First Nations peoples are being eradicated by

[g_bambino]

Not even a percentage shared.

De Beers gives millions to the community.

Regardless, the land is Crown land. It's therefore not incongruous that De Beers pays the Crown for the rights to mine there.

[cybercoma]

De Beers gives millions to the community.

Regardless, the land is Crown land. It's therefore not incongruous that De Beers pays the Crown for the rights to mine there.

The First Nations' never ceded their land to the Crown and what land they did are bound by the agreeements that were made with the Crown and confirmed by the Constitution.

Also, the "millions" figures that you cite include the salaries of Attawapiskat band members at the mine, a training centre to train DeBeers employees, the operation and maintenance of their office in Attawapiskat, and the money that Attawapiskat business partners make. It's a little dishonest to say that DeBeers "gives" millions to the community because that's not the case. DeBeers mostly purchases the labour of services of the community. They're not giving that full amount. It would be like asking a company what they've done to help victims of hurrican Katrina and the company turning around and claiming it gave millions because some of the victims are its employees.

[g_bambino]

The First Nations' never ceded their land to the Crown.

The Royal Proclamation of 1763 (a part of the constitution) brings all land in Canada under the sovereignty of the Crown. What you're suggesting is that the First Nations live under some other or their own sovereignty, neither of which is the case.

Perhaps "gives" wasn't the right term; not for all the money that flows into Attawapiskat from De Beers, anyway; De Beers does, as far as I know, actually give some money to the community. Regardless, Attawapiskat's economy does seem to include millions in money that comes from De Beers in one way or another.

[ed.: +]

Edited December 22, 2011 by g_bambino

[NWRS]

Aside from that, the government isn't even meeting the basic social welfare criteria that they have set out for all Canadians. Nowhere else in Canada would they allow a town to get this bad. Period. You can say the government provides them with money, but money is provided to every other town as well. When they find themselves in a "state of emergency" the government ponies up more support to address the emergency and usually launches an investigation to ensure it doesn't happen again. Not for the First Nations though. They can piss off, apparently.

That simply isn't true, comments like yours are most often made by people who have never lived or been poor in many of Canada's non native small towns. Also, unless there is some sort of natural disaster the government won't come and help you, or build you a new house just because you wouldn't or couldn't take care of it on your own. Do you think most small towns in the country have their own hospital, or arena, or even school for that matter? No, they don't, and there are lots of small white communities with less opportunity and more poverty then Attawapiskat, just as there are many similarly sized native communities that are doing much better with the same or less. Do you think all non native Canadians everywhere live to exactly the same standards set out by the government? It makes no sense to deny the obvious, and that obviously isn't true.

[g_bambino]

Not quite on topic, but somewhat related, and probably unworthy of its own separate thread:

I noticed today that, in New Zealand, Māori play a role in the ceremonies surrounding the state opening of parliament; pictures here. Like Canada, the Crown in Right of New Zealand has treaties with the indiginous people (the Treaty of Waitangi being the most important, equivalent to our Royal Proclamation of 1763).

In Canada, First Nations have been part of installation ceremonies for governors general and are a ubiquitous presence at any major event attended by the Queen. But, while those and others like them are worthy practices with a valuable visual message, these ceremonies are only tangentially related to the legislative process; they demonstrate the relationship between First Nations and the Crown, but not, or very rarely, the Crown-in-Parliament, specifically, which is the most important of the Crown's three positions (the other two being in Council and on the Bench) in our Westminster system. It is by parliament that the laws which affect First Nations are passed.

I think it's only right, then, that we follow New Zealand's example and allow First Nations a permanent and prominent place in our state opening of parliament - the Throne Speech and preceding ceremonies (reviewing of the Guard of Honour, etc.) - to remind legislators who are about to begin parliamentary deliberations that the Crown they are going to present bills to for Royal Assent has a relationship - a responsibility towards - the First Nations of this country.

