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US Ambassador to Libya killed in attacks


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so a minority of muslims react violently and you assume they're all violent and unhinged?...I've already posted there are violent christians in canada and the US that are same do you make that same assumption of all christians?...

This sort of argument is intellectually bankrupt. There simply is not the same degree of fanaticism in the West. You'd be hard pressed to find more than the occasional psychotic who gets violent over religious reasons here.

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My humble opinion on all this...

I think the whole blame-shifting is a non-issue. The rioters are the criminals, it's ridiculous to argue otherwise.

The movie-maker is a racist and a coward but he's not a murderer. He put his 'controversial' movie out and ducked while others got hurt.

It's not like the Muslim reaction was unforeseable after what happened with the Muhammed cartoons.

The coward used a fake name, went into hiding and let others die for his beliefs.

That's what I don't like about him, but to call him guilty of what others do... no, I don't agree.

Not much is known about him but I will say that the opening to the film clip posted earlier is revealing. It shows a muslim mob burning a Christian home and killing a Christian woman while the authorities stand by and do nothing, then blame the Christians. Gee, do you think this might be inspired by the personal life experience of this individual, who is an Egyptian Coptic Christian? After all, this is a persecuted group which has, especially recently, been attacked by murderously violent Muslim mobs. So he makes a clumsy, amateurish movie, perhaps out of rage, which states HIS VIEWS, which is that Islam is a murderous religion. Why should he be condemned for that? It's not like he's just some guy who wanted to cause trouble. I think it's possible, even likely, that he really believes in what his video says, that he despises Muslims for a fairly good and personal reason.

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So the west has not been poking it's nose into these other countries in order to undermine those regimes which were propped up by the west for the most part to begin with? The west funds the rebels/terrorists to tear down these regimes which eventually come back to attack western embassies in those countries?

No to all of that. All the West has ever done over there is to try and ensure things are kept peaceful so the oil continues to flow. And realistically, what more or what else would you expect them to do? I don't elect my government to spend its time looking out for the welfare of Saudis or Egyptians or their society or their economy. Nor are they equipped to do so. So we deal with the governments that are in place, and we try to establish reasonable relations with them. Now when the opposition consists of crazed Islamists then yeah, for our own sake we're probably going to send this friendly government arms and help it stave off the crazed Islamists. Does that not make sense?

In the case of the Arab spring it isn't at all clear that much of the opposition was coming from the Islamists. It seemed to be a genuinely public uprising. Given the preference of Western nations for democracy, for rule by the people, so to speak, it's not surprising that they could not find it in their hearts to oppose such movements. That's especially so when the movements were attacking government which were anti-western, such as Libyas.

Dance all you want, and you are free to dance in the bear's home as well. Just don't be surprised that they enforce the signed rule of 'no dancing' which can result in you getting a bloody nose.

The bear is far from here, and again, realistically, it only survives on our sufferance. If it gets too out of line we'll simply shoot it.

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Just thought I would like to point out that the people who are out there attacking embassies are at best a few thousands among the millions. That's not to say most over there might not be offended by the movies, but most aren't doing anything about it.

Most of the people in the street seem to be the rednecks of the Arab world. Now that's going aways given the Arabs themselves are basically 'rednecks', in terms of their religious devotion, their low level of literacy and lack of familiarity or understanding about how the world and the societies of the West work. The Muslim world is generally a very unsophisticated one in terms of its understanding of western concepts, including what we consider basic freedoms, such as freedom of religion, speech, expression, etc.

But the ones out there screaming outside the embassy are the rednecks of that bunch, the rednecks of the rednecks if you will; generally poor, uneducated, unsophisticated, and easily manipulated. Most seem to be under the impression the United States made the movie, and that Obama approved it, because Obama knows everything due to 'all his intelligence agencies' no movie can be made without his knowledge and approval. :rolleyes:

Perhaps a few of these protests are spontaneous, but most are organized by people in those countries who know what buttons to push and how to draw mobs. Remember that the protestors in Sudan came by bus. Who organized that? Someone in the Sudanese government, apparently, along with state controlled Mullahs giving the messages they've been told to give. Activist Mullahs and Imams in other countries would similarly have little difficulty inspiring their ignorant flock to violence.

People are blaming this ex Egyptian Copt but the real blame for much of this lies in the religious figures in the Muslim world who told the mobs to get angry, told them why they needed to get angry, and told them where to take their anger.

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Of course it is! And he is an ass for doing so.... but the violence is the sole responsibility of the perpetrators. If you are so faithful that a silly film makes you want to kill people, then you are an idiot and your faith is ridiculous. Crazy Muslim extremists can go to hell, like any religious nutbar.

Well, there. True enough. I can totally agree that some of the intended victims of murderers are assholes, so long as we can all agree that the murderers and would-be murderers are far, far worse, and by definition.

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Well, there. True enough. I can totally agree that some of the intended victims of murderers are assholes, so long as we can all agree that the murderers and would-be murderers are far, far worse, and by definition.

And who is worse, the angry Egyptian Coptic Christian who makes an anti-Muslim film in California, or the cold, calculating Egyptian/Sudanese/Tunisian/Libyan/Yemeni Mullah who downloads it, finds the most inflammatory parts, and then does his best to rile up his ignorant flock and send them out against the infidels?

