Enbridge pipeline: NEB hearings

[jacee]

We produce oil. We consume oil. I'd like to see that supply-demand link stay in Canada, with refining capacity to meet our needs.

It's the pipeline/transportation thing that's tricky.

[greyman]

We produce oil. We consume oil. I'd like to see that supply-demand link stay in Canada, with refining capacity to meet our needs.

It's the pipeline/transportation thing that's tricky.

Maybe we could build a tran-canada oil pipeline that runs directly beside the highway of the same name. What could go wrong?

[William Ashley]

Here is an idea, how about China gets its energy supplies from Asia, and the US gets its Energy Supplies from Canada?

Then we won't need to worry about ecological disasters being shipped over the ocean every day, and transport is reduced.

Stop shipping old world oil to the new world and stop shipping new world oil to the old. It is just stupid.

[cupricity]

http://www.themarknews.com/articles/8114-obstinate-harper-fuels-pipeline-opposition

The truth is, the Harper government has only itself to blame for the breadth and depth of the opposition to new pipelines that would ferry crude from the oil sands in Alberta.

If the Harper government were not so consistently obstinate on federal climate policy, people like me (a climate scientist who has long been wary of the NIMBYism of environmental groups) might not become vociferous opponents of projects like Northern Gateway.

We are forced to oppose individual carbon-intensive projects because the government refuses to listen to scientific or economic reason on climate change.

Since you are a climate science I have an earnest question for you. The pleistocene is marked by increased glaciation periods and our current interglacial peaked out in temperature about 7000 years. Would it not make sense to get the carbon dioxide level up a bit so we ensure that we don't have another ice age? Nothing like covering 50% of the worlds landmass in ice and bringing the climate in Yellowknife to Northern California to create a real ecological disaster.

[cupricity]

Here is an idea, how about China gets its energy supplies from Asia, and the US gets its Energy Supplies from Canada?

Then we won't need to worry about ecological disasters being shipped over the ocean every day, and transport is reduced.

Stop shipping old world oil to the new world and stop shipping new world oil to the old. It is just stupid.

So you are supporting that China continues to buy Oil from Iran. You are supporting a theocracy in control of a nuclear weapon. Also the WTI and Brent crude arbitrage that exists right now costs our country many 10s of billions a year. That is money that could be used to pay for health care and education which is where most of the gov't spending increases over the last 10 years have gone.

The ecological risk can be completely mitigated by parking the commercial fishing fleet of BC with a pittance of the profits this pipeline will bring.

[cupricity]

Ottawa manages how BC's salmon are allocated and managed. BC salmon is a national resource - the province does not collect royalties for example. Recall Alberta threatened to separate from Canada when Ottawa proposed to manage Alberta's oil.

A great deal of the wealth generated by BC salmon goes into the pockets of billionaires like Jimmy Pattison and Galen Weston and the regions closest to their fishing fleets and processing facilities. 30 million sockeye recently swam right through my region with nary a scale being caught or landed locally. Note that federal regulations forbid my region from managing or enhancing local salmon runs so we can generate wealth locally for ourselves. Note also that our provincial government is no more predisposed towards adopting this sort of local/regionally based management. Naturally this sort of thinking is completely anathema to the needs of billionaires and the ability of big distant governments to meet them.

Naturally I'm a communist enemy of the state for suggesting it or even questioning the status quo.

Regardless of how people may feel about getting it there? You're right to point out that Alberta isn't shoving it's oil because the fact is it simply couldn't on its own. So it's up to Ottawa to shove Alberta's oil through other people's province's and regions for them. Alberta only needs a national energy transportation program but not an NEP.

No doubt this ensures most of the wealth falls into the hands of billionaires. Funny how things always seem to work out that way.

How about they take a small pittance of the profits from this pipeline (the gross aggregate value of wild salmon, halibut and groundfish is only 440 million) so the profits that BC realizes from that would be miniscule, and buy the fleet, park it and stop the fishing altogether. That would make NBC a better place and it is very, very affordable given the WTI Brent spread.

[waldo]

The pleistocene is marked by increased glaciation periods and our current interglacial peaked out in temperature about 7000 years. Would it not make sense to get the carbon dioxide level up a bit so we ensure that we don't have another ice age? Nothing like covering 50% of the worlds landmass in ice and bringing the climate in Yellowknife to Northern California to create a real ecological disaster.

notwithstanding past glacial/interglacial periods have no bearing on today's relatively recent decades+ accelerated anthropogenic forced warming, is it your premise that increasing current CO2 emissions further, increasing the current acceleration of CO2 emissions further, is a reasonable and rational strategy? That is to say, you would choose to ignore the greenhouse effect, current impacts of rising atmospheric CO2 levels and the next immediate 100 years impacts on further accelerated CO2 levels... in favour of a presumptive CO2influence on the next, oh... say... 10,000+ years away glacial? More pointedly, given extension to today's orbital forcing coupled with the long residence times of even the present levels of atmospheric CO2, just when are you projecting the end of our current interglacial?

[greyman]

That is money that could be used to pay for health care and education which is where most of the gov't spending increases over the last 10 years have gone.

The more money government pours into health care and education, the more expensive both become.

[William Ashley]

So you are supporting that China continues to buy Oil from Iran.

Yes, and other Gulf States too, ideally Iran is closer so waste in shipping will be reduced especially linking a pipeline with the central Asian Countries and/or Afghanistan, to help fuel the mineral exploration that China is investing in. Same goes for India buying from Iran, Asia should buy from Asia. Modernization leads to equality and enlightenment. Removal of limitation of resources leads to removal of class barriers. But society must be engineered on a basis of value of wealth being a construct of the plentiful not the limited. Thus it is the creation of a society of abundance that will lead to universal peace and harmony, and oil runs out so will peace.