[ed.: +]

Edited December 22, 2011 by g_bambino

[cybercoma]

unless there is some sort of natural disaster the government won't come and help you, or build you a new house just because you wouldn't or couldn't take care of it on your own.

That's simply not true. The situation in Wiarton wasn't some sort of natural disaster, yet the government launched an inquiry and spend millions to make sure that people would never again have drinking water that was unclean. If Wiarton was treated like Attawapiskat, the federal government would take control of the town, scrutinize their books, and tell them to just boil their water. Also, if there was a major sewage backup in any other town that caused 100s of people to be displaced from their homes, the muncipality would have to spend money on the repairs. If it happened to a community housing project the municipality and possibly the provincial government would have to spend on the repairs. They would actually divert extra money to the community.

[TimG]

If Wiarton was treated like Attawapiskat, the federal government would take control of the town, scrutinize their books, and tell them to just boil their water.

7 people died at Walkerton from tainted water ( http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/walkerton/ ). That is what created the crisis.

Boil water advisories are routinely issued to rural commuinties ( http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/protect/dwadvisories.html ) with no panic on the part of the government. A boil water advisory is NOT grounds for massive intervention on the part of the government.

Also sewer backups are largely the financial responsibility of the home owner unless the municipality is shown to be at fault. It does not automatically follow that the government would intervene even if houses are rendered unlivable. If the house was owned by the city then it would be a cost to city but the fact that all houses in Attawapiskat are considered 'social housing' is a symptom of the deeper problems - not a justification for extreme actions on the part of government.

Edited December 22, 2011 by TimG

[cybercoma]

7 people died at Walkerton from tainted water ( http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/walkerton/ ). That is what created the crisis.

Boil water advisories are routinely issued to rural commuinties ( http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/protect/dwadvisories.html ) with no panic on the part of the government. A boil water advisory is NOT grounds for massive intervention on the part of the government.

Also sewer backups are largely the financial responsibility of the home owner unless the municipality is shown to be at fault. It does not automatically follow that the government would intervene even if houses are rendered unlivable. If the house was owned by the city then it would be a cost to city but the fact that all houses in Attawapiskat are considered 'social housing' is a symptom of the deeper problems - not a justification for extreme actions on the part of government.

Of course there are many boil water advisories across Canada, but the proportion of First Nations communities affected by them is much, much greater than regular communities. Just about 1 out of every 2 Reserves in 2008 had a boil water advisory. Is a boil water advisory for every other rural community across the country even be fathomable? Kashechewan Reserve was evacuated in 2005 due to contaminated water. Luckily they were able to respond to the crisis before anyone died. These are circumstances that cost money above and beyond the general operations of a Reserve. Canadians in every other community would expect the government to respond immediately to these problems with inquiries and additional funding to correct the situation. Yet half the Reserves in Canada have to boil their water, many of them have been under this advisory for years. For more information, you can read about it here. That website has hyperlinks to the original reports, so you can see for yourself.

As far as sewer backups, you would be right if it was just a matter of a single person's house being affected. Howeer, when 100 people are evacuated from their homes, many of them living in public housing, the government would and does take responsibility for it. That's a problem with the infrastructure that the government is responsible for. Not an isolated incident of faulty plumbing in somebody's house. Moreover, if it is indeed the case that DeBeers is responsible for it (I don't know if this is true, but it has been suggested) and the government has not been enforcing environmental regulation, then it may very well be DeBeers' responsibility as well.

[prairiechickin]

What we have here, is a golden moment in Canadian history, and a real opportunity to air our grievances both Native and newbies, and decide how do we want to work this out. This tiny outpost has become a focal point for our beliefs and attitudes and its good that we talk about this. But rather than just engaging in another round of accusations and the same tired name calling, maybe we should take a good look at this particular case. If I was the King Of Canada, here's what I'd do.