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And who is worse, the angry Egyptian Coptic Christian who makes an anti-Muslim film in California, or the cold, calculating Egyptian/Sudanese/Tunisian/Libyan/Yemeni Mullah who downloads it, finds the most inflammatory parts, and then does his best to rile up his ignorant flock and send them out against the infidels?

The muzzies are nuts. Everybody knows it. people should quit pretending otherwise.

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That's the perfect example of the soft bigotry of low expectations.

Ha! Well said. "How can we expect mere brown people to be able to control themselves? They are just animals, like bears in the woods."

Liberals are bigots, but in a sneaky way. They don't really realize that they are. "looking out for the dumb coloured folk who can't look after themselves" is the liberal mindset.

Edited by jerryseinfeld1
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Ha! Well said. "How can we expect mere brown people to be able to control themselves? They are just animals, like bears in the woods."

Amazing you can say that immediately after saying "muzzies are nuts" without any cognitive dissonance whatsoever. I've always been fascinated by those who are extraordinarily self-righteous and yet lack any self-awareness.

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And who is worse, the angry Egyptian Coptic Christian who makes an anti-Muslim film in California, or the cold, calculating Egyptian/Sudanese/Tunisian/Libyan/Yemeni Mullah who downloads it, finds the most inflammatory parts, and then does his best to rile up his ignorant flock and send them out against the infidels?

That's plainly covered in my post. You don't think?

Edited by bleeding heart
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No, I don't.

:)

Here's my post again, in full:

Well, there. True enough. I can totally agree that some of the intended victims of murderers are assholes, so long as we can all agree that the murderers and would-be murderers are far, far worse, and by definition.

So your "well then, who is worse?" response to mine is puzzling, since you think we're in disagreement...even though my remark unequivocally answers your subsequent question, and falls squarely in agreement with you.

Edited by bleeding heart
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Filmmakers and reporters are always patting themselves on the back about being "brave" and "transgressive". Well here it is: real bravery would involve every media outlet on the planet airing this movie. Not because it is good, but because it represents the opposite of cowering in the corner, announcing to Islam that all you have to do is blow something up and we will all cow tow to your vision of the world: a world that never insults the prophet.

For once I'm inclined to agree with you, though you and I no doubt would have some quibbles at the margins on the matter.

When the Mohammad cartoon controversy erupted, there were exactly and only two publications (to my knowledge) who printed the cartoons: the right-wing Canadian Western Standard, and the left-wing American Harper's.

Everyone else remained agnostic on the issue.

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That's the perfect example of the soft bigotry of low expectations.

I see now why you have a hard time effectively communicating on this forum. You've been accused o bigotry yourself, and it's hilarious to see you point the finger back at me for what you do often.

It was an analogy, I guess people don't like analogies.

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Ha! Well said. "How can we expect mere brown people to be able to control themselves? They are just animals, like bears in the woods."

Liberals are bigots, but in a sneaky way. They don't really realize that they are. "looking out for the dumb coloured folk who can't look after themselves" is the liberal mindset.

And these are the reasons you and Shady are jokes to me. While the conversation has moved way past this, you guys are stuck 10 pages back.

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http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/09/ambassador-susan-rice-libya-attack-not-premeditated/

U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Susan Rice said the attack on the American consulate in Benghazi was not premeditated, directly contradicting top Libyan officials who say the attack was planned in advance.

“Our current best assessment, based on the information that we have at present, is that, in fact, what this began as, it was a spontaneous – not a premeditated – response to what had transpired in Cairo,” Rice told me this morning on “This Week.”

“In Cairo, as you know, a few hours earlier, there was a violent protest that was undertaken in reaction to this very offensive video that was disseminated,” Rice said, referring to protests in Egypt Tuesday over a film that depicts the Prophet Muhammad as a fraud. Protesters in Cairo breached the walls of the U.S. American Embassy, tearing apart an American flag.

So, was it planned or spontaneous? Here is how the news media muddies the waters to give a good dose of disinformation.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/16/libyan-president-megaryef-al-qaeda-behind-deadly-attack-on-us-consulate/

Libyan President Mohammed el-Megarif said he believes Al Qaeda is responsible for the deadly attack at the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi that killed four Americans and said roughly 50 people have arrested in connection with the violence, according to two broadcast interviews Sunday.

Megarif, president of the Libyan National Congress, also reportedly differed with the Obama administration’s position that the attacks Tuesday were sparked by an anti-Islamic video on the Internet.

In an interview with NPR, Megarif said foreigners have been infiltrating his country over the past few months, which has been undergoing major changes since the uprising against the late dictator Muammar al-Qaddafi

Gaddafi also said that foreign fighters with AL-queda were causing the problems within Libya. The current president is saying the same thing. So do we now help those rebels overthrow the current government the west helped to over throw?

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I see now why you have a hard time effectively communicating on this forum. You've been accused o bigotry yourself, and it's hilarious to see you point the finger back at me for what you do often.

It was an analogy, I guess people don't like analogies.

It was a bigoted analogy, which is can only be applied to Muslims in the Arab world.

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you underestimate the number of atheists in the world, about 20% of the planets population and I think that's a conservative estimate...

Well that's pretty uplifting. Thanks for that.

I think I'll go run up and down the street now and tell everyone the GOOD NEWS! I've got neighbours that do that on a regular basis...in fact they should be here just about any minute now.

Bye, gotta go.

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