Government Reform

[jay74]

I thought that I would throw this topic into the pit for discussion. Should our current system of gov't in Canada be reformed? If so, what should be done? Constitutional Monarchy v Republic. First past the post v proportional representation. What about our senate? These are just a few points that have been tossed out there. Myself, being a western Canadian, I hear these converstations all the time. We need reform, we need reform and now. I know how western canada feels about this but, i would like to hear what the rest of canada thinks, without the media slant.

[Big Blue Machine]

We should keep the constuitional monarchy. We should ablosih the Senate, but that's not going to happen. The Triple E Senate is a whacky idea. It would create dealock between the two houses of parliament. Plus, the idea of PEI having the same number of senate seats with Ontario is silly. Ontario has 10 million people to PEI's sub 5 million. We should restrict Senate power. Remember when they refused to pass the free trade agreement? Then they tried to block the GST. Mulroney did what he had to do.

[ticker]

PEI and Ontario having the same number of senators may be a bit extreme but California has not fallen apart because Ohio or a smaller state has the same number of senators.

Besides Alberta does not trust the feds to make fair decisions when PET showed what he can do with power.

and to a lesser degree kyoto, mad cow, gun control...

[Michael Hardner]

I thought that I would throw this topic into the pit for discussion. Should our current system of gov't in Canada be reformed? If so, what should be done? Constitutional Monarchy v Republic. First past the post v proportional representation. What about our senate? These are just a few points that have been tossed out there. Myself, being a western Canadian, I hear these converstations all the time. We need reform, we need reform and now. I know how western canada feels about this but, i would like to hear what the rest of canada thinks, without the media slant. 

The people should be reformed. We need and want a government of good managers, yet we can't understand how these politicians keep getting elected. People need to pay more attention to the long-term and less to the scandals and gaffes.

[Big Blue Machine]

I think most people aren't educated enough about politicans and political situations.

No one please take offence.

I think for the Senate, we should still appoint, but the government needs to pass a bill, to gove the appointments to the people. These situation should be used in minority government, and it was be a vote of confidence.

[Bakunin]

I think we should form a real confederation, else the country will break up and we should force transparency in government because we can't trust them anymore with all those scandals.

As for british monarchy, its clearly an english canadian things. Its not something we have in common. Yes i find it insulting but if some people want to identify with that i don't have any objection but the government shouldn't pay for that. Else we should get a special king governor and have the right to cut his head off the french way...

For the senate, i think its useless. Wheither we elect them democratically, reorganise the way it work and what power they have or we abolish them.

[Big Blue Machine]

We should keep the Governer General, but we should pick one every five years. And we should cap his/her spending. But I'm sure they will think of a way to call these trips "Business of Canada Trips" We abolish the senate but that's impossible, when we need to put through a law, and the Senate needs to pass it, which they won't do. The Senators don't want to lose their cosy, well-paid jobs with gold plated pensions. Plus they can make more money through double dipping of incomes.

[takeanumber]

Reforms need to be moderate and progressive.

That's the only way anything ever gets done in Canada.

Here's one sensible proposal:

For Senate Reform...since each province has it's own set of seats, why not hold elections for those seats at the same time provincial governments are holding their provincial elections?

You could elect the Senators using pure PR from each province. Since PEI has 4 senators, if the Cons get 25% of the vote on the Senate ballot, the federal (or provincial) cons get to appoint 4 members.

We can quibble about how many seats each province gets, or better yet, redistribute the house of commons (which isn't bound by the consititution on seat distributions) to reflect what Brown wanted in the first place, that's right, representation by population.

Does it sound like a moderate, sensible proposal?

We don' t have to tinker with the Constitution (the PM, just as he doesn't use reservation anymore, could simply agree to appoint, by way of tradition, the 'recommendation' of the people of a given province. It could be a new tradition, and a well honoured one that no PM would dare invoke, much the same as Laurent refused to use dissallowance after McDonald thoroughly abused it. That sorta thing.)

Alberta would get a baby step. There'd be a good check on Federal power in the commons. We'd have some measure of PR that wouldn't result in an Italian parliament.