First, I'd move the Army if I had to, but I'd make sure nobody was suffering. Once they were were all well fed and tucked into warm beds at night, I'd start looking for a third party accounting firm agreeable to both Band and Government, and let's have a good look at the last five years. Let's take a good look at what is spent where on what and whether its enough. Let's do the math on what it costs to maintain a reserve on the cold windy shores of James Bay, then we have a starting point for discussions. I personally would like to know what it costs to run a town of 2000 in southern Alberta, versus a town of 2000 in northern Ontario, versus a town of 2000 in outport Newfoundland. Then we'd have a starting point of discussion rather than cackling like magpies.

Once we have some sort of price fix on keeping people out in the woods, then we can decide whether its worth it. We can whine all we want about paying people to sit out there and do nothing, but what is the alternative? It would be easy if this was North Korea, we'd just load 'em on to trucks and trains and move them where we needed the labor, but this is Canada and we are way past that. The last time we tried that stunt was in outport Newfoundland in the '60s, and while you can argue either way whether that was worth the grief, I think we can all agree that the wholesale movement of Canadian citizens for any reason beyond natural catastrophe is probably a bad idea.

[prairiechickin]

I ran out of room before I ran out of story. I think we can all agree that every community in Canada should have the basics provided, but we can also agree this should be fairly standard even allowing for ice roads and air fare. And that's the standard we use to finance those people at at a reasonable standard of living for two reasons. First, that's where they're from and they obviously like it there. Second, in order to maintain any claim on Canadian soil, we have to have Canadians there. Until we can find a way to integrate Native people into Canada, we have to pay them to maintain our frontiers.

[charter.rights]

That simply isn't true, comments like yours are most often made by people who have never lived or been poor in many of Canada's non native small towns. Also, unless there is some sort of natural disaster the government won't come and help you, or build you a new house just because you wouldn't or couldn't take care of it on your own. Do you think most small towns in the country have their own hospital, or arena, or even school for that matter? No, they don't, and there are lots of small white communities with less opportunity and more poverty then Attawapiskat, just as there are many similarly sized native communities that are doing much better with the same or less. Do you think all non native Canadians everywhere live to exactly the same standards set out by the government? It makes no sense to deny the obvious, and that obviously isn't true.

You might want to learn a thing or two. The government funds disaster relief that will rebuild houses destroyed in storms or fires.

Goderich Ontario had a tornado go through last year. The Ontario Disaster Relief Fund is paying for the rebuilding of the entire town. http://www.goderich.ca/en/tornadofunding.asp

Slave Lake, Alberta had a fire this year that burned half the town down. The Alberta Sustainability Fund is paying part of the bill to rebuild the town. The federal government provides additional funds. http://www.grants-loans.org/blog/loans/slave-lake-residents-turn-to-government-for-grant-funding-after-devastating-fire/

Seems you owe cybercoma an apology.

[olp1fan]

You might want to learn a thing or two. The government funds disaster relief that will rebuild houses destroyed in storms or fires.

Goderich Ontario had a tornado go through last year. The Ontario Disaster Relief Fund is paying for the rebuilding of the entire town. http://www.goderich.ca/en/tornadofunding.asp

Check your facts Jack that was THIS year

[cybercoma]

That's beside the point.

[charter.rights]

Check your facts Jack that was THIS year

Stupid red herring.

[Bryan]

Also sewer backups are largely the financial responsibility of the home owner unless the municipality is shown to be at fault. It does not automatically follow that the government would intervene even if houses are rendered unlivable. If the house was owned by the city then it would be a cost to city but the fact that all houses in Attawapiskat are considered 'social housing' is a symptom of the deeper problems - not a justification for extreme actions on the part of government.

The big difference is if that happened to your house or mine, we'd clean it up ourselves, then see if we could get compensated down the line, usually wayyy down the line (if at all). In Attawapiskat, they just threw up a shack beside the house and waited for someone else to do it.

[NWRS]

You might want to learn a thing or two. The government funds disaster relief that will rebuild houses destroyed in storms or fires.

