding on such terms. Which not too many people are doing, nowadays.

[Bonam]

If we continue to use that argument nothing gets solved.

Solutions should be based on the realities of today. Israeli Jews are there and aren't going anywhere.

I guess I can only say, different times different situations. People did not come to North America based on a right of return or historical claims to said land.

You're right, they didn't even have that. Instead, they came because they wanted to and claimed what land they wanted, with no particular justification other than that they could. Wanna bet that argument wouldn't persuade too many people in the US if natives started shooting rockets from their reserves at nearby American towns?

The modern construct of international law and recognized borders in a sense prevents that from happening.

International law only "prevents" things from happening if someone enforces it. How did international law protect Israel when, immediately after being proclaimed an independent state (in accord with international law) it was invaded from every direction by Arab hordes? Oh, that's right, it didn't. Israeli Jews defended themselves and prevented the Arabs from committing another genocide just 3 years after the last one in Europe. Every day, international law is violated in many areas around the globe, and no one does anything to stop it. In Syria, more civilians have been killed in the last few months than in the entire history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. And yet what does "international law" do? Nothing.

[bush_cheney2004]

...You're right, they didn't even have that. Instead, they came because they wanted to and claimed what land they wanted, with no particular justification other than that they could. Wanna bet that argument wouldn't persuade too many people in the US if natives started shooting rockets from their reserves at nearby American towns?

How refreshing to read a position that reflects the geo-political reality of the past and present. But don't be surprised if you are accused of going off topic or conflating two different issues, despite the unmistakeable parallels to the past and current experience(s) of natives in the Americas. So called International Law means nothing without enforcement, and that would require the very same power that is accused of violating same.

Israel exists as a Jewish state because of actions by Israelis, not the UN or so called International Law.

[Guest American Woman]

Seems to me any similar situation that's brought up is dismissed as 'from a different time' or 'not right, either'* - although nothing is expected to be done about it. Only Israel is expected to 'make things right.'

[bush_cheney2004]

Agreed, as we can still find other modern conflicts over land and the displacement of people in other places, but for some odd reason the focus remains on Israel and the "Jewish State".

[DogOnPorch]

Agreed, as we can still find other modern conflicts over land and the displacement of people in other places, but for some odd reason the focus remains on Israel and the "Jewish State".

Yup...thus my ranting on and on and on (if you ask the other guys) about South Viet-Nam. Where is it today and when can we expect it back?

[bush_cheney2004]

Yup...thus my ranting on and on and on (if you ask the other guys) about South Viet-Nam. Where is it today and when can we expect it back?

I'm sorry, but that response is not recognized. Please press "1" to criticize Israel, press "2" to praise Palestinians, or press "3" to condemn U.S. foreign aid to the Zionists.

[DogOnPorch]

I'm sorry, but that response is not recognized. Please press "1" to criticize Israel, press "2" to praise Palestinians, or press "3" to condemn U.S. foreign aid to the Zionists.

Oh, I've noticed. Posters here and elsewhere on der weeb have also tried to explain to me how Viet-nam was one big happy country before the French...not the mish-mash of kingdoms it actually was. Therefore, the Communists were merely reuniting what once was broken. Such nice fellows...

[WIP]

Seems to me any similar situation that's brought up is dismissed as 'from a different time' or 'not right, either'* - although nothing is expected to be done about it. Only Israel is expected to 'make things right.'

This isn't my high priority issue, but it seems to me that when Israel decided to become a permanent occupier of the West Bank and turn Gaza into a giant prison camp, that they were the ones who took on the responsibility to "make things right." Earlier this year we learned that the Gaza Strip will completely exhaust their underground water supplies by the year 2020.....that's only 7 years away! What do the Israelis intend to do with Gaza? Keep them boxed in until everyone's dead. Such are the costs of empire! Maybe Israel is now trapped in a prison of their own making: spending money they don't have on constantly growing military budgets to maintain the empire....that sounds familiar, come to think of it!

[bush_cheney2004]

This isn't my high priority issue, but it seems to me that when Israel decided to become a permanent occupier of the West Bank and turn Gaza into a giant prison camp, that they were the ones who took on the responsibility to "make things right...."

Israel did make things right...right for Israel. It is the same nation state actions seen in Canada, United States, and many other nations.

[Mr.Canada]

Israel has nothing to make right. It exists, it will always exist and the Arabs and their supporters around the world need to get used to that. Too bad if they don't like it. Your antisemitism will not work, your racism will not work. Israel has every right to defend itself.

[dre]

Seems to me any similar situation that's brought up is dismissed as 'from a different time' or 'not right, either'

We wont know if similar situations are dismissed or not, until somebody comes up with one.

[Rue]

Wip you stated:

"it seems to me that when Israel decided to become a permanent occupier of the West Bank and turn Gaza into a giant prison camp,"

Israel entered the West Bank with the express intent of preventing terrorist attacks into Israel. It originally sent setters in to serve as early warning posts for incoming movement of terrorists and it gave tax incentives for Israelis to move to the West Bank to live as early warning sentries.

Modern surveillance technology makes this need outmoded. The majority of Israelis when polled do not want occupation in West Bank just the guarantee there will be no terrorist attacks from it against Israel.