There's usually a provincial election every year, so the balance of the Senate could keep any federal party on its toes. Responsible government is held intact, and best of all, the government in the commons doesn't collapse all the time.

Oh well. I know that it'll never happen, but I think it's pragmatic, moderate and progressive.

[August1991]

the PM, just as he doesn't use reservation anymore, could simply agree to appoint, by way of tradition, the 'recommendation' of the people of a given province. It could be a new tradition, and a well honoured one that no PM would dare invoke

This is a good do-able suggestion. Harper said that he would start it. I believe that up until 1920, US senators were selected by the State legislatures and for all I know, they may formally still be done that way.

But the parliamentary tradition, not the Civil Code tradition, is precisely this kind of change where precedents are set and then strange practices are maintained by tradition only.

France has had five constitutions since the revolution. The UK's constitution constantly evolves.

In Quebec, people would likely vote rouge in federal elections and bleu to the Senate. I think this would be well accepted by federalists, and fence-sitters. Even the BQ would prefer popular Senators rather than Liberal hacks.

Incidentally, there have been suggestions that certain double majorities be required in the Senate for example, on language questions. This would mean that a majority of Quebec Senators would also vote in favour.

There will always be people who desire an independant Quebec state. But if English Canada (ROC) were to offer some concrete measures, ones controlled by Quebecers, guaranteeing the usage of French in North America, I believe that ordinary Quebecers would ignore the separatist sirens/dream. The Senate might offer one way to do this.

As for british monarchy, its clearly an english canadian things.

I know that some Englsih Canadians hold to this tradition. But many don't and it really is anachronism. We should do away with the Queen and her face on our money. I really think that Canadians will only grow up when we call ourselves the Federal Republic of Canada.

I'll never forget travelling with a delegation to southern Ontario. We arrived in Brockville during something called "Loyalist Days". The Quebecers couldn't stop laughing.

[caesar]

We should restrict Senate power. Remember when they refused to pass the free trade agreement? Then they tried to block the GST

Too bad they didn't succeed.

[Bakunin]

I know that some Englsih Canadians hold to this tradition. But many don't and it really is anachronism. We should do away with the Queen and her face on our money. I really think that Canadians will only grow up when we call ourselves the Federal Republic of Canada.

I agree that its only a % of people that want to keep monarchism as a tradition, but its just one small sample of the way canada work. They call the country a bicultural country but they only care about there culture. I doubt we will ever get canadian money with a fleur de lys on it.

I'll never forget travelling with a delegation to southern Ontario. We arrived in Brockville during something called "Loyalist Days". The Quebecers couldn't stop laughing.

i would like to see this I imagine them parading in quebec the june 24th.... with canadian flag and poster of the royal family it would be has much satifiying has when they putted jean charest speech the 24th...

[jay74]

This is just my opinion but, i believe many of our current political problems are deeply rooted in us having the british monarcy as our head of state. Not only is it out dated but it does not reflect the diversity of our country. Maybe it worked 100 years ago but no longer. Certainly dropping the Queen and all her court jesters would be a step in the right direction in having Quebec feel a little more a part of Canada. I don't know maybe Bakunin can answer that.

As for the senate, we must do one of two things. Either drop it all together or use the institiution in a productive manner. As for now, it is a boneyard where polititians and there friends go to die. It's ridiculous. They really are not accountable to anyone.

[Big Blue Machine]

We should keep the British Monarchy, Rule Britannia

[Guest eureka]

The most successful democracies are all constitutional monarchies in a Parliamentary system, so, unless someone can devise a better system then I suggest that we should not be seduced by the power lust of local politicians.

Bakunin! There would be no such thing as a French speaking Canadian now if it were not for the monarchical system. If you are so concerned about your French heritage then express your gratitude for your saviour. The churlish behaviour of Francophone Quebeckers towards the Monarchy and the heritage of both cultures shows only ignorance of self and bad manners towards the centre of another culture (if you insist on thinking it is not a large part of yours).

