Marlins Manager Suspended for Pro-Castro Comments

[Michael Hardner]

Toronto Star

The suspension by the team takes effect immediately. It was announced Tuesday shortly before Guillen was to hold a news conference to explain his remarks, which caused a public backlash.

Guillen told Time magazine he loves Castro and respects the retired Cuban leader for staying in power so long. At least two local officials said Guillen should lose his job.

Although the team is likely within their rights, what would have happened if Guillen had expressed a less-unpopular political stance ?

It's too bad that the best ball players, race car drivers and so on have to rely on their popularity and not just their skill to make a living.

[Michael Hardner]

Another example, also from the world of sports:

Firing of Sportsnet broadcaster after gay marriage tweet

So, if you're planning to have a career in which you're representing an organization that needs broad and non-controversial appeal, then you pretty much have to give up your right to free speech.

[Boges]

Toronto Star

Although the team is likely within their rights, what would have happened if Guillen had expressed a less-unpopular political stance ?

It's too bad that the best ball players, race car drivers and so on have to rely on their popularity and not just their skill to make a living.

What if he had said that Hitler wasn't so bad?

The team built their new stadium in little Havana and are hoping to gain support from a fan base that pretty much ignored them when they played in Fort Lauderdale.

If you fled Cuba because of Fidel and the manager of a team that's trying to court your support came out in support of Fidel, wouldn't you be a bit PO'd?

[GostHacked]

So why can't he express admiration for Castro? More of a tactic to silence people, so much for free speech.

Never give up your right to free speech no matter what you do or who you work for.

[Michael Hardner]

What if he had said that Hitler wasn't so bad?

Right. Or what if he had said that Obama, or GW Bush wasn't so bad ?

What are the limits here ?

The team built their new stadium in little Havana and are hoping to gain support from a fan base that pretty much ignored them when they played in Fort Lauderdale.

What if he said that he was gay, or that they should allow players to declare their gayness ?

If you fled Cuba because of Fidel and the manager of a team that's trying to court your support came out in support of Fidel, wouldn't you be a bit PO'd?

Or if you were devoutly Christian and didn't accept gays as equals, also, you might be PO'd if one was on your ball team ?

[Michael Hardner]

Never give up your right to free speech no matter what you do or who you work for.

If you want to be a ball team manager, you'd be hard pressed to find employment. Do you really think you could give up millions of dollars, fame and all the good trappings and instead be ... I don't know ... a scout or a trainer ?

[Boges]

So why can't he express admiration for Castro? More of a tactic to silence people, so much for free speech.

Never give up your right to free speech no matter what you do or who you work for.

Would you say the same if he was white and said the KKK are good?

Or saying homosexuality should be illegal?

Remember when people freaked out because Rush Limbaugh said that activist who wanted her employer to fund her Birth Control a slut?

You have the right to say what you want, but you don't have the right to avoid a negative reaction from your employer.

[Boges]

Right. Or what if he had said that Obama, or GW Bush wasn't so bad ?

What are the limits here ?

What if he said that he was gay, or that they should allow players to declare their gayness ?

Or if you were devoutly Christian and didn't accept gays as equals, also, you might be PO'd if one was on your ball team ?

We could also talk about the Masters issue here. They don't allow female members. That's discrimination too, but most people don't care, because it's the south and it's golf.

It's all about the audience you are trying to appeal to. Remember the NPR broadcaster that got fired for saying Muslims make him nervous on a plane. You think if he worked for Fox News and said that he'd be fired?

Time and place is what's important here, not the subjective importance of what he said from someone in Canada.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Boges

[GostHacked]

If you want to be a ball team manager, you'd be hard pressed to find employment. Do you really think you could give up millions of dollars, fame and all the good trappings and instead be ... I don't know ... a scout or a trainer ?

What are the millions of dollars going to do for you when you know you sold yourself out? Unless you are not human, you might be able to enjoy the money because you sold yourself out.

[Michael Hardner]

Time and place is what's important here, not the subjective importance of what he said from someone in Canada.

What are the limits then ?

[Boges]

What are the millions of dollars going to do for you when you know you sold yourself out? Unless you are not human, you might be able to enjoy the money because you sold yourself out.

Are you calling Ozzie Guillen a sellout?

You clearly don't follow beisbol?

Edited April 10, 2012 by Boges

[Michael Hardner]

What are the millions of dollars going to do for you when you know you sold yourself out? Unless you are not human, you might be able to enjoy the money because you sold yourself out.

What are the limits ?

Everybody sells themselves out in some way or another.

[GostHacked]

Are you calling Ozzie Guillen a sellout?