I do believe however the current Prime Minister is committed to permanent settlers remaining on the West Bank because he believes the West Bank was never part of any nation and until it is decided what to do with it he wants a strategic advantage for securing safe borders.

The proximity or closeness of the West Bank to Jerusalem makes that security concern a reality as has part wars. I believe simply rendering it a matter of wanting to occupy is misleading. Do you really think if Palestinians were peaceful and living peacefuly next to Israel it would have had any interest in the West Bank. Amazing how you skip that part of the equation and have Israel operating in a vacum, i.e., interested in the West Bank for no reason other than it wants it.

You also mistated the creation of Gaza as being an Israel invention. It was in fact created by Gamel Abnel Nasser to imprison Palestinian Muslims from entering Egypt. Nasser detested Palestinians and saw them as a pawn to be used to fight what he considered his main enemy Israel. Nasser was a product of a country that glorified Hitler and Nazism and he and his Vice President Anwar Sadat had Hitler mustaches and set up their armies and political police based on the Gestapo and SS. To this day they wear the jodphurs, boots, goose step and wear the Nazi helmet.

Nasser ridiculed Palestinians and egged them on urging them to attack Israel. He sent Egyptian agents into the Gaza arming young Palestinians with weapons and organizing what he called the Fedayeen and sent them on suicide missions into Israel.

You can revise history all you want but Israel did not invent Gaza nor did it invent the terrorists who moved to the West Bank and Gaza to use it and Palestinians to attack Israel.

You stated:

"Earlier this year we learned that the Gaza Strip will completely exhaust their underground water supplies by the year 2020.....that's only 7 years away! What do the Israelis intend to do with Gaza? Keep them boxed in until everyone's dead. "

First off the above is wrong.Egypt, Gaza, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan and the West Bank have neer had sufficient water supplies for their existing populations. The fact they may become exhausted is immaterial. They are already insufficient and were insufficient long before Nasser imprisoned Palestinians on the Gaza Strip. Nasser was not concerned about water his only concern was preventing their migration to Egypt. Again your knowledge of Middle East history and water seem selective.

Water has been the basis of virtually every war ever fought in the Middle East whether it has been between Muslims or between today's Arab nations and Israel. It s a geographic limitation at the pith and substance of all problems in the Middle East and always has been.

Your question is also selective yet again. You suggest Gaza is blocked by Israel and ask when Israel will stop the blockade.Why? You know full well Hamas is in a state of declared war against Israel? Shouldn't you be asking Hamas? How is it you look to Israel and ignore Hamas?How many more times do we read on this forum selective arm chair genius revisionists like you who pretend Israel operates in an arbitrary vacum? Israel places a blockade because Hamas is at war with it. When Hamas did not have a declared war and was against terror against Israel, Israel funded charities affliated with it indirectly and built schools, roads, bridges, hospitals,mosques, greenhouses. Where were you when Hamas turned to terror and blew this all up? Where were you when they openly killed Palestinians who dared work with Israelis? Where were you when they rubber necklaced them and blew up themosques, roads, schools? Hmmm? Where were you?How is it you now ask Israel? Was it Israel that embraced a declared state of war?

Interesting how your selectivity works with that blockade. Now to answer your question how about you ask Hamas. Israel has already demonstrated its good faith when its neighbour chooses to live peacefully side by side it. What has Hamas done? Hmm? As soon as Israel withdrew from Gaza within minutes the agents of Hamas began launching missiles into Israel. Well? How is it you skip over that fact?

Where were you when Hamas stated it would only settle for a temporary cease fire to rearm itself until it could rid Israel of its Jews? Where were you?

You stated;

"Maybe Israel is now trapped in a prison of their own making...."

There is no doubt Israel has and remains responsible for some of its failed foreign and economic policies. The fact remains however that the Arab world is in fact trapped in a prison of their own making-by playing this futile game of denial and maintaining after 60 years Jews will be thrown out and never own land in the Middle East it remains trapped and it of course traps Israel. Israel has no choice but to spend on security as it finds itself surrounded by Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia all full of individuals who want Israel wiped out. Your point? Once again you suggest Israel has acted in a vacum and trapped itself? You are so oblivious you can not see the people around it who have also trapped themselves?

You think Hamas and Fatah Hawks and the Hezbollah and Muslim extremist clergy do not trap their citizens?Where have you been while Muslims try escape their corupt and failing regimes...oh I know the only trapped country is Israel because it has the audacity to want to exist right?

You stated that Israel...

" spending money they don't have on constantly growing military budgets to maintain thempire....that sounds familiar, come to think of it!"

It should, it describes virtually all countries in the world especially the Muslim nations and yet you seem to only want to single Israel out for doing so.

Why is that? What the hell do you think the PLO did with the billions of dollars of aid sent to help Palestinians? What the hell do you think Hamas does with any aid sent to help Palestinians in the Gaza?

You really need to look around and stop being selective as to what you see.

The quaqmire known as the Middle East does not operate in an Israeli vacum and never has. There is cause and effect phenomena from a complex matrix of ever evolving alliances between not just nations but ethnic groups of which Israeli Jews are but one of hundreds of such groups.