NDP leads polls

[punked]

Ethics and Honesty does not win you elections. Look at Harper's 2004 campaign. It focused on ethics. Look at the results. 99 seats. Look at Harper's 2012 campaign. He knowingly lied about the jets. Look at the results. 166 seats.

Ethical and Honest politicians and parties very rarely win; and when they do, they quite often become pragmatic and do what's needed and not what's ideological. Compare the federal platform to provincial platforms. Provincial parties that have won are either

A - Liberal

or

B - Unethical

You are just making wild claims that will continue to go unproven.

[TheNewTeddy]

Which claims do you want me to prove? I'll go get the links.

[punked]

Which claims do you want me to prove? I'll go get the links.

Please go on to prove ethics and honesty don't win elections.

[TheNewTeddy]

Joe Clark for a start. The man never had a single majority. Harper however did win one. Chretien won 3. Martin, who called the inquiry, had 0 majorities. Tommy Douglas never won federally. He won provincially however, but put a balanced budget as a priority, and thus governed in a pragmatic manner. Rae governed in a pragmatic manner as well but was an idiot. Doer and Calvert/Romanow ran on platforms that could be mistaken for Liberal in other places (I can try to find the links to platforms if you really want me to) and Dexter is certainly no extremist.

Ethical and Honest politicians, if they win, are pragmatists. IE Tony Blair. Compare this to the BC NDP's string of Premiers.

[punked]

Joe Clark for a start. The man never had a single majority. Harper however did win one. Chretien won 3. Martin, who called the inquiry, had 0 majorities. Tommy Douglas never won federally. He won provincially however, but put a balanced budget as a priority, and thus governed in a pragmatic manner. Rae governed in a pragmatic manner as well but was an idiot. Doer and Calvert/Romanow ran on platforms that could be mistaken for Liberal in other places (I can try to find the links to platforms if you really want me to) and Dexter is certainly no extremist.

Ethical and Honest politicians, if they win, are pragmatists. IE Tony Blair. Compare this to the BC NDP's string of Premiers.

I would suggest to you for most of those men they won on Ethics and Honesty and later would fight to keep governments by becoming the very thing that put them in power in the first place the dishonest power/leader. Douglas would be an exception on the provincial level as he would go get his mandate from the people every time his government had done everything they promised.

Edited April 7, 2012 by punked

[TheNewTeddy]

Douglas is actually an exception to the general rule

He is one of my 3 fav all-time Canadian politicians along with Diefenbaker and Manning.

I've yet to find an ethical Liberal I care for.

[punked]

Douglas is actually an exception to the general rule

He is one of my 3 fav all-time Canadian politicians along with Diefenbaker and Manning.

I've yet to find an ethical Liberal I care for.

I also have a place in my heart for Diefenbaker, and I like Clark for some reason as well.

[madmax]

Excellent example of what I'm talking about.

Yes, its an excellent example in the thread regarding the Alberta Election and the NDP leader not accepting a cheque from a Private Hydro Company.

I doubt they would accept a cheque from Private Medical Insurance firms or Private Hospital Corporations..

You, seem to suggest that you want the NDP to sell its soul/principles for electoral success.

If the CCF/NDP did that medicare would never have seen the light of day.

[madmax]

Ethics and Honesty does not win you elections. Look at Harper's 2004 campaign. It focused on ethics. Look at the results. 99 seats. Look at Harper's 2012 campaign. He knowingly lied about the jets. Look at the results. 166 seats.

Ethical and Honest politicians and parties very rarely win; and when they do, they quite often become pragmatic and do what's needed and not what's ideological. Compare the federal platform to provincial platforms. Provincial parties that have won are either

A - Liberal

or

B - Unethical

Completely absurd...

[TheNewTeddy]

you want the NDP to sell its soul/principles for electoral success.

No, voters do.

[Jack Weber]

No, voters do.

Voters want the cabal of money grubbing scum known as the Insurance Industry to control health care in this country...

Hmmmm...

Well some might...

Like the Colin M. Brown types...

Edited April 7, 2012 by Jack Weber

[cybercoma]

I also have a place in my heart for Diefenbaker, and I like Clark for some reason as well.

Well, you are a Dipper, so it makes sense taht you would root for the underdogs.

[Wild Bill]

I also have a place in my heart for Diefenbaker, and I like Clark for some reason as well.

Well of course you would, punked! Clark was always a Red Tory. He and his party at the time were Conservative in name only.

