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http://news.sympatico.msn.ca/Health/Conten...btitle=&abc=abc

I am so sick and tired of Americans (especially the Bush family) complaining about Canadian competitiveness. But even worse are Canadians who believe that other Canadians should kiss their asses in order to obtain some meagre economic scraps. The US is several times larger than we are and as soon as we find an economic edge, they complain until "the cows come home"; they whimsically institute trade barriers when desired despite the free trade agreeement. Maybe Harper and company should talk to Orchard about these issues? Remember him LOYAL Progressive Conservatives? Or...was he too easily forgotten? Stockwell...Orchard...Harper...sad.

http://www.davidorchard.com/online/2do-index.html

Glad to be NDP! :P:D

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I thought Canadians were supposed to worried about internet pharmacies supplying US customers, since the US market could deplete Canada's supply of cheap medicine very quickly. Shouldn't we be relieved that "Jeb" doesn't want Florida residents tapping into our stash?

As for David Orchard, I don't get what you're trying to say? Are you saying that David Orchard has something that Conservatives ought to listen to? I read his post-election rant, where I thought he came across as a bitter, sad little man. Was there something else on his page that I was suppose to get, particularly in regard to US trade protectionism?

-kimmy :huh:

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Well Kimmy, the consevatives would probably have won the election if they had a more rational leader such as Orchard or even Joe Clark. Leaders who are proud of Canada and are willing to fight for our country. Harper appears to want to be a Bush puppy dog. Harper would have sold us out to the USA. Most Canadians do not believe in the " might is right" nonsense. We believe in honest trade and fair play with every country. We are not willing to sell our soul to the devil for the Yankee dollar

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http://news.sympatico.msn.ca/Health/Conten...btitle=&abc=abc

I am so sick and tired of Americans (especially the Bush family) complaining about Canadian competitiveness.

Uhm, that story had nothing to say about competitiveness. It was the usual drug company nonsense about how importing legal pharmaceuticals over the internet was a "threat" to safety.

Now I have as much contempt as the next fellow for the drug companies and their political shills, but that's no excuse for a rant against the US. Is Jeb Bush a stooge for the American pharmaceutical industry? Sure. So is Paul Martin, just like Jean Chretien was before him, and Brian Mulroney before him. All of them drop to their knees to kiss ass when one of the pharmaceutical company boys walks up to them.

The US is several times larger than we are and as soon as we find an economic edge, they complain until "the cows come home"; they whimsically institute trade barriers when desired despite the free trade agreeement.
Really? Well how shocking! You'd think they were French - or Japanese, or Chinese, or Greek or Canadians, for that matter. Every nation, except those run by idiots, does its best to discourage any kind of trade which isn't in their own interests, but hook or by crook, on whatever pretense. The existence of the Freed Trade Agreement simply make sit more difficult for us and the yanks to do it to each other. Not impossible, clearly, but more difficult.
  Maybe Harper and company should talk to Orchard about these issues?  Remember him LOYAL Progressive Conservatives?  Or...was he too easily forgotten? 
Not entirely forgotten, but hopefully, in time. As it is his name merely stands as an example of just how low the former PC party had fallen, and how few were its standards.
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Well Kimmy, the consevatives would probably have won the election if they had a more rational leader such as Orchard or even Joe Clark.
Really? Who would have voted for them? Not conservatives, that's for sure. So who? Oh, liberals? Socialists? Why would they? They never did before. They could have voted for Joe (Canadian politics' own Forest Gump) Clark last time around and they didn't.
Leaders who are proud of Canada and are willing to fight for our country.  Harper appears to want to be a Bush puppy dog.  Harper would have sold us out to the USA.
I'm always amused by indignant anti-American types who wave their little fists in the air and talk about taking on the Americans. With what? We have no military. And our economy is a fraction of theirs and entirely dependant upon their good will. Take on the Americans? For what? For your sense of outraged political sensibilities? At the cost of economic disaster? The possibility of a million lost jobs means nothing to you, I suppose?
Most Canadians do not believe in the " might is right" nonsense.
They would quickly come to believe in it if they listened to ragmuffins like you and tried their might against the Americans.
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Well Kimmy, the consevatives would probably have won the election if they had a more rational leader such as Orchard or even Joe Clark. Leaders who are proud of Canada and are willing to fight for our country. Harper appears to want to be a Bush puppy dog. Harper would have sold us out to the USA. Most Canadians do not believe in the " might is right" nonsense. We believe in honest trade and fair play with every country. We are not willing to sell our soul to the devil for the Yankee dollar