[Big Blue Machine]

Casear, the people voted for the GST in 1988. It was in the free trade package that won a big majority. So don't blame the senators, blame the people who voted for the GST.

[takeanumber]

The problem isn't with the monarchy.

The crown hasn't had any real power since 1837.

The problem is the responsiveness of parliament, which is in fact rooted in the public-party interface, and the party-leader interface.

The interfaces need to be fixed.

[maplesyrup]

Does anyone really believe that the scandals in Quebec all belong to the Liberal party. Jeez, please give us all a break. Has anyone ever heard of Duplessis? A true Quebecois nationalist and as crooked a politician as you will ever find

[Bakunin]

The most successful democracies are all constitutional monarchies in a Parliamentary system, so, unless someone can devise a better system then I suggest that we should not be seduced by the power lust of local politicians.

i don't agree, in the most succesfull democracies, the system is only a factor among others. If we take the republic system, we can see a major difference between the dominican, or congo republic and the american or french republic... It depend on the kind of government, the society tolerance for corruption and etc...

this doesnt mean it doesnt play a role but i don'T thing the fact of monarchy nostalgy is helping a parliament system being more democrate. In fact Monarchy is in no way democratic.

Bakunin! There would be no such thing as a French speaking Canadian now if it were not for the monarchical system. If you are so concerned about your French heritage then express your gratitude for your saviour. The churlish behaviour of Francophone Quebeckers towards the Monarchy and the heritage of both cultures shows only ignorance of self and bad manners towards the centre of another culture (if you insist on thinking it is not a large part of yours).

On that i absolutly disagree with you. I am not going to feel infrerior to any society, race or nation. I live as a free man and if someone want to force me into something i have the right to fight back. I wont kiss english feet for their failure of our assimilation just like you dont kiss french feet because they didn't assimilate england or english territory when they conquered them. I am born a free man and im a democrate and i beleive in equality of human being.

Certainly dropping the Queen and all her court jesters would be a step in the right direction in having Quebec feel a little more a part of Canada. I don't know maybe Bakunin can answer that.

British monarchy is part of the english history, In french its a part of our history that is quite sad. Its more like an insult than a symbole. Its certainly not helping quebecers to be part of the canadian culture. Its just like if the french of france ad to have hitler's symbole on their money... or the iraq people having a bush face on their money. Its the kind of thing where we quebecers would like the rest of canada and quebec be 2 system, where we can interact and deal with each other case by case. More like an association than 1 centralised base because one base mean making compromise all the time, it cost money, time and it frustrate evryone.

[Guest eureka]

Bakunin, I think you are an unwitting xenophobe. You appear to have been conditioned by an education system that still teaches revenge for imagined slights.

I do not consider America a democracy, either, for reasons that I have probably made clear in these discussions. As for France: it was the French statesman, Jacques Servan Schreiber, who said, "it is the merit of Great Britain to be the world's only true democracy." He thought that of a monarchy.

[Bakunin]

Bakunin, I think you are an unwitting xenophobe.

This is ridiculous, i never wrote anything bad about the roc while some people on this forum constantly talk about quebecers in bad. The only thing im always telling is that a country with 2 culture and 1 system can't work in a democracy except by making lots of compromise that frustrate evryone so it would be easyer to make a more flexible system.

You appear to have been conditioned by an education system

Yes,i know you told that to me the first time i posted, and i remember because it was so much funny... You remember the text i copy-paste from microsoft encarta, the english version problably made in usa, you told me it was nationalist propaganda.... Sincerly i can feel that you have prejudice against quebec. i don't think your xenophobe but you have prejudice and it affect your capacity to analyse a situation rationnaly.

that still teaches revenge for imagined slights.

Revenge ? your the one complaining because i don't kiss roc feet because they failed to assimilate us... I never talk about revenge, actually when i post something its often by thinking what would be the best for roc and quebec, like when i talk about billingualism outside francophone region. I never talked about punishing canada while some people on this forum talk about punishing quebec for its nationalism all the time. They talk about partitioning quebec, banning quebec nationalist party, using army, isolate it econnomically etc... The funiest thing it that often those people are strong canadian nationalist... they talk about nationalism in bad while they are actually more nationalist than me...

