SICKO

[maplesyrup]

Fahrenheit 9/11's success allowing Moore to plow ahead with new film, Sicko

The idea for Sicko stems from a segment Moore did on his The Awful Truth TV show, in which he staged a mock funeral at a health maintenance organization for a patient denied an organ transplant he needed to survive. The organization relented and paid for the transplant.

Moore, an Academy Award winner for Bowling for Columbine, said he would have plowed ahead with Sicko even if Fahrenheit 9/11 had not given him new commercial clout to raise money.

"I've never let that get in the way, anyway," Moore said. "Even if this movie hadn't done as well, that movie was going to get made, because I think the American people are clamouring to see the HMOs punished."

I am sure once the Americans see Sicko, those that don't already desire it, will be clammering for a publically-funded, publically operated universal health-care system like the Canadian one.

Michael Moore has become one of the most powerful tools for progressive change. I am looking forward to seeing it.

Gotta love the title - Sicko. Shades of Cookoo's Nest, anyone?

[maplesyrup]

Once this movie Sicko is out, I have the feeling there will never be another peep about privatizing health care in Canada.

Does anyone else get the feeling the North American political pendelum is starting to swing left again?

[maplesyrup]

Just saw this on another discussion board:

Michael Moore Definition:

HMO = Hand Money Over

[Cartman]

If anyone compares the efficiency of both systems, they will be more than convinced that our system is far more efficient. We not only spend less money per capita, but we cover more people with it. I cannot fathom why anyone would support privatization when it just does not work.

[Cartman]

Does anyone else get the feeling the North American political pendelum is starting to swing left again?

After Bush, Stalin could win in the United States.

[maplesyrup]

We need to invite Michael Moore back to Canada to do part of his Sicko documentary here. It would be a good contrast to the American system. No wonder he is calling it Sicko.

[I miss Reagan]

And this folks is why Canadians vote the way they do. This is why 70% of Canada is left. Suckers for manipulation and B.S.

Fine if you disagree with Bush's policies, fine if you don't like him. But at least get your information from credible sources not some radical with an agenda. Moore's a proven liar. Even the ultra liberals like Ralph Nader consider him full of crap. The Dems don't want him near them. In fact the big fear is that he actually does Bush a favour with his venom spitting.

[Alliance Fanatic]

Canada is one of I believe 3 nations who outlaw private clinics. MS look at Europe they have good healthcare systems, but have user fees and all of that type of stuff.

Oh by the way my grandfather had to wait 6 months for a hip replacement, and had to go to the United States to get surgery, which was done in a week. Shove that in your pipe and smoke it. Have you ever talked to a nurse, ask them about the abuse of the healthcare system, my solution is user fees.

Once this movie Sicko is out, I have the feeling there will never be another peep about privatizing health care in Canada.

Does anyone else get the feeling the North American political pendelum is starting to swing left again? 

I remember a book were people went to movie theatres, saw movies and were convinced of the greatness of their system. Oh yeah that was 1984. I swear MS you are a carbon copy of Castro. Maybe you should let freedom reign, most people don't buy everything we see in a movie theatre.

Oh yeah I saw this one movie were aliens were taking over the world, it was in a movie so it must be true!!!

[maplesyrup]

And this folks is why Canadians vote the way they do.  This is why 70% of Canada is left.  Suckers for manipulation and B.S. 

Fine if you disagree with Bush's policies, fine if you don't like him.  But at least get your information from credible sources not some radical with an agenda.  Moore's a proven liar.  Even the ultra liberals like Ralph Nader consider him full of crap.  The Dems don't want him near them.  In fact the big fear is that he actually does Bush a favour with his venom spitting.

Anyone else tired of the right wing liars around here?

Michael Moore is an active and welcome participant at the Democratic National Convention.

Moore is quickly turning into an American hero, and probably, more than any other American, will be responsible for turfing Bush from the White House this Fall.

[Black Dog]

And this folks is why Canadians vote the way they do. This is why 70% of Canada is left. Suckers for manipulation and B.S.