You are supporting a theocracy in control of a nuclear weapon.

Khomeni doesn't support Nuclearization,and is reluctant towards it. He places it as part of the Iranian Identity to explore things, however, I think the west is creating a self fulfilling prophesy. Iran's Interests are to some extent protected by China and Russia, they have no need of their own Nuclear weapon. They also do not need one to deal with Israel, their conventional capacities would be more than enough. Much like the sneak attack on Iraq in the 80's to destroy Iraq's nuclear development the violation of sovereignty is not acceptable for any state. It is a right we all have. Israel is a belligerent theocracy and I don't deny theirs or Iran's sovereign rights to pursue Nuclear weapons. Nuclear armed states are more stable and orderly. It is a good thing to be nuclear armed, it will thwart meddling by Europe and America into Iran's internal affairs. This meddling by western powers into sovereign countries around the world is completely rude and unacceptable. The assassinations and ruination of individuals for being in support of their own interests and sovereignty is completely corrupt and immoral on the part of foreign powers to commit clandestine acts against independent states.

Also the WTI and Brent crude arbitrage that exists right now costs our country many 10s of billions a year. That is money that could be used to pay for health care and education which is where most of the gov't spending increases over the last 10 years have gone.

Invest in alternate and renewable energy, the stuff runs out. Its not about money. It is about skills and resources.

The ecological risk can be completely mitigated by parking the commercial fishing fleet of BC with a pittance of the profits this pipeline will bring.

Its not about money it is about how the economy is sustained. Oil is toxic and damages the environment. We need to reduce emissions, expanding supply won't do that.

You talk about health care costs - fact is oil dramatically increases health care costs and is the #1 killer in the world, both in terms of destroying air quality globally, but also putting toxins in the air,the food and water supply. Oil is the #1 cause of Cancer.

Also whether law stems from god or man does not eliminate the fact it is a law that is being put on another person. People tend to speak for god, even as a prophet, fact being it is man made law, some people just place that law as ordained by god, others by their great great great grand mother. The bottom line here is,law is law, it doesn't matter where it comes from rather more for human rights it matters if the law is reasonable. We don't all agree on laws here, and it is none of our business what other sovereignty's use for their own rule. Culture is ordained. as long as it is not rule over you then it is none of your business.

Unless you loose all culture you cannot understand all culture. The west ain't right either. They are all f-ups. Everyone has the right to live their lives separate and free. it is only in association that social contract becomes something that is morally negotiable.

Edited February 5, 2012 by William Ashley

[eyeball]

How about they take a small pittance of the profits from this pipeline (the gross aggregate value of wild salmon, halibut and groundfish is only 440 million) so the profits that BC realizes from that would be miniscule, and buy the fleet, park it and stop the fishing altogether. That would make NBC a better place and it is very, very affordable given the WTI Brent spread.

Well...I'll tell you. The US offered to give Area G trollers (off Vancouver Island) $30 million to reduce their fishing times to allow US(south bound) stocks to swim past so these stocks could be rebuilt. We agreed, despite no one doing anything about Alaskans doing the same so we could start rebuilding the BC stocks they were catching (it needs to be pointed out lower 48 trollers just go to Alaska to fish.) Long story short, the US handed the $30 million to Ottawa and BC's trollers still haven't seen a dime.

I have no doubt Jim Pattison and Galen Weston would be more than happy to take the deal you're offering, they'd probably walk away with most of it, and long before any trickled down to the fishermen and coastal communities.

By the way what sort of compensation did you have in mind for wildlife tour operators? I'm sure my guests will be thrilled to see our whales and bears all covered in goo. How about the almighty sport-fishermen? If there was ever a favoured pampered fleet out on the water it's these guys. They won't settle for anything less than billions plus priority access to any compensation that is offered so they'll probably get the bulk of whatever the commercial fishermen are offered too. That seems to be the way it usually goes.

Edited February 5, 2012 by eyeball

[jacee]

News of interest to those wondering the nature of First Nations rights re developments (pipelines, mining, etc) on their traditional lands:

The governments must consult with them and accommodate their rights before development can proceed. If the government fails to consult and come to agreement on accommodation, the court may impose an injunction against the development, as happened here:

Miner Solid Gold sues Ontario over court ruling halting its operations By: Romina Maurino, The Canadian Press 01/25/2012 3:50 PM

TORONTO - Solid Gold Resources Corp. (TSXV:SLD) says it plans to sue the Ontario government for $100 million over a ruling that temporarily prevents the junior mining company from drilling on Crown land near traditional First Nation territory The company alleges the province is liable for losses it suffered after a ruling earlier this month sided with the Wahgoshig First Nation in saying Solid Gold failed to consult before beginning its exploration.

Solid Gold has said any duty to consult with First Nations falls to the government, not the mining company, and it's not something the province can delegate.

Solid Gold president Darryl Stretch, who is appealing the injunction, said the ruling has far-reaching implications because it means it would now be up to companies to get consent from First Nations on any project that runs near their traditional land.

"It is very significant for industry as a whole al across Canada," he said."I have seen reports from British Columbia, for example, that are now linking the Solid Gold injunction as grounds for why Enbridge shouldn't be laying a pipeline across British Columbia."

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/breakingnews/miner-solid-gold-sues-ontario-over-court-ruling-halting-its-operations--138053063.html?device=mobile