Did'nt you say you were more supportive of Cuba than the United States. How are those leaders proud of Canada if they consider traditional institutions bigoted.

Leaders who are proud of Canada

Do you mean the Canada from 1968-2004, or the Canada before that. Both are completely different societies, and to be proud of the Canada before 1968 is to be bigoted, because of our evil policies regarding traditional marriage, culture, and morality.

Besides that the Pierre Trudeau who transformed our country said that Canada was as bad as the nazi's during world war 2, and mocked the men who went to war with the nazi's. Were was Trudeau during world war 2, riding around on a motorcycle, mocking new recruits to the Canadian army. He was'nt proud of Canada, he hated it, during the Korean war he even supported Mao, even though millions died under his watch, and 600 Canadian's gave their lives fighting communist aggression.

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Really? Who would have voted for them? Not conservatives, that's for sure. So who? Oh, liberals? Socialists? Why would they? They never did before. They could have voted for Joe (Canadian politics' own Forest Gump) Clark last time around and they didn't.

People forget that it was the Conservatives who were the voices of Canadian nationalism from MacDonald all the way until Mulroney sold us out. Many people see Orchard as NDP and Clark as Liberal but in reality they both represent the traditions of the PC party pre-take over by Bay Street. The fact the neither no longer fits in shows both the effective end of the real PC party and the polarization of politics in this country with the CPC going farther from centre then they have ever been.

The days of the big tent political parties are over (the Liberals still manage but it is breaking down and holding together only as a ticket to power).

and to be proud of the Canada before 1968 is to be bigoted, because of our evil policies regarding traditional marriage, culture, and morality.

I'm afraid AF that the social conservatives went down with Day. Harper is not a social conservative and no social conservative will ever lead the CPC again if they want to be competitive in Ontario. I agree with you that social conservatism is popular in rural areas and among farmers but won't even wash in urban Alberta. I'm afraid that to each his own is here to stay (modified by appropriate but few laws of course).

Take on the Americans? For what? For your sense of outraged political sensibilities?

How about for the jobs, livelihood and pride of the farmers, loggers and ranchers hurt by unfair and illegal trade practices of the Americans. But oh wait that's our fault for not being compliant enough. For saying some things that weren't very nice. Is it a colonial mentality or beaten wife syndrome? I can't decide.

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How about for the jobs, livelihood and pride of the farmers, loggers and ranchers hurt by unfair and illegal trade practices of the Americans. But oh wait that's our fault for not being compliant enough. For saying some things that weren't very nice. Is it a colonial mentality or beaten wife syndrome? I can't decide.

The difference between our relationship with the United States and that of a colony or abused wife, is that a colony can revolt and a wife can go to a shelter and in both those cases there is a chance for positive change. Canada can't "revolt" and can't go to a shelter.

So what are Canada's choices?

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Find new trading partners; It certainly doesn't mean we should kiss their butts or join them in their ill advised aggressions.

Who?

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Find new trading partners! I wonder why nobody has ever tried this before! :lol:

Like, they could put together "Trade Missions" of trade ministers, premiers, industry leaders, and businessmen, and they could travel to other countries to promote Canadian goods and services!

