Time to pull provincial funding for Catholic schools?

[olp1fan]

I read an article from the Globe and Mail a few days back ..not sure if McSquinty is thinking about it but do you think its time to pull provincial funding for catholic schools?

I believe so!

There should be no funding for religious schools in a secular society

just my opinion

what is yours?

edit: I believe there are provinces who have pulled funding for Catholic schools

Edited December 11, 2011 by olp1fan

[cybercoma]

The problem is that this will close nearly half the schools in the province, no?

If the schools are necessary for effectively delivery, they should be converted over to public schools.

I agree that we shouldn't be funding schools that are particularly Catholic, although there is no separation of Church and State in Canada like there is in the US, but we need to be clear about the repercussions of doing this.

[jacee]

It will never happen because of Constitutional guarantees at the time of Confederation. Research it.

[olp1fan]

The problem is that this will close nearly half the schools in the province, no?

If the schools are necessary for effectively delivery, they should be converted over to public schools.

I agree that we shouldn't be funding schools that are particularly Catholic, although there is no separation of Church and State in Canada like there is in the US, but we need to be clear about the repercussions of doing this.

we could turn the catholic schools into public schools so there wouldn't be need to close them

[olp1fan]

It will never happen because of Constitutional guarantees at the time of Confederation. Research it.

What do you mean? Other provinces have closed their catholic schools

[Trial-and-Error]

I read an article from the Globe and Mail a few days back ..not sure if McSquinty is thinking about it but do you think its time to pull provincial funding for catholic schools?

I believe so!

There should be no funding for religious schools in a secular society

just my opinion

what is yours?

edit: I believe there are provinces who have pulled funding for Catholic schools

That is a no brainer. Not only should funding be withdrawn but all Catholic and other religious schools should be taxed for messing up the brains of their students. We're going to pay dearly down the road because of what tommyrot is being thrust into their impressionable heads. Moreover, while we're at it, all churches and properties and income of said churches should be taxed. Look at the Catholic church, for instance, they are sitting on untold wealth while millions among their flock of sheep go hungry every day. While I would never ban belief in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus or the little munchkins that live in the forest, if any group would rise up and form some kind of a congregation around their fantasy, I would not be giving them any tax breaks. So why should it be different for churches who support a fairy god?

[MiddleClassCentrist]

From an economic point of view. It costs more to run two school systems.

- Twice the beaurocracy.

- Wasted funds for infrastructure.

- School buses go to one school half full, and go to the catholic school across the street half full. This is especially a problem in rural boards where transportation is a huge money sink.

[olp1fan]

and that! no more free rides for chucches

[olp1fan]

I'd like to see Hudaks reaction if Mcguinty proposes this

It'd be like Perrys war on religion lol

[cybercoma]

That is a no brainer.

For someone with no brain it would be. What you're suggesting is that over half the schools in Ontario should close their doors. Withdrawing the funding isn't going to save you money because those students still need to go somewhere. Either the Catholic schools become public or the public schools become overcrowded.

[cybercoma]

From an economic point of view. It costs more to run two school systems.

- Twice the beaurocracy.

- Wasted funds for infrastructure.

- School buses go to one school half full, and go to the catholic school across the street half full. This is especially a problem in rural boards where transportation is a huge money sink.

Do you have any evidence to support your half-full schoolbus theory? I've never seen a bus arrive at a school half-full. Besides, the busses are not run by the schoolboard either.

It is twice the bureaucracy... possibly. Again, the Catholic boards have half the schools in Ontario. If overnight you doubled the number of schools that the public board had to oversee, you would almost certainly increase their bureaucracy, except for maybe the very top levels of the bureaucracy.

And I don't see funds being wasted on infrastructure. I've never heard anyone complain that class sizes are too small (meaning, there's a disproportionate number of classrooms vs the number of students).

Edited December 11, 2011 by cybercoma

[Trial-and-Error]

For someone with no brain it would be. What you're suggesting is that over half the schools in Ontario should close their doors. Withdrawing the funding isn't going to save you money because those students still need to go somewhere. Either the Catholic schools become public or the public schools become overcrowded.

