Northern Gateway a must?

[Canuckistani]

I doubt that, her party is in serious trouble for other issues, having the same stance as the NDP on this issue won't help her...in fact if the public views her as not being tough and caving to enbridge and the federal conservatives she'll lose even more support..

I doubt it too, but it's conceivable. She is acting tough, finally, she'll get credit for that. And a lot of support for the NDP is soft. The election will be closer than the polls currently indicate, is my guess.

[login]

Alberta has control of the land, if they want to set Environmental Standards Regulations they should be able to, even NAFTA has environmental protection clauses.

Although in reality if they want to earn a profit they could look to port fees or some other provnicial tax surcharge on import/export into and out of the province, it doesn't need to be cut with the province itself.

Although in reading a post on various news sites today one post really struct me, that being Alberta blocking BC commerce. BC has higher environmental standards than Alberta that is all there is to it. Oil Piplelines and tankers are expensive, and as we can recall from Exxon Valdez or BP Gulf is that the costs of a spill can be int eh billions, why take that risk for no profit?

Alberta has a point but BC should be able to regulate its Environmental Safety, and insure addequette funds and resources are available to respond in the event of a leak or spill as well as lost prestige as it lowers their tourism value and increases their public safety costs. The risk of Environmental Terrorism would also be another factor, or just terrorism itself or foreign espionage or corporate espionage. BC is bearing risks it is atakeholder and should get its fair share to give it some benefit. It is fair to do the same of commerce in Alberta.

Example:

"...the Dominion possesses legislative powers… to regulate this branch of external trade for the purpose of protecting it, by ensuring correctness in grading and freedom from adulteration, as well as providing for effective and reliable public guarantees as to quality. It does not follow that it is within the power of Parliament to accomplish this object by assuming, as this legislation does, the regulation in the provinces of particular occupations, as such, by a licensing system and otherwise, and of local works and undertakings, as such, however important and beneficial the ultimate purpose of the legislation may be"

This would not of course stop BC from taxing all Oil Tanker Crews, oil pipeline regulators with professional fees and special professional taxes in the billions, effectively killing the pipelines ability to function in BC. Nor seting up toll roads at all access points with a 1 million dollar toll for entry and exit.

Carnation Co. v. Quebec Agricultural Marketing Board, Martland J. held that provincial regulations that had an incidental effect on extraprovincial trade were valid:

Likewise

Attorney-General for Manitoba v. Manitoba Egg and Poultry Association et al.

"Conversely, the general limitation upon provincial authority to exercise of its powers within or in the province precludes it from intercepting either goods moving into the province or goods moving out, subject to possible exceptions, as in the case of danger to life or health"

It is clear oil is a toxic substance that poses great danger to health and safety.

BC could ban crudeoil if it wanted, and seize it from the pipeline.

Edited July 27, 2012 by login

[Wilber]

It's not crude oil, it's bitumen. Worse than crude.

Spill from Hell

[Wilber]

they could lose every seat which would more than offset any gains of new seats in alberta and those seats would likely go to the NDP which could be the edge required to form the next make it the next government...timing of all this critical too as it will coincide with next federal election...

By my count they have 21 seats to lose in BC and only 1 to gain in Alberta.

[Battletoads]

Embridge strikes again, ~200 000 liters of crude bitumen from a pipeline in Wisconsin. Knowing their reputation for under reporting I'd not be surprised if the spill a couple of orders of magnitude larger.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/07/28/enbridge-wisconsin-spill-pipeline-closed.html

Canadians should take any and all actions necessary to stop Alberta from steamrolling this pipeline across our country.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Battletoads

[login]

It is stories like Battletoads presents as well as ones such as this http://www.opinion250.com/blog/view/25188/1/enbridge+and+the+black+spots+of+the+leopard+-+part+3

that show that BC should operate its pipeline in a joint venture (with first nations approval and stakeholding) as Enbridge has shown itself to have a bad safety record, It is not that they won't leak it is that once they are leaking before too long it will stop and the only ill is a bunch of lethal toxins falling into the environment that will kill anything exposed and cause serious health defects in any humans effected which will cost the tax payers millions.

