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Principals Support No Zeros


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Why a new thread? A new article can be posted in the previous thread.

I understand what you are saying, that it is a behavioural issue, and it doesn't actually reflect the student's knowledge of the topic. I've marked essays and assignments that demonstrated a thorough understanding of the content, but were handed in so late that the late mark deductions caused the student to fail. There are clear guidelines for requesting an extension, but it is up to the student to initiate the process. Is that fair? I believe it is. Time management and organization are life skills, and knowledge has to be applied in a timely manner for it to be effective. A holistic approach to education values knowledge, but also values behaviour, attitudes, and communication.

Edited by Melanie_
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I understand the general goal of a "no zeroes" policy. I agree that a student not handing in a few assignments or missing tests can be a behavioral issue, and often there can be problems at home that can affect a student's performance.

I propose this "no zero" policy instead: if an assignment/test isn't completed, the student receives a mark of 50% (essentially a failing grade, but still a lot better than a zero) OR the student receives a mark that is 10% lower than the lowest mark among the students in the class who actually completed the assignment/test, whichever mark is lower.

This way the student is punished for a non-completion, but receives a grade that makes catching up with classmates not as difficult as a zero.

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Moonlight Graham, there is no need for such arbitrary grade policies. The situation really is very simple. State up front at the start of any course that if a student is unable to complete an assignment on time for a valid reason, they should speak in advance (if possible) with the instructor, and a reasonable accommodation will be worked out. For example, when I TA'd courses in university, students often had valid reasons for not being able to complete or submit an assignment on time. In these cases, it was almost always possible for them to submit it later, or to complete an alternative assignment instead, and to receive full credit for the work. We did everything possible to give students the opportunity to do the work and demonstrate their ability.

Now, there were of course students who simply chose not to do assignments without any reason, or chose not to speak with myself or the professor about their failure to submit assignments. And in that case they most certainly got big fat zeros, and fully deserved them. In such cases, there is absolutely no reason to give any grade besides a zero.

Sad thing is, just having TA'd for 2 years as a grad student, I've probably done more teaching than our fellow troll "socialist" will do in his lifetime.

Edited by Bonam
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you just don't get it, do you?

It could have been continued in any one of the existing threads. Its not UNRELATED to the position taken by the fired teacher. Its not a NEW topic.

You might not get it either.

You happen to be threading the needle on forum ettiquette.

Its about being respectful to others and to MLW.

We now have 3 threads on this topic. It happens, however it normally happens when someone else starts a topic on a similar subject unknowingly.

Its no harm done.

Its simply something to consider when posting on MLW.

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Why a new thread? A new article can be posted in the previous thread.

I understand what you are saying, that it is a behavioural issue, and it doesn't actually reflect the student's knowledge of the topic. I've marked essays and assignments that demonstrated a thorough understanding of the content, but were handed in so late that the late mark deductions caused the student to fail. There are clear guidelines for requesting an extension, but it is up to the student to initiate the process. Is that fair? I believe it is. Time management and organization are life skills, and knowledge has to be applied in a timely manner for it to be effective. A holistic approach to education values knowledge, but also values behaviour, attitudes, and communication.

You should be fired for that. A learner demonstrates understand and you take away marks because it wasn't handed in when you wanted. That maybe worked in the stone age but not in today's education.

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It could have been continued in any one of the existing threads. Its not UNRELATED to the position taken by the fired teacher. Its not a NEW topic.

You might not get it either.

You happen to be threading the needle on forum ettiquette.

Its about being respectful to others and to MLW.

We now have 3 threads on this topic. It happens, however it normally happens when someone else starts a topic on a similar subject unknowingly.

Its no harm done.

Its simply something to consider when posting on MLW.

Yeah, Ok. I didn't know that before. Anyways, now non educational experts, parents, want to have a say. they do not understand educational practices.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2012/09/25/edm-zero-teacher-meeting.html

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There are no repercussions. It's happening and the experts don't care that people like you don't like the policy. What do you know about public education.

Wait till you start teaching :lol:

I know of way to many teachers totally frustrated by this policy.

Students drift by the classroom, wanders in with iphone, read iphone, start laughing with others on iphone, test assignment ignored, gets up walks out of class, heads over to sidewide beside school. Lights cigarette.

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Yeah, Ok. I didn't know that before. Anyways, now non educational experts, parents, want to have a say. they do not understand educational practices.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2012/09/25/edm-zero-teacher-meeting.html

1) They are the Parent, its their Children and not only do they want a Say, it gives them the opportunity to listen. Thats why its called a meeting and not a lynching.

2) Yes, some parents are non educational experts.

3) Some are involved in education.

"That is the best avenue for parents to be involved," said Doug Senuik, a retired teacher who added he's worried the school's principal has not been following rules under the School Act when it comes to giving parents notice about such meetings.

It sends a message to me that he does not want the parents to be informed, he does not want a school council to exist," said Senuik, a former member of the Ross Sheppard faculty who has launched a formal complaint with the school board.