Uh, they already do this, caesar. They work their asses off trying to gain new footholds for Canadian trade all over the world. Guess what, no matter how hard you try, you're not just going to replace the billions and billions of dollars of business we do with the US by just deciding to trade with somebody else instead. :wacko:

-kimmy

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The world is full of countries that we can trade with. China is a growing trade partner. Mexico is seeking new technologie. My son's company sold over 30 million dollars worth of technologie to Mexico. Oil is needed world wide. There is a big world out there. We may soon be one of the better sources for diamonds.

We need not sale our souls for the yankee dollar. The USA needs our resources; they have already used most of theirs up.

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Well Kimmy, the consevatives would probably have won the election if they had a more rational leader such as Orchard or even Joe Clark.
Really? Who would have voted for them? Not conservatives, that's for sure. So who? Oh, liberals? Socialists? Why would they? They never did before. They could have voted for Joe (Canadian politics' own Forest Gump) Clark last time around and they didn't.

Well said :)

Joe Clark could have lead the Conservatives to victory :lol: the same Joe Clark who lead the PC party into oblivion. :wacko:

And I have no idea what voters David Orchard was going to appeal to. Having read some of his articles, his ideology appears to be most at home with Jack Layton, but Canada already has an NDP and doesn't need a second one.

-kimmy

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The world is full of countries that we can trade with. China is a growing trade partner.

What are we going to sell to China that they don't already produce?

Mexico is seeking new technologie. My son's company sold over 30 million dollars worth of technologie to Mexico.

30 million you say? Last year Canada made upwards of 370 Billion dollars in exports....... About 87% of that figure is made from trade with the United States......you do the math :rolleyes:

Oil is needed world wide. There is a big world out there. We may soon be one of the better sources for diamonds.

Who is the largest importer of oil?

We need not sale our souls for the yankee dollar. The USA needs our resources; they have already used most of theirs up.

:huh: Sorry, but we do. If it wasn't for the United States, Canada would be at best a second world nation.

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Joe Clark could have lead the Conservatives to victory  the same Joe Clark who lead the PC party into oblivion.

Clark would have won a majority in 84 given the chance, if he had then everyone would have forgot their little counting problem in '79, (really in the country's best interest because it allowed Tredeau to fight Levesque in the referedum). It was his own party who kicked him out and then he took the leadership again when no one would touch the thing with a 10 foot pole.

The PC party was led into oblivion by Mulroney who went from the largest majority ever to 2 seats in less than 10 years. Reform and the Bloc were both created to oppose Mulroney, (at the expense of the PC party in Quebec and the West). Campbell put the final nail in the coffin with her lackluster campaign but it was all Mulroney that led to the destruction of the PC party not Clark.

If you want a literal explanation, then McKay led it into oblivion when he "merged" with the PCs. Joe Clark opposed this bitterly.

Joe Clark is a good man (certainly a better man than Mulroney, Day or Harper) and should not be spoken poorly of except with good reason.

And I have no idea what voters David Orchard was going to appeal to. Having read some of his articles, his ideology appears to be most at home with Jack Layton, but Canada already has an NDP and doesn't need a second one.

Mr. Orchard's platforms is very similair to that of Mr. Diefenbaker's. From his website.

Preston Manning has decided who is a real Conservative. Joe Clark is not; neither is David Orchard. Judged by Mr. Manning's criteria neither is John Diefenbaker, Robert Stanfield, R.B. Bennett, Robert Borden, Arthur Meighen, John A. Macdonald, Winston Churchill or Benjamin Disraeli.

It baffles my mind that conservatives are fighting the likes of Joe Clark and David Orchard among others. "Cast your net too shallow and you shall surely starve."

What are we going to sell to China that they don't already produce?

China is quickly becoming one of the largest importers of primary materials in the world. Since we have never properly developed secondary or tertiary sectors in this country (due to our trade patterns with the US many would argue) it is our raw materials that we will likely look to sell to them.

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quote: "Joe Clark could have lead the Conservatives to victory the same Joe Clark who lead the PC party into oblivion. "

It was Mulroney that sank the Conservatives not Joe Clarke.