Edited July 29, 2012 by login

[kimmy]

What is the real need for this project?

To get oil to China faster?

To help big corporations get rich faster?

I'm not opposed to China getting their oil, and I'm not opposed to corporations making profits. But I'm not convinced that either of those things should be high priorities for me or other average Canadians.

What is the benefit of this for the average Canadian?

I guess the big carrot being dangled for us is "jobs!" But where? There'll be some short-term construction jobs. And there'll be some port jobs created in Kitimat. (I assume that they'll be able to find people willing to relocate to Kitimat for work.) And I'm sure this will add more gas to the fire in Fort McMurray, which is already swamped with far more workers than the city has infrastructure to handle, and where the labor shortage is so intense that Tim Hortons has to offer professional-like salaries to the people working the counter.

But if jobs for Canadians was the real priority, we wouldn't be talking about shipping raw product overseas to be refined by foreign workers.

I'm skeptical that any of this should be a high priority for average Canadians. If the corporations involved can raise the money to make it happen on their own, and negotiate all the deals, and pay all the bills themselves, then that's cool with me. But if not, I have a hard time seeing it as a loss to the average Canadian.

-k

[stamps]

Getting a higher price for our oil is a benefit..... the federal government increases its take in revenues.... the entire country benefits by the simple fact that our government becomes richer thus enabling it to better provide services for its people... maybe refining it here and then selling it might be an arguement but the market will dictate whether that is the best option will it not? BC trying to extort money from Alberta by denying it access to its market is the real issue here... we live in a country that exports our resources for a living and Alberta is being denied that right here IMO.... if Alberta is in fact denied access to our west coast by northern gateway they will find another way.... I don't see Alberta giving into blackmail and extortion.... the long term ramifications for this country is anyones guess if this all falls through, I don't imagine it will be very positive though....

Edited July 30, 2012 by stamps

[Wild Bill]

"Does our economy run on oil?"

I sure hope its running on something! Living here in Ontario its blatantly obvious that it doesn't run on manufacturing anymore.

[kimmy]

Getting a higher price for our oil is a benefit.....

How does the pipeline get a higher price for our oil? As far as I can tell, the idea is for China to get their oil cheaper, not to get us a higher price for it.

the federal government increases its take in revenues....

Most of the royalties go to the provinces. The federal government will collect taxes from the new jobs created, and if we're lucky they might even collect some taxes from the corporations involved...

the entire country benefits by the simple fact that our government becomes richer thus enabling it to better provide services for its people...

Trying to sell this as a boost for all Canadians is a bit of a stretch, considering how fiercely Alberta guards its royalties, how fiercely the industry fought against Ed Stalmach when he had the gall to suggest that royalties ought to increase, all the subsidies and tax breaks that have been given to oil companies over the years... I think it's pretty clear that the big beneficiaries of this project are the corporations involved, not the average Canadians.

maybe refining it here and then selling it might be an arguement but the market will dictate whether that is the best option will it not?

If it's all about the market, then the market can find its way to make the pipeline happen. They can file the cost of compensating natives and addressing BC's environmental concerns under "costs of doing business".

BC trying to extort money from Alberta by denying it access to its market is the real issue here... we live in a country that exports our resources for a living and Alberta is being denied that right here IMO.... if Alberta is in fact denied access to our west coast by northern gateway they will find another way.... I don't see Alberta giving into blackmail and extortion.... the long term ramifications for this country is anyones guess if this all falls through, I don't imagine it will be very positive though....

I just don't see a big rush. What's the worst that could happen? The oil doesn't get sold as fast? The oil stays in the ground longer? That's not such a bad thing. It'll only become more valuable as time goes on. It might be a big rush for China, and it might be a big rush for a few big corporations, but I don't think it's a big rush for you or me.

-k

[waldo]

Getting a higher price for our oil is a benefit..... the federal government increases its take in revenues.... the entire country benefits by the simple fact that our government becomes richer thus enabling it to better provide services for its people...

see 'Dutch Disease' and the impact on manufacturing sectors... see the off-shoring of wealth/jobs...see the disproportionate revenue distribution... see the so called "sustainable development" (oxymoron)... see an over-dependence on non-renewable resources... see a lack of diversification within Alberta... see the continuation on import oil dependency...etc., etc., etc.