They were always looking to steal votes from the left. It was far easier for a Liberal or even some NDP to drift over to the Progressive Conservative camp under Clark than it would be with the present CPC.

We used to joke in those years how our electoral choices were really Red,Pink or Rose!

Why do you think that leaders such as Mulroney and later Harris looked so different from the usual Conservative leader? Why do you think they won huge majorities?

Why do you think Reform was formed and in less than a decade nearly wiped out the PC party? The conservative vote was fed up with not being offered a true choice.

If Harper is not careful, a conservative choice could emerge in the form of some kind of federal version of the Wild Rose Party. At that point, Harper would despair and the Liberals would jump for joy at the thought of once again having a fractured conservative party.

This is why I actually am cheering for the NDP to wipe out the Liberals. The Canadian people finally are starting to get some clear choices. Historically we always had shades of beige, from guys who wore brown shoes.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Wild Bill

[Evening Star]

Don't see your point. You say the NDP has never compromised enough to win power and then a couple of posts later you list NDP leaders who did exactly that.

And, especially now that Bush himself has admitted the invasion of Iraq was an error, why would anyone look to Blair as a model to follow?

Joe Clark for a start. The man never had a single majority. Harper however did win one. Chretien won 3. Martin, who called the inquiry, had 0 majorities. Tommy Douglas never won federally. He won provincially however, but put a balanced budget as a priority, and thus governed in a pragmatic manner. Rae governed in a pragmatic manner as well but was an idiot. Doer and Calvert/Romanow ran on platforms that could be mistaken for Liberal in other places (I can try to find the links to platforms if you really want me to) and Dexter is certainly no extremist.

Ethical and Honest politicians, if they win, are pragmatists. IE Tony Blair. Compare this to the BC NDP's string of Premiers.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Evening Star

[madmax]

No, voters do.

My error.. I misunderstood your point.

[TheNewTeddy]

Blair did more than just go to war in Iraq, but that's the mindset I'm talking about.

I know a guy who would never, ever, vote for anyone who refuses to oppose abortion.

That kind of litmus test is just as wrong on the right as it is on the left.

As for the NDP being unable to win elections because they compromise = Federal NDP

And as for the NDP winning elections in provinces = Willing to compromise

[Evening Star]

Blair did more than just go to war in Iraq, but that's the mindset I'm talking about.

OK, I was being a bit of an arse. I'm not especially knowledgeable about UK politics in the Blair era. What are some of Blair's accomplishments that we should strive to emulate? The only things that come to mind for me are ending free tuition and CCTV, neither of which inspire me.

I know a guy who would never, ever, vote for anyone who refuses to oppose abortion.

That kind of litmus test is just as wrong on the right as it is on the left.

I mean, if someone truly believes that abortion is murder, this seems like a reasonable position to me. (Likewise with throwing significant support, i.e. human lives and large sums of money, behind a war one holds to be truly wrong and unjust.)

As for the NDP being unable to win elections because they compromise = Federal NDP

And as for the NDP winning elections in provinces = Willing to compromise

That's a fair distinction but I'm not sure I agree. I think it has just been the case that the NDP had a solid base of support in SK/MB for a number of historical reasons and until recently, had never been able to break through the Liberals' hold on Central Canada. McDonough and Layton were not extremist, uncompromising leaders.

[punked]

Blair did more than just go to war in Iraq, but that's the mindset I'm talking about.

I know a guy who would never, ever, vote for anyone who refuses to oppose abortion.

That kind of litmus test is just as wrong on the right as it is on the left.

As for the NDP being unable to win elections because they compromise = Federal NDP

And as for the NDP winning elections in provinces = Willing to compromise

Because I wont say Tony Blair did a good job the NDP can't win an election. There is a weak argument if I ever seen one.

[dre]

Well of course you would, punked! Clark was always a Red Tory. He and his party at the time were Conservative in name only.

Same goes for all the other conservative parties though. Canadian conservatives would be considered socialists in most of the world.

[Wild Bill]

Same goes for all the other conservative parties though. Canadian conservatives would be considered socialists in most of the world.

You've nailed it, Dr. Dre! (once again!)

[Evening Star]

Actually, that would only make sense to me in the US. By the standards of Northern or Western Europe, the CPC do not seem left-wing at all. If anything, I could believe that the NDP platform would be right of centre in many ways by Northern European standards.