Fine if you disagree with Bush's policies, fine if you don't like him. But at least get your information from credible sources not some radical with an agenda. Moore's a proven liar. Even the ultra liberals like Ralph Nader consider him full of crap. The Dems don't want him near them. In fact the big fear is that he actually does Bush a favour with his venom spitting.

Naturally, anyone who disagrees with hard-arsed conservativism must be stupid or gullible.

Utter elitist claptrap.

Venom spitting (not to mention lies and misinformation) is the sole domain of right-wing commentators. They are incensed that a left-wing idealogue like moore dars to turn their own weapons against them and their institutions.

[KrustyKidd]

I should hope that those who view this man as the truth would do a bit of research. I mean, he has a website that takes on questions and concerns but has not addressed the following to any degree. I don't mind the left or the right, I do mind that an idividual can make a supposedly true documentary movie with a predetermined ending and skew facts, time frames, quotes out of context and so on so that his political agenda is met and find that he has an actual audience. Even more so, I question the intelligence, no, I shake my head at the stupidity of those who view his work as anything more than a twenty first century Leni Revenstahl with none of the artistic talent.

That is not to say that his message is wrong, however, there are so many bogus manipulations of fact here in his work that to find the 'facts' themselves, one has to wade through editing tricks, emotional inuendos and partisan politics that would make the Klan evious. And the Left calls this a triumph. For who?

You want to talk about lies and deciept in order to fulfil a political agenda? Hmmm ...... Ceasar (poster on this forum) once said that if only 30% of the movie were true, it is a revelation of astounding proportions to the degeneracy of the Bush administration or something to that effect. Well, which 30% is it folks? There is so much that can be proven false in it I would be hard put to figure it out myself, yet you guys revel this ingenious manipulator because he is simply a self confessed individual who's agenda is 'to get Bush out of the white house.'?

Some facts a bout F 911

Early in this segment, Moore states that "out of the 535 members of Congress, only one had an enlisted son in Iraq."  The action of the segment consists of Moore accosting Congressmen to try to convince them to have their children enlist in the military. At the end, Moore declares, “Not a single member of Congress wanted to sacrifice their child for the war in Iraq.”

How about Cabinet members? Fahrenheit never raises the issue, because the answer would not fit Moore’s thesis. Attorney General John Ashcroft’s son is serving on the U.S.S. McFaul in the Persian Gulf.

Why not count Duncan Hunter's son? Note the phrasing: "only one had an enlisted son in Iraq." Although Hunter's son "enlisted" in the Marines, he is a Second Lieutenant, which means that he is above the rank of an "enlisted man." But why hide from the viewers how many Congressmen really have sons serving in the military in Iraq?

The editing of the Congressional scenes borders on the fraudulent:

    ….Representative Kennedy (R-MN), one of the lawmakers accosted in Fahrenheit 9/11, was censored by Michael Moore.

                According to the [Minneapolis] Star Tribune, Kennedy, when asked if he would be willing to send his son to Iraq, responded by stating that he had a nephew who was en-route to Afghanistan. He went on to inform Moore that his son was thinking about a career in the navy and that two of his nephews had already served in the armed forces. Kennedy’s side of the conversation, however, was cut from the film, leaving him looking bewildered and defensive.

                What was Michael’s excuse for trimming the key segment? Kennedy’s remarks didn’t help his thesis: “He mentioned that he had a nephew that was going over to Afghanistan,” Moore recounted. “So then I said ‘No, no, that’s not our job here today. We want you to send your child to Iraq. Not a nephew.’”

                Kennedy lambasted Moore as a “master of the misleading” after viewing the interview in question.

Fahrenheit shows Moore calling out to Delaware Republican Michael Castle, who is talking on a cell phone and waves Moore off.  Castle is presented as one of the Congressmen who would not sacrifice his children. What the film omits is that Rep. Castle does not have any children.

Are Congressional children less likely to serve in Iraq than children from other families? Let’s use Moore’s methodology, and ignore members of extended families (such as nephews) and also ignore service anywhere except Iraq (even though U.S. forces are currently fighting terrorists in many countries). And like Moore, let us also ignore the fact that some families (like Rep. Castle’s) have no children, or no children of military age.