[msj]

Listening to Norman Spector on CBC this morning about this issue was very interesting.

Finally, someone who actually understands BC.

Clark has changed her tune on the pipeline because she desperately is seeking re-election in May/13.

She knows this is the popular thing to do and since the provincial NDP have taken the anti position she has taken the best position of being tough.

This pipeline likely will be good for BC.

But before it is ever built it will likely take down some politicians along the way.

One of those could be Harper.

With Alberta and then Jason Kenney and John Baird stupidly playing the legal constitutional card, this very well could be an issue in the 2015 federal election.

If Alberta and the Feds think it's a good idea to push British Columbian's around with such talk they better consider what the consequences would be if BC decided to start voting NDP again (both provincially and federally).

Not only could BC end up with a NDP majority (hopefully not - realistically a possibility) but we could end up with a NDP minority at the Federal level.

Wouldn't be the first time BC has changed political parties at the federal level virtually overnight.

[Wilber]

Getting a higher price for our oil is a benefit..... the federal government increases its take in revenues.... the entire country benefits by the simple fact that our government becomes richer thus enabling it to better provide services for its people... maybe refining it here and then selling it might be an arguement but the market will dictate whether that is the best option will it not? BC trying to extort money from Alberta by denying it access to its market is the real issue here... we live in a country that exports our resources for a living and Alberta is being denied that right here IMO.... if Alberta is in fact denied access to our west coast by northern gateway they will find another way.... I don't see Alberta giving into blackmail and extortion.... the long term ramifications for this country is anyones guess if this all falls through, I don't imagine it will be very positive though....

I think it could be really positive. Maybe this country will finally deal with its own energy self sufficiency instead of flogging as much as possible, as fast as possible, to anyone possible, the easiest way possible, damn the economic and environmental consequences. At present, Alberta and the feds can't see past the dollar sign stuck to the end of their nose.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Wilber

[stamps]

Listening to Norman Spector on CBC this morning about this issue was very interesting.

Finally, someone who actually understands BC.

Clark has changed her tune on the pipeline because she desperately is seeking re-election in May/13.

She knows this is the popular thing to do and since the provincial NDP have taken the anti position she has taken the best position of being tough.

This pipeline likely will be good for BC.

But before it is ever built it will likely take down some politicians along the way.

One of those could be Harper.

With Alberta and then Jason Kenney and John Baird stupidly playing the legal constitutional card, this very well could be an issue in the 2015 federal election.

If Alberta and the Feds think it's a good idea to push British Columbian's around with such talk they better consider what the consequences would be if BC decided to start voting NDP again (both provincially and federally).

Not only could BC end up with a NDP majority (hopefully not - realistically a possibility) but we could end up with a NDP minority at the Federal level.

Wouldn't be the first time BC has changed political parties at the federal level virtually overnight.

Playing the legal constitutional card ? You mean the laws that are suppose to govern our country ? Understanding BC ? Pushing BC around ? An NDP(or any other) government in BC is somehow above the canadian constitution ? The last time I checked BC was part of Canada and subject to our constitution... it looks to me like BC is trying to play by their own rules and push around Alberta .....

[msj]

Playing the legal constitutional card ? You mean the laws that are suppose to govern our country ? Understanding BC ? Pushing BC around ? An NDP(or any other) government in BC is somehow above the canadian constitution ? The last time I checked BC was part of Canada and subject to our constitution... it looks to me like BC is trying to play by their own rules and push around Alberta .....

We're talking politics.

Politicians can throw up all kinds of legal roadblocks and lay political minefields.

Clark has just laid one now and it could blow up in the CPC's face in 2015 if they are not careful.

If the BC conservatives want to show well at the polls in May then they may want to take a stand on this issue.

If Harper's CPC want to continue to do well in BC in the next election then they may want to take a stand on this issue.

And that stand is closer to Clark's position than it is to towing Enbridge's line.