Canadians wanted to send a message to the Liberals that we didn't like their money handling scandals; unfortunately we had no other party with a solid chance of gaining control that we could trust. We were not willing to have a leader who would want to have Canada support the USA aggression in Iraq. Canadians want to negotiate settlements; military intervention should be a last resort. The situation in Iraq was being adequately handled by the UN weapons inspectors.

We want to be proud and fair Canadians not american puppy dogs.

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China is quickly becoming one of the largest importers of primary materials in the world. Since we have never properly developed secondary or tertiary sectors in this country (due to our trade patterns with the US many would argue) it is our raw materials that we will likely look to sell to them.

So they will by our natural resources you say? Ok, what about our manufactured goods? Or is that sector of our economy not important?

But back to your original point: If China was "becoming one of the largest importers of primary materials in the world", why are they not currently purchasing vast sums of Canadian resources?

If replacing the United States with China was possable, don't you think that past Liberal governmnet would have done that?

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Really? Who would have voted for them? Not conservatives, that's for sure. So who? Oh, liberals? Socialists? Why would they? They never did before. They could have voted for Joe (Canadian politics' own Forest Gump) Clark last time around and they didn't.

People forget that it was the Conservatives who were the voices of Canadian nationalism from MacDonald all the way until Mulroney sold us out.

A different kind of nationalism than the one David Orchard and his ilk spout. Old nationalism asserted Canada's indpendance. The new kind merely shows bigotry towards other nations, particularly the United States. It's mindless, pointless nationalism. The nationalism of jealousy and resentment and political zealotry.
  Many people see Orchard as NDP and Clark as Liberal but in reality they both represent the traditions of the PC party pre-take over by Bay Street.
Joe Clark does not have a single conservative belief, not socially, not fiscally. He joined the PC party because that was the party of success in Alberta. Had the Liberals been the winners out there he'd have been just as happy to join them - or the NDP. As for Orchard, he has nothing in common with any conservative ideals either.
The fact the neither no longer fits in shows both the effective end of the real PC party and the polarization of politics in this country with the CPC going farther from centre then they have ever been. 
That simply shows how little you know about politics and history. At best, the transfer of the PC to the Conservative Party simply moves them from a centre-left to a centre-right party. But they aren't nearly as conservative as they were decades ago.
Take on the Americans? For what? For your sense of outraged political sensibilities?

How about for the jobs, livelihood and pride of the farmers, loggers and ranchers hurt by unfair and illegal trade practices of the Americans.

Trade disputes exist between all trading partners. These will be solved, in time, likely after the US election. You don't go overboard with a trading partner when you're still raking in billions in trade surpluses each and every month. You do understand what it means to this country to have a multibillion dollar trade surplus with the Americans every month, do you not?

If you want to get annoyed at trading partners for unfair practices you might examine the Japanese and Chinese sometime, and their determined efforts to sell us everything they can and buy nothing more from us than they absolutely have to. We have growing trade deficits with both nations because of their unfair trade practices.

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Find new trading partners! I wonder why nobody has ever tried this before! :lol:

Like, they could put together "Trade Missions" of trade ministers, premiers, industry leaders, and businessmen, and they could travel to other countries to promote Canadian goods and services!

And then they'd announce huge new trade agreements for the press. Only problem was most of them were "tentative" and never panned out. And those that did were mostly signed in advance and had nothing to do with the trade jaunts.

It was all pretty pathetic, really. Like all Canada's leaders going cap-in-hand to the world's pestholes and begging the local tyrant for contracts.

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The world is full of countries that we can trade with.  China is a growing trade partner.  Mexico is seeking new technologie.  My son's company sold over 30 million dollars worth of technologie to Mexico.
China is a heavily protectionist country - heavily corrupt, too. It buys nothing it isn't bribed to buy. Large contracts require that the seller build the goods (cars, planes, trains, whatever) in China, with a Chinese partner, and then heavily limit what profits can be taken out of China. In effect, selling to China helps the bottom line on companies accounting books, but helps Canada very little or not at all.