We then see that of 535 Congressional families, there are two with a child who served in Iraq. How does this compare with American families in general? In the summer of 2003, U.S. troop levels in Iraq were raised to 145,000. If we factor in troop rotation, we could estimate that about 300,000 people have served in Iraq at some point. According to the Census Bureau, there were 104,705,000 households in the United States in 2000. (See Table 1 of the Census Report.) So the ratio of ordinary U.S. households to Iraqi service personnel is 104,705,000 to 300,000. This reduces to a ratio of 349:1.

In contrast the ratio of Congressional households to Iraqi service personnel is 535:2. This reduces to a ratio of 268:1.

Stated another way, a Congressional household is about 23 percent more likely than an ordinary household to be closely related to an Iraqi serviceman or servicewoman. 

Moore ignores the fact that there are 101 veterans currently serving in the House of Representatives and 36 in the Senate. Regardless of whether they have children who could join the military, all of the veterans in Congress have personally put themselves at risk to protect their country.

(Deceits: 1. number of Congressional children in Iraq, 2. Mark Kennedy, 3. Michael Castle, 4. False impression that Congressional families are especially unlikely to serve in Iraq.)

Argue with facts, not tricks. This guy may help get Bush out of the White House, but it in no way makes his work anything more than the pure propaganda that it is.

BTW, why isn't anybody using his work in this film as arguing points in other forums on this board?

Answer: Because you know that more than half of it is bullshit and can't figure out which half it is.

[Black Dog]

I should hope that those who view this man as the truth would do a bit of research. I mean, he has a website that takes on questions and concerns but has not addressed the following to any degree. I don't mind the left or the right, I do mind that an idividual can make a supposedly true documentary movie with a predetermined ending and skew facts, time frames, quotes out of context and so on so that his political agenda is met and find that he has an actual audience. Even more so, I question the intelligence, no, I shake my head at the stupidity of those who view his work as anything more than a twenty first century Leni Revenstahl with none of the artistic talent.

Of course Moore's work is propaganda. But so is Fox News, the National Review, Bill O'Reilly etc. Yet I don't hear any howls of indignation from the right about these and others' distortions, lies and manipulations. I gues spropaganda, for some, is just whatever you disagree with.

Certainly I haven't seen anyone on this board or anywhere else cite Moore as a reliable factual source. He's a provoceteur

Moore ignores the fact that there are 101 veterans currently serving in the House of Representatives and 36 in the Senate. Regardless of whether they have children who could join the military, all of the veterans in Congress have personally put themselves at risk to protect their country.

I agree that Moore's focus on Congress was off the mark. He shjould have looked at the service records of the Bush administration members themselves.

Chickenhawks all.

[maplesyrup]

They are incensed that a left-wing idealogue like moore dars to turn their own weapons against them and their institutions.

I think this is the issue, and why there is such an uproar over Moore's movie Fahrenheit 9/11.

Bush was on the edge of the cliff politically anyway, and it looks like Moore's movie has just pushed him off.

[Alliance Fanatic]

Anyone else tired of the right wing liars around here?

Michael Moore is an active and welcome participant at the Democratic National Convention.

Moore is quickly turning into an American hero, and probably, more than any other American, will be responsible for turfing Bush from the White House this Fall.

How is Moore an American hero, what has he done that has been so great for the US. Making a bunch of movies so he can make millions. I find that American Soldiers fighting in Iraq are heros.

Did'nt Moore say that if the planes on Sept 11 were full of black men that sept 11 would'nt have happened because white men are to chickenshit. With the exception of that one plane that was crashed into the ground by white men who knew what the terrorists were up to.

Bush was on the edge of the cliff politically anyway, and it looks like Moore's movie has just pushed him off. 

Maybe for people with an IQ of a 10 year old girl. The only Moore movie I ever liked was Canadian Bacon. Moore lied in Bowling for Columbine, and he lied in Fahrenheit 9/11. George Bush did'nt lie due to the fact he got his facts from the CIA, and the senate. Basically every single other intelligence agency in the world said their was WMD's in Iraq.