Clark is being percieved in BC as standing up for us.

She is setting up a classic us versus them.

Hiding behind the Constitution will not win anyone any votes come 2013 and 2015.

No, what BC'ers want is someone to stand up for us - if a company with a terrible record like Enbridge is going to build a pipeline across our land (and, more importantly, First Nations land - good luck with that) then we are going to set some reasonable conditions.

If the BC NDP do get elected in May then the smartest thing they can do is keep this issue alive until 2015.

They can take over Clark's tough stance, "stand up for BC," and hope to use it as leverage in the federal election in 2015.

That would be interesting and the Constitution won't have anything, substantially, to do with any of this when it's all over.

[Moonbox]

Given Enbridge's track record I'd be very wary of taking risks with minimal economic benefit myself as well. I'd be nice to see oil being refined in Canada but I think BC'ers need to make the decision themselves.

[blueblood]

How does the pipeline get a higher price for our oil? As far as I can tell, the idea is for China to get their oil cheaper, not to get us a higher price for it.

Most of the royalties go to the provinces. The federal government will collect taxes from the new jobs created, and if we're lucky they might even collect some taxes from the corporations involved...

Trying to sell this as a boost for all Canadians is a bit of a stretch, considering how fiercely Alberta guards its royalties, how fiercely the industry fought against Ed Stalmach when he had the gall to suggest that royalties ought to increase, all the subsidies and tax breaks that have been given to oil companies over the years... I think it's pretty clear that the big beneficiaries of this project are the corporations involved, not the average Canadians.

If it's all about the market, then the market can find its way to make the pipeline happen. They can file the cost of compensating natives and addressing BC's environmental concerns under "costs of doing business".

I just don't see a big rush. What's the worst that could happen? The oil doesn't get sold as fast? The oil stays in the ground longer? That's not such a bad thing. It'll only become more valuable as time goes on. It might be a big rush for China, and it might be a big rush for a few big corporations, but I don't think it's a big rush for you or me.

-k

The pipeline will not influence the world price of oil. There are too many players and canada sells its oil at a world price. There's no discount for china, just more dollars into the govts, companies, and employees kitty.

Just remember those corporations pay tax and shareholders and employees (ceo down) pay tax, and remember that alberta lost out to saskatchewan when SK lured the oil companies there with better royalty rates, which benefitted the average SK person with higher pay due to competition for workers, property values rising, and more employment opportunity. Sounds like the avg person benefits.

The market right now is saying it wants oil. My big worry is if oil prices get too out of control then the switch to natural gas takes place and the usa and china promptly kicks us to the curb with their massive nat. Gas access, and we're left milking a dry cow.

Its a big enough rush to develop a resource and create jobs. What's wrong with a person working at timmys up there making 20 bucks an hour. Have you looked at what has happened with north dakota when fracking technology took off. One of the very few places in the usa where there's employment opportunity. Seems like all of north dakota is benefitting when those big companies are investing money in extracting oil whether its investing in workers, technology, or equipment.

I don't understand it, a pipeline is the most efficient way to transport a liquid. However if I was a big player at the enbridge shareholder meeting I wouldn't be happy with enbridge's record with pipelines especially when they're looking to expand. I'd be looking to put my chips in with another pipeline company. Its far better than plugging the railway and highway with oil coming out of the oilsands. Make no mistake, people want oil and the benefits that come with it, and they will get their oil.

[stamps]

The pipeline will not influence the world price of oil. There are too many players and canada sells its oil at a world price. There's no discount for china, just more dollars into the govts, companies, and employees kitty.

From what I have been told we are not getting world price for our oil, we only sell to the United States... if we open up our market to Asia we will get a better price is the way I understand it... maybe someone else could expand on the pricing structure of our oil....

[madmax]

They lobby. Who pays them? Saudi Arabia?

Screw them all and the horses they rode in on! If you're not a Canadian you should be banned from lobbying in our country.

The Saudis and Chinese use their money and power for their OWN interests, NOT for OURS!

1) WB, you get your oil from Saudi not Alberta.. Alberta is targeted to go to China on your dime..