If you want to criticize me on something, please write proof because right now, its just not convincing.

[jay74]

I am sorry Bakunin but If Quebec were to separate it would not be two systems working together as one. If that is what you mean. Canada would be one country, Quebec another and we would determine our destines on our own. Of course there would be cooperation between the two of us, as is the case with most countries. But don't expect any hand outs.

[Bakunin]

I do not consider America a democracy, either, for reasons that I have probably made clear in these discussions.

if north america is not a democracy then their is no democracy on earth...

As for France: it was the French statesman, Jacques Servan Schreiber, who said, "it is the merit of Great Britain to be the world's only true democracy." He thought that of a monarchy.

I disagree with him, i dont think great britain is the only democracy in the world.

I consider great britain parliementary system a democracy but i totally disagree that monarchy is a democratic. Acually, for me its just a religious word for a dictatorship. Monarchy in canada is symbolic even if monarchy exist, it does not rule the country, so its a parliamentary system that we have.

but here is some definition from the dictionnary wich explain it well:

Democracy:

Definition: [n] the doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group

[n] the political orientation of those who favor government by the people or by their elected representatives

[n] a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them

Dictatorship:

Definition: [n] a form of government in which the ruler is an absolute dictator (not restricted by a constitution or laws or opposition etc.)

Monarchy:

Definition: [n] an autocracy governed by a monarch who usually inherits the authority

Republic:

Definition: [n] a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them

[n] a form of government whose head of state is not a monarch; "the head of state in a republic is usually a president"

Parliamentary:

Definition: [adj] having the supreme legislative power resting with a body of cabinet ministers chosen from and responsible to the legislature or parliament; "parliamentary government"

[adj] in accord with rules and customs of a legislative or deliberative assembly; "parliamentary law"

[adj] relating to or having the nature of a parliament; "parliamentary reform"; "a parliamentary body"

[Bakunin]

I am sorry Bakunin but If Quebec were to separate it would not be two systems working together as one. If that is what you mean. Canada would be one country, Quebec another and we would determine our destines on our own. Of course there would be cooperation between the two of us, as is the case with most countries. But don't expect any hand outs.

I agree with you jay74 that quebec separation is not 2 system working together, thats why i think canada should improve its system to fit the reality because if its not done , then the only solution i see is quebec separation and i don't think quebec separation is the best solution for quebec and for canada.

Im sorry if i didn't make myself enough clear :/

ill rewrite this part of my text:

The only thing im always telling is that a country with 2 culture and 1 system can't work in a democracy except by making lots of compromise that frustrate evryone so it would be easyer to make a more flexible system.

The only thing im always telling is that a country with 2 culture and 1 system for the 2 can't work in a democracy except by making lots of compromise that frustrate evryone so it would be easyer to make a more flexible system.

a sample ? someone talk about sesonal worker on this forum. Quebecer want to change the way it work, so the quebec government should be able to make its own seasonal worker program and don't participate in the federal sesonal program. This way evryone is happy. Alberta don't want to participate in gun registry ? then they should be allowed to decide not to participate in this federal program.

So this would be 2 system working together.

[jay74]

Don't get me wrong Bakunin I agree with you 100%. I agree with most of your posts. I think Alberta (me being an Albertan) and Quebec have a lot in common once you get past the language issue. I to would like to see Canada work out it's problems and stay together but, if the people of Quebec want to leave and form their own nation, let them.

[Bakunin]

Don't get me wrong Bakunin I agree with you 100%.

don't worry i don't get you wrong

I to would like to see Canada work out it's problems and stay together but, if the people of Quebec want to leave and form their own nation, let them.

I think quebec already form its own nation , if your talking about forming its own country then, i would let them, i would work with them but im aslo considering to possibility to improve canada. I think there is a less painfull way to work the issue than separating. But i agree that the way i see thing is unlikly to happend, human being are often not enough smart to deal with such an emotional issue. Just like adult often can't deal separation of their couple.