In Fahrenheit  9/11, Moore claims to support our troops. But in fact, he supports the enemy in Iraq—the coalition of Saddam loyalists, al Qaeda operatives, and terrorists controlled by Iran or Syria—who are united in their desire to murder Iraqis, and to destroy any possibility of democracy in Iraq. Here is what Moore says about the forces who are killing Americans and trying to impose totalitarian rule on Iraq:

The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not "insurgents" or "terrorists" or "The Enemy." They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win.

Michael Moore, “Heads Up... from Michael Moore,” MichaelMoore.com, April 14, 2004. Of course if you believe that the people who are perpetrating suicide bombings against Iraqi civilians and American soldiers for the purpose of forcing a totalitarian boot onto Iraq are the moral equivalent of the American Founders, then Moore's claim about the Iraqi insurgents could be valid. But even if that claim were valid (and I do not believe that any reasonable person can equate people fighting for totalitarianism with people fighting for constitutional democracy), then Moore is still being dishonest in Fahrenheit when he pronounces his concern for American troops. To the contrary, he is cheering for the forces which are killing our troops, as he equates the killers with freedom-fighters. And if you think that the people who are slaughtering American soldiers, American civilians, Iraqi soldiers, and Iraqi civilians are terrorists rather than "minutemen," then it is true that Moore supports terrorists. By the way, the number of Iraqi victims of Moore's "minutemen" outnumbers American victims by about 10:1.

This guy sounds more like a traitor that anything else. He seems to sound more supportive of the terrorists, sorry freedom fighters for you lefties, than he does of the American troops.

[Cartman]

How is Moore an American hero, what has he done that has been so great for the US. Making a bunch of movies so he can make millions

Does Moore collect all of the profits from his movie(s)? I heard that he accepted a certain amount and donated anything beyond that for F911. Anyone know?

I think that he received a great deal of attention and praise because the Democrats did a lousy job of providing opposition to the administration on Iraq. Only Dean and Moore were really vocal in opposiing the war effort.

[I miss Reagan]

Anyone else tired of the right wing liars around here?

Moore is quickly turning into an American hero, and probably, more than any other American, will be responsible for turfing Bush from the White House this Fall.

Right wing liar? Is mike moore such a sacred cow to you that you have to resort to adhominem insults to get your point across? I know this board seems to be your entire social life, because you're always here, so I'll go easy but come on. Attack Bush with credibility not cut and paste defamitory tactics. The only people Moore has credibility with are feeble minded anti-americans. I'm sure Moore is turning into quite the Canadian hero. Afterall that is where he gets much of his funding for his hate campaigns.

[Black Dog]

How is Moore an American hero, what has he done that has been so great for the US. Making a bunch of movies so he can make millions. I find that American Soldiers fighting in Iraq are heros.

Heroes?

"I enjoy killing Iraqis," says Staff Sgt. William Deaton, 30, who killed a hostile fighter the night before. Deaton has lost a good friend in Iraq. "I just feel rage, hate when I'm out there. I feel like I carry it all the time. We talk about it. We all feel the same way."

Did'nt Moore say that if the planes on Sept 11 were full of black men that sept 11 would'nt have happened because white men are to chickenshit. With the exception of that one plane that was crashed into the ground by white men who knew what the terrorists were up to.

Uh...source?

And I thought this was funny:

Right wing liar? Is mike moore such a sacred cow to you that you have to resort to adhominem insults to get your point across?

I know this board seems to be your entire social life, because you're always here, so I'll go easy but come on.

The only people Moore has credibility with are feeble minded anti-americans. I'm sure Moore is turning into quite the Canadian hero. Afterall that is where he gets much of his funding for his hate campaigns.

Again: where is the vitriol for some of the others responsible for the sorry state of political discourse? Like Ann "Tim McVeigh should have blown up the New York Times" Coulter, or Bill "Shut Up Shut Up Shut Up" O'Reilly?

Or could it be that it's not the lies or the venom you folks are upset about, but that, for once, such tactics are being directed at right-wingers, instead of coming from them?

Hypocrites.

[I miss Reagan]

Again: where is the vitriol for some of the others responsible for the sorry state of political discourse? Like Ann "Tim McVeigh should have blown up the New York Times" Coulter, or Bill "Shut Up Shut Up Shut Up" O'Reilly?

Or could it be that it's not the lies or the venom you folks are upset about, but that, for once, such tactics are being directed at right-wingers, instead of coming from them?