Goderich Ontario had a tornado go through last year. The Ontario Disaster Relief Fund is paying for the rebuilding of the entire town. http://www.goderich.ca/en/tornadofunding.asp

Slave Lake, Alberta had a fire this year that burned half the town down. The Alberta Sustainability Fund is paying part of the bill to rebuild the town. The federal government provides additional funds. http://www.grants-loans.org/blog/loans/slave-lake-residents-turn-to-government-for-grant-funding-after-devastating-fire/

Seems you owe cybercoma an apology.

]

Im sorry, with all of this news coverage i must have missed the tornado that hit attawapiskat. As others have said, there are plenty of people who live with less than these people and no reasonable expectation that the government will bail them out. Tornadoes not withstanding. Talk about a diversion...these people live in a community with better services than a lot of other small town Canadians and no amount of whining to Bob Rae is going to change it for them, at least for the non natives, that's a fact. It's also a fact that some of you are more than happy to ignore.

Edited December 23, 2011 by NWRS

[Rick]

Well one thing is clear, there's no shortage of racists and bigots posting here...

You know who you are...

[Wild Bill]

Well one thing is clear, there's no shortage of racists and bigots posting here...

You know who you are...

And we know who you are! If you can define someone as a racist or a bigot because he disagrees with you, then you must be the Pope!

Infallibility, don'tcha know!

[charter.rights]

]

...these people live in a community with better services than a lot of other small town Canadians and no amount of whining to Bob Rae is going to change it for them, at least for the non natives, that's a fact.

Another blatant lie or ignorance, both of which are equally as bad.

It is FACT that First Nations are funded 1/3 of the mainstream (including small towns). In some reserves education is funded at 50% of the mainstream, a fact that former Auditor General Sheila Fraser pointed out to the government on countless occasions in her 12 years of tenure. Underfunding and not miss-management is the problem at Attawapiskat, at least according to the most recent audits and financial statements.

Housing and social services like health, education (to grade 12)etc are fiduciary responsibilities the government cannot get out of not matter how much people like you whine. YOUR KIND of thinking is the problem. Get off your high horse and abide by the law. Your privilege has run out.

[charter.rights]

And we know who you are! If you can define someone as a racist or a bigot because he disagrees with you, then you must be the Pope!

Infallibility, don'tcha know!

I've had your number since you started posting here Bill. Funny that you don't even try to hide it anymore.

[jacee]

We came, we saw, and we conquered. That is the history of the event, however in the name of political correctness, its all OUR fault. We did not do the deed, we are getting stuck with the tab.

We didn't "conquer": We made treaties with Indigenous Nations that give us the right to live on their land in exchange for providing them with the means for stable existence. This is not "political correctness": It is the law, repeatedly upheld by our Supreme Court.

You don't show a great deal of awareness about the foundation of your own country.

Edited December 23, 2011 by jacee

[Bryan]

Well one thing is clear, there's no shortage of racists and bigots posting here...

You know who you are...

I know who the racists are. They are the ones who keep saying it's the white man's fault. Who keep saying that the natives are not capable of surviving without our help.

[cybercoma]

I know who the racists are. They are the ones who keep saying it's the white man's fault. Who keep saying that the natives are not capable of surviving without our help.

So when people say the government hasn't done enough, the government is "the white man"?

[jacee]

I know who the racists are. They are the ones who keep saying it's the white man's fault. Who keep saying that the natives are not capable of surviving without our help.

What is required is that our governments live up to our legal agreements.

Nothing more.

Except perhaps to tell Canadians the truth about what those agreements are.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

We didn't "conquer": We made treaties with Indigenous Nations that give us the right to live on their land in exchange for providing them with the means for stable existence. This is not "political correctness": It is the law, repeatedly upheld by our Supreme Court.

You don't show a great deal of awareness about the foundation of your own country.

My my, it seems there are some ruffled feathers. Oh well, thats the way it goes.

Okay we made treaties, and we exchanged government concessions for the right to occupy their former lands. By the way, what part of political correctness has us begging forgiveness for the sins of our fathers?