Japan is heavily protectionist, too. Most of Europe is involved in a mutual trade pact and has growing trade barriers to outsiders. None of these countries want our manufactured goods, just raw materials, which doesn't provide nearly as many jobs. Hell, Japan doesn't even want us to cut up our trees into wood. It wants raw trees so it can cut them up in its own sawmills and provide jobs for its own people.

For the most part, that leaves third world countries with little money.

As for oil, we are a net importer of oil.

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Joe Clark is a good man (certainly a better man than Mulroney, Day or Harper) and should not be spoken poorly of except with good reason. 
Is the fact his name has become synonymous with horrible political judgement a good enough reason? Clark is a bumbling idiot, and in his dotage has become self righteous, arrogant and bitter.
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QUOTE 

Preston Manning has decided who is a real Conservative. Joe Clark is not; neither is David Orchard. Judged by Mr. Manning's criteria neither is John Diefenbaker, Robert Stanfield, R.B. Bennett, Robert Borden, Arthur Meighen, John A. Macdonald, Winston Churchill or Benjamin Disraeli.

It baffles my mind that conservatives are fighting the likes of Joe Clark and David Orchard among others. "Cast your net too shallow and you shall surely starve."

Joe Clark and David Orchard were given the choice of helping build the new conservative party, they could have had valuable input. But instead they left.

Few if any of those men would agree with the social policies advocated by Clark and Orchard.

It was Mulroney that sank the Conservatives not Joe Clarke.

Canadians wanted to send a message to the Liberals that we didn't like their money handling scandals; unfortunately we had no other party with a solid chance of gaining control that we could trust.

Kim Campbell sunk the conservatives, the cons were rebounding, but she made really stupid mistakes.

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Alliance Fanatic:

Joe Clark and David Orchard were given the choice of helping build the new conservative party, they could have had valuable input. But instead they left.

Joe Clark and Mr. Orchard were roundly treated with contempt by the leadership of the new CPC. As this forum shows, no one on the Con side seems particularily interested in acknowledging their point of view, just ridiculing them as not conservative enough in one respect or another.

AF:

Few if any of those men would agree with the social policies advocated by Clark and Orchard.

True but times have changed. Not many British loyalists around these days either yet almost all the men listed were loyalists (though they fought for Canadian independence).

I think you will find the last election to be the final death knell of social conservatism in this country. I will bet you any amount of money that when the CPC got together to deconstruct the election, one of the main weak points they looked at were the various outburts of social conservative beliefs that hurt them in various sectors of the electorate. I will bet you that next election very strict instructions will go out that such beliefs are not to be expressed under any circumstances. Even during the campaign, Harper modified some of his positions on abortion and such to try and appease the voters.

I don't say that to be mean or ridicule your beliefs but it is the political reality in this country and I don't see it ever changing. If you want to ask other people to follow your belief system you will have to do it without the benefit of the government.

AF:

Kim Campbell sunk the conservatives, the cons were rebounding, but she made really stupid mistakes

True, but Mulroney clearly lay the groundwork with his lowest ever approval rating, fostering the Bloc and Reform and just generally pissing off pretty much the whole country. It was the splitting of the party under Mulroney's watch that really did them in.

Argus:

Joe Clark does not have a single conservative belief, not socially, not fiscally.

Mr. Clark's budget of 1979 included writing off mortgage interest. Twenty years later the Ontario conservatives put the same policy into their platform as a major plank. Surely you aren't calling the Harris/Eves Tories Liberal? Mr. Clark also tabled a more fiscally balanced budget then the Liberals previous budget was. Is he a neo-con? No, but it used to be that you didn't have to be one to be considered a member in good standing with the Conservative party. But I guess that was before Bay Street bought the fine institution? And no, he isn't the slightest bit socially conservative but, right or wrong, if the CPC ever wants to form a goverment they're not going to be either.