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Wait till you start teaching :lol:

I know of way to many teachers totally frustrated by this policy.

Students drift by the classroom, wanders in with iphone, read iphone, start laughing with others on iphone, test assignment ignored, gets up walks out of class, heads over to sidewide beside school. Lights cigarette.

What you describe seems to be a societal problem. Schools can't fix the damage done. They need to accomodate. Things like facebook and twitter are now used as tools in schools. I know MANY teachers and schools that see smartphones as a valuable educational tool. You need to realize the facts. teachers are innovative and know how to engage their learners by letting them use smartphones.

Edited by socialist
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What you describe seems to be a societal problem. Schools can't fix the damage done. They need to accomodate. Things like facebook and twitter are now used as tools in schools. I know MANY teachers and schools that see smartphones as a valuable educational tool. You need to realize the facts. teachers are innovative and know how to engage their learners by letting them use smartphones.

And facebook and twitter will fade on to the next fad. Yes they are tools, like the blackberry is a tool.

And amazingly Facebook and twitter exist on my work computer.

And as an Employer , I do not expect my employees to be using Facebook and twitter during company time for their own personal use, no different then a telephone. No different then a computer that has MSWord or Maple on it, vs playing solitaire.

The same can be said for a student.

There are tools, and there are distractions.

Societal Problems are not an excuse for bad policy.

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There may well be an intelligent defense of this policy to be made.

I wish someone would make it.

You're right - and it's a failure on a few levels. One, we don't have enough subject matter experts in this field to have a good discussion on MLW. And two, the experts in the field haven't seen this as important enough to make a good effort to explain it to the public.

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So with this no-zero policy, I can pick and choose the easiest assignments and get a 90% overall average having done as little as 10% of the assigned work while at the same time someone else does 100% of the assigned work and gets a 75% average because they did not pick the easy assignments but did all of them. At the end of the day wouldn't this stupid policy promote less and less work to be handed in and less actual education to happen? Why would I do all of the assignments if in fact I am being penalized with a lower mark because I did the easy and hard assignments while someone just finished the easy assignments and chose not to do the rest while still getting a higher mark?

What happens in College/university when some kid who has received a gift of a 90% average all through high school and knows absolutely nothing and expects the same treatment as (s)he received in high school?

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Moonlight Graham, there is no need for such arbitrary grade policies. The situation really is very simple. State up front at the start of any course that if a student is unable to complete an assignment on time for a valid reason, they should speak in advance (if possible) with the instructor, and a reasonable accommodation will be worked out. For example, when I TA'd courses in university, students often had valid reasons for not being able to complete or submit an assignment on time. In these cases, it was almost always possible for them to submit it later, or to complete an alternative assignment instead, and to receive full credit for the work. We did everything possible to give students the opportunity to do the work and demonstrate their ability.

Now, there were of course students who simply chose not to do assignments without any reason, or chose not to speak with myself or the professor about their failure to submit assignments. And in that case they most certainly got big fat zeros, and fully deserved them. In such cases, there is absolutely no reason to give any grade besides a zero.

Sad thing is, just having TA'd for 2 years as a grad student, I've probably done more teaching than our fellow troll "socialist" will do in his lifetime.

Good points all around.

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What you describe seems to be a societal problem. Schools can't fix the damage done. They need to accomodate. Things like facebook and twitter are now used as tools in schools. I know MANY teachers and schools that see smartphones as a valuable educational tool. You need to realize the facts. teachers are innovative and know how to engage their learners by letting them use smartphones.

Facebook and twitter should never be considered as learning tools in school.

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Facebook and twitter should never be considered as learning tools in school.

They don't teach marketing and communications in school :rolleyes:

Facebook and Twitter are such tools.

Next you will ban the radio, the film projector, the audiotape, the televison, the video tape, the computer, the internet and while we are at it books.... :P

As all can be used as a diversionary tool.

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What happens in College/university when some kid who has received a gift of a 90% average all through high school and knows absolutely nothing and expects the same treatment as (s)he received in high school?

Such students don't normally progress to post 2ndary, but should they, I would suspect an early exit.

Just as the same attitude will shorten ones career in employment.

Let me know when Military trainig adopts a similar approach .... ;)

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Facebook and twitter should never be considered as learning tools in school.

Well, thank goodness you don't run thins. Facebook and twitter are excellent tools for engaging learners. Again you have to lose your 1960s mindset and educate yourself about 21st century learning.

http://edudemic.com/2012/04/how-students-can-use-social-media-to-actually-learn-real-world-skills/

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Sun News and an anti- public school rant. NO wonder no one watches that station. This is what I mean by ignorance of the superior public school system.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/1863112169001

The Catholic and private system are vastly superior. I'm sure that nothing is as great as the enlightened public system but what can you do.

There are some really great private schools in Canada. Some can be expensive yes but very good. We looked into it ourselves but the Catholic system where we are has been good so far. If they try to start teaching anything radical like the public system we'll be pulling our children and going private but until then all is well.

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