Go read it again. I said if you are willing to shut up about certain things because you risk killing the money flow, then you have sold yourself out.

You clearly don't follow beisbol do you?

No I don't follow sports period. Personally it's a waste of time watching sports. I also find it funny that people know all sorts of baseball stats but can't name the last 3 leaders of their country.

[Boges]

No I don't follow sports period. Personally it's a waste of time watching sports. I also find it funny that people know all sorts of baseball stats but can't name the last 3 leaders of their country.

What if you can do both?

[Michael Hardner]

Go read it again. I said if you are willing to shut up about certain things because you risk killing the money flow, then you have sold yourself out.

I had a friend once who felt that people should have a right to watch porn in the office during their break time, and was open about telling people that.

Do you ever opt to keep quiet, so as to not offend ? Do you ever keep quiet so as to stay friendly with somebody with whom you disagree ?

With human relationships, it's never so black and white IMO.

[stopstaaron]

Those people that live there had escaped Castros rule.. getting suspended was less than what I would have done. I'd have fired him

you just don't make insensitive comments like that in an area where the issue is very sensitive

[bush_cheney2004]

...Time and place is what's important here, not the subjective importance of what he said from someone in Canada.

Agreed...in Canada, individuals can be subjected to HRC hearings for the things they say, regardless of employment status. HRCs are sanctioned by government, not just a major league sport.

[Boges]

Agreed...in Canada, individuals can be subjected to HRC hearings for the things they say, regardless of employment status. HRCs are sanctioned by government, not just a major league sport.

I'm not even talking about Human Rights Tribunals.

I'm just talking about the subjective offensiveness of praising Castro. Someone in Little Havana and someone in Canada who loves Cuban cigars and visit Cuba on vacation will have differing views of the issue.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Boges

[bush_cheney2004]

...I'm just talking about the subjective offensiveness of praising Castro. Someone in Little Havana and someone in Canada who loves Cuban cigars and visit Cuba on vacation will have differing views of the issue.

It is very subjective, but the context in this case involves the interests of his employer and the league. He gets to say whatever he wants without fear of any "Canadian style" tribunal witch burning, but he still has to face the consequences for his actions. All is well...

Edited April 10, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[GostHacked]

I had a friend once who felt that people should have a right to watch porn in the office during their break time, and was open about telling people that.

Irrelevant. Watching porn at work, on work computers is against company policy. Talking politics or what leader of a country you like does not fall into that realm.

Do you ever opt to keep quiet, so as to not offend ? Do you ever keep quiet so as to stay friendly with somebody with whom you disagree ?

Sometimes I do keep quiet, but not because I disagree, it's because it would take a couple days to explain why I disagree.

With human relationships, it's never so black and white IMO.

True not all things are black and white, but some things are very clear.

[Boges]

Irrelevant. Watching porn at work, on work computers is against company policy. Talking politics or what leader of a country you like does not fall into that realm.

But if the remarks affect profitability of the company, said company should have the right to discipline him.

Should Don Imus have sued because he was fired for calling a group of female basketball players "Nappy-headed Hoes"?

[bleeding heart]

Another example, also from the world of sports:

Firing of Sportsnet broadcaster after gay marriage tweet

So, if you're planning to have a career in which you're representing an organization that needs broad and non-controversial appeal, then you pretty much have to give up your right to free speech.

Near-minimum-wage Walmart employees are expressly informed that they can be fired for speaking out publically against the company.

This is all par for the course, not particular to the more public eye of the sports market.

[GostHacked]

But if the remarks affect profitability of the company, said company should have the right to discipline him.

What he said was it ..

A - against the law? (nope)

B - against the rules? (nope)

C - against policy of the organization? (possibly)

The only way he could be disciplined is if he violated the policy of the organization. Otherwise all is fair game.

Should Don Imus have sued because he was fired for calling a group of female basketball players "Nappy-headed Hoes"?

I don't think he should have been kicked off the air for it.

[Boges]

What he said was it ..

A - against the law? (nope)

B - against the rules? (nope)

C - against policy of the organization? (possibly)

The only way he could be disciplined is if he violated the policy of the organization. Otherwise all is fair game.

I don't think he should have been kicked off the air for it.

You have the right to your opinion. But suspending Ozzie is clearly not illegal.

[GostHacked]

You have the right to your opinion. But suspending Ozzie is clearly not illegal.

You are missing the point, what was the basis for the suspension? Some rule, regulation or policy point was violated. If there was no violation, then the suspension in my view is illegal.

If he supported Bush or Obama as a hypothetical, he would not have been suspended.