Argus:

As for Orchard, he has nothing in common with any conservative ideals either.

Really. It was the Conservative party that fought free trade all the way up to and including Mulroney who railed against it in the 84 campaign. Conservative governments have traditionally not been opposed to enviromental causes in the least. The conservative party out west is associated provincially with rural issues as is Mr. Orchard. The Conservative party has always run to the centre with the possible excerption of Mulroney in 88 who only won due to vote splitting between the Liberals and the NDP and destroyed the PC party in the process.

The problem in this country is that we have forgotten our history.

Argus:

That simply shows how little you know about politics and history. At best, the transfer of the PC to the Conservative Party simply moves them from a centre-left to a centre-right party. But they aren't nearly as conservative as they were decades ago

Hmmmm. People in glass houses........ :)

So the Mulroney was centre left? The voters rejected the Cons in favour of the Liberals in 93 to get away from the centre-left policies of Mulroney? Very interesting.

And then Diefenbaker (decades ago) was much more conservative when argued for and was elected on the promise of all sort of nation building projects, a bill of rights etc? Hell even Bennet came left at the end of his term.

A different kind of nationalism than the one David Orchard and his ilk spout. Old nationalism asserted Canada's indpendance. The new kind merely shows bigotry towards other nations, particularly the United States. It's mindless, pointless nationalism. The nationalism of jealousy and resentment and political zealotry.

Exactly what is the difference between today's nationalism and that historically associated with the conservative party? Ever heard of the national policy, the new national policy and Dief's various initiatives. It's pretty damn similair to Orchard's policies. As to the United States we have spent the last 140 years trying to ward off manifest destiny. Nothing is different now except that manifest destiny is so much closer.

Kindly provide examples of the pointlessness, mindlessness , jealously, resentment or zealotry of today's nationalism? (And no calling Bush a moron is not bigotry but free expression). If you can't you have just made a brilliant strawman argument.

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Stoker:

So they will by our natural resources you say? Ok, what about our manufactured goods? Or is that sector of our economy not important?

But back to your original point: If China was "becoming one of the largest importers of primary materials in the world", why are they not currently purchasing vast sums of Canadian resources?

If replacing the United States with China was possable, don't you think that past Liberal governmnet would have done that?

We already have serious trade deficit in manufactured goods. It would certainly be ideal to improve our manufacturing base and if you have any ideas on how to do this they would be appreciated.

Slaughter capacity to go up 20% this year and another 24% by 2006, export diversification strategies now a priority.

(Hmmmm. US shuts out live cattle but accepts manufactured products plus our supply of the raw resource is up for Canadians. So we increase our slaughter capacity (a form of manufacturing) and diversify our markets. Ranchers get together to form quasi co-ops so that they own some of these slaughter plants giving them more control over their livelihood instead of being stuck with 2 or 3 US owned large slaughter operations. How interesting).

The problem with China is ain't none of us gonna compete with their labour costs. Nor would any of us want to. This is another problem that we are going to have to solve as the free market doesn't seem to be doing all that good a job.

Replacing the United States with China is neither possible nor profitable nor practical nor ideal. Selling more products to China is all of those things and should be pursued so that they do buy more products from us.

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The PC party was led into oblivion by Mulroney who went from the largest majority ever to 2 seats in less than 10 years. Reform and the Bloc were both created to oppose Mulroney, (at the expense of the PC party in Quebec and the West). Campbell put the final nail in the coffin with her lackluster campaign but it was all Mulroney that led to the destruction of the PC party not Clark.

Sure, that was the excuse in 1993, but what about 2000?

In the 1997 election Jean Charest led the PCs from 2 seats all the way up to 20. Then Charest goes to try his luck in Quebec, and Joltin' Joe Clark takes over... and in the 2000 election, wins...

...13 seats. Oops.

But I'm sure he's a great leader, a wise man, a proud Canadian :)

-kimmy

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