Never mind lol...

[madmax]

What is the real need for this project?

To get oil to China faster?

To help big corporations get rich faster?

I'm not opposed to China getting their oil, and I'm not opposed to corporations making profits. But I'm not convinced that either of those things should be high priorities for me or other average Canadians.

What is the benefit of this for the average Canadian?

I guess the big carrot being dangled for us is "jobs!" But where? There'll be some short-term construction jobs. And there'll be some port jobs created in Kitimat. (I assume that they'll be able to find people willing to relocate to Kitimat for work.) And I'm sure this will add more gas to the fire in Fort McMurray, which is already swamped with far more workers than the city has infrastructure to handle, and where the labor shortage is so intense that Tim Hortons has to offer professional-like salaries to the people working the counter.

But if jobs for Canadians was the real priority, we wouldn't be talking about shipping raw product overseas to be refined by foreign workers.

I'm skeptical that any of this should be a high priority for average Canadians. If the corporations involved can raise the money to make it happen on their own, and negotiate all the deals, and pay all the bills themselves, then that's cool with me. But if not, I have a hard time seeing it as a loss to the average Canadian.

-k

Corporations must get approval from government (S).

Listed above is part of the negotiation process.

Its interesting to read those who want a deal, those who think any deal is a good deal, those who want to protect the environment, those who want common sense to apply and those who want Canadians to benefit.

Its all part of a good debate.

Therefore, I am concerned only if the debate is shut down prematurely.

I have read alot of good stuff so far, here, I can only think this same debate should occur within government.

No need to sell ourselves short.

I also want to see the real figures on where this "270 Billion" comes from and how much of it ends up in Alberta, in BC and in Canada, and over what timeline. I am also not aware that all the previous pipelines others listed have thousands of jobs attached, so why would this one?

I enjoyed the discussion on raw bit upgrading vs oil refinery. I didn't understand the difference until now.

Regardless I personally would make both mandatory, as A job here is more important then a subsized job in China.

[Wilber]

What is the economic advantage to Canada if you are bringing in foreign revenue from the sale of Canadian oil to Asia, only to spend even more to buy imported oil for domestic use?

[PIK]

I will not pass immediate judgement on your comment; preferring instead, to allow time for you to further qualify your references to Japanese garbage and the buffer mechanics at play.

It was a joke waldo, I should have realized it would go over your head. My mistake. Anys the garbage I am talking about is from japan's tsumi(SP), coming to the BC coast line.

[PIK]

Given Enbridge's track record I'd be very wary of taking risks with minimal economic benefit myself as well. I'd be nice to see oil being refined in Canada but I think BC'ers need to make the decision themselves.

The pipeline company needs to show us that they can get alot better at what they do, right now they are thier worst enemies. And canadians will make that decision, not BC'ers.

[eyeball]

Playing the legal constitutional card ? You mean the laws that are suppose to govern our country ? Understanding BC ? Pushing BC around ? An NDP(or any other) government in BC is somehow above the canadian constitution ? The last time I checked BC was part of Canada and subject to our constitution... it looks to me like BC is trying to play by their own rules and push around Alberta .....

That's kind of rich. Remember how it felt when Ottawa tried to push Alberta around with that other national energy strategy-like thingy?

Now that the other foot's giving it a push, Alberta has some nerve expecting Ottawa to turn around and shove it's tar-pipes through other province's whether they like it or not. That just about takes the cake as far as sheer chutzpah goes. Both can go piss up a rope as far as I'm concerned.

Not you personally stamps, I'm sure your a nice enough person and heck even one of my kids is an Albertan now so I know you're not all out to lunch.

[eyeball]

Has anyone given pause to consider that if our country's original energy nationalization strategy had been realized we'd probably have built these pipelines and tankers decades ago? Imagine...we could have been like Norwegians or something - leveraging the profits of our nation's natural capital as investment capital in backward countries who couldn't come together on a program or strategy if their own economy depended on it. That said and in light of other things run from Ottawa, like DFO for example we'd probably have cocked it all up.

Hey look, there goes another Norwegian fish farm.