I don't see what your point is I don't remember defending O'Reilly or Coulter. Of course I agree with certain aspects of what they say. But since you brought it up, maybe you should ask yourself why right wing talk radio is so popular and why Fox News is number 1 in the US right now. I would argue that the population has grown tired of the left leaning bias in the mainstream media.

I will say this, although Limbaugh and Coulter are a little too radical for my liking, at least they back it up with solid facts.

[Tawasakm]

Heroes?

QUOTE

"I enjoy killing Iraqis," says Staff Sgt. William Deaton, 30, who killed a hostile fighter the night before. Deaton has lost a good friend in Iraq. "I just feel rage, hate when I'm out there. I feel like I carry it all the time. We talk about it. We all feel the same way."

Black Dog Posted on Jul 28 2004, 06:13 PM

Blackdog I read this link that you provide. It raised some very serious issues regarding mental health. Soldiers aren't trained to deal appropriately with the issues arising from death (killing). Coupled with this soldiers are trained to kill as automatically as possible. The article talks about how soldiers are reacting to this.

I don't see anything in this article to suggest that those who seek such service may not be considered heroic. It only speaks to me about the abhorrence of war and how it affects all those associated with it.

Your quote appeared, to me, overly selective. You could as easily have quoted this from the article:

Payne is as conflicted as his troops about making sense of war. Reconciling duty with ethics, he says, seems more complicated in Iraq.

"I'm a Christian. I feel I'm saving my soldiers' lives by destroying as many enemy as I can. But at the end of each day, I pray to God. I worry about my soul," he says.

... by which we might draw different conclusions.

[maplesyrup]

Speaking of Ann Coulter I read recently she got the boot from USA Today. How come?

[maplesyrup]

Anyone else tired of the right wing liars around here?

Moore is quickly turning into an American hero, and probably, more than any other American, will be responsible for turfing Bush from the White House this Fall.

Right wing liar? Is mike moore such a sacred cow to you that you have to resort to adhominem insults to get your point across? I know this board seems to be your entire social life, because you're always here, so I'll go easy but come on. Attack Bush with credibility not cut and paste defamitory tactics. The only people Moore has credibility with are feeble minded anti-americans. I'm sure Moore is turning into quite the Canadian hero. Afterall that is where he gets much of his funding for his hate campaigns.

This is so sad to see, someone who has no substance to their arguments, so they constantly resort to personal insults. Too bad their arguments are so weak that this is their only option. Hatred is a sickness as Michael Moore well knows.

[I miss Reagan]

Well MS you opened the door for personal insults, I merely followed suit. If you'd like to continue on that road join me on a little forum called Destroy Canada

[Black Dog]

don't see what your point is  I don't remember defending O'Reilly or Coulter. Of course I agree with certain aspects of what they say. But since you brought it up, maybe you should ask yourself why right wing talk radio is so popular and why Fox News is number 1 in the US right now. I would argue that the population has grown tired of the left leaning bias in the mainstream media.

This may come as a bit of a surprise, but FOX and Clear Channel ARE the "mainstream media". CNN tries to plant itself in the middle, but leans to the right and the other networks follow suit.

For once, I'd like some solid examples of the so-called "liberal" media bias.

I will say this, although Limbaugh and Coulter are a little too radical for my liking, at least they back it up with solid facts.

No. They're liars.

Refuting Rush.

FAIR on Rush

Lyin' Annie

[Alliance Fanatic]

CNN tries to plant itself in the middle, but leans to the right and the other networks follow suit.

I thought the staff at CNN was not to cheer when Al Gore may have won the election.

But then again middle of the road for you is probably pravda or the gay militia bulletin.

[I miss Reagan]

CNN tries to plant itself in the middle, but leans to the right and the other networks follow suit.

Refuting Rush.

FAIR on Rush

Lyin' Annie

That's awsome! tell me more! Ya I'm sure compared to your thinking Christiane Amanpour and Carol Lin are very "right wing" politically. Ted Turner too eh?

And spare me the obscure lefist websites, you know I could do the same lame thing by posting a bunch of obscure rightist websites and back and forth we go proving nothing.