Okay, so you didn't comprehend well what you read and yet opted to take an offensive approach in your reply. Not to worry. I obviously hit on a soft spot. Your mistake was inferring something I didn't imply. Where do I suggest that we should pull funding from religious schools to save money? The clue lies in the second half of the sentence and the sentence following. I was engaging in rhetoric, unless, of course, that is disallowed here at Maple Leaf. Over.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Do you have any evidence to support your half-full schoolbus theory? I've never seen a bus arrive at a school half-full. Besides, the busses are not run by the schoolboard either.

2. It is twice the bureaucracy... possibly. Again, the Catholic boards have half the schools in Ontario. If overnight you doubled the number of schools that the public board had to oversee, you would almost certainly increase their bureaucracy, except for maybe the very top levels of the bureaucracy.

3. And I don't see funds being wasted on infrastructure. I've never heard anyone complain that class sizes are too small (meaning, there's a disproportionate number of classrooms vs the number of students).

1. I have. Rural setting as I emphasized. School buses leave sometimes with 10 kids on them. Across the street, same. Waste of money example .

2. You end up with more super intendants, counsellors, consultants and special prinicipals. Instead of having one Spec Ed principle for the board, you have two... one in each board. etc.

3. Infrastructure - declining enrolment means that you can have two schools sitting half full, catholic and public. Instead of needing one machine shop (although catholic schools FAIL HARD in technological education) you need two. Instead of needing one autoshop, you need two. Instead of one school being heated and maintained... you see where I am going.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I'd like to add that the Catholic Education system is too restrictive on student learning because students are forced to take 4 religion credits instead of interest courses where they can find out what career they might be interested in.

The also hire unqualified technological education teachers to teach tech classes. Yes, a history major can be teaching technological design or even construction in Catholic school.

This is because they have a hard time recruiting tech people. Catholic schools only give students 8 elective credits over their entire high school career, public school students get 12. If you consider students who are aiming to take tech based degrees like computer engineering, engineering, science, etc. the real number of electives dwindles to 2 in Catholic school. They just don't have the enrolment to hire full time tech teachers because students have to take 4 religion credits. So they let unqualified people with no experience but, want a job to teach it.

Another statistic I want. Type of degrees sought from Catholic vs Public.

The system needs to go.

That being said. I am not afraid of religion in school. I personally see no reason why public schools can't offer religious instruction based on community demand. As long as the courses are optional, why not?

Edited December 12, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Evening Star]

If the schools are necessary for effectively delivery, they should be converted over to public schools.

Seems like the best approach. A lot of those Catholic schools are pretty swank too, at least in Ottawa.

I hate hate hate that Ontario still funds Catholic schools but how easy would the change be, constitutionally?

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Seems like the best approach. A lot of those Catholic schools are pretty swank too, at least in Ottawa.

I hate hate hate that Ontario still funds Catholic schools but how easy would the change be, constitutionally?

Easier than you think. The consitution does not say that their system has to be fully publicly funded. They just have a right to run their own system.

Being fully publicly funded was legislated later. It can be legistlated out, funding can be cut to that specific board, etc. Any politician going to touch it with a 100ft pole? nope. That opens the can of worms and loses elections.

The only reasons I hear people use to send their kid to Catholic School are myths. "More Structure", "Better Teachers", "Higher Success"

The reality is that Catholic schools score higher on standardized tests (on average) because they expel the bad kids out to public school...

Edited December 12, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Evening Star]

None of those are reasons to keep giving public money to Catholic schools. Reasons to raise standards in public schools? Perhaps.

[Guest Manny]

Yes, the time hass come. Convert those catholic schools into the public system. The money that is saved should be re-invested in the schools, to give the kids better quality of education.

Better for everyone, in the long run.

Those who wish it can go to private schools, and they can pray in the church.

I went to a catholic school for one year, believe me it was shocking for me. They were abusive there, teachers and students don't know how to behave. Teachers shouted, and threw things. And it was almost like, suppressing the kids made them more perverted somehow.

The priest, he gave a sermon every week. Nobody cared, complete waste of time. They didn't learn anything about the bible there that was of any use at all. And the academic part was substandard. So was he equipment, like in the workshop.

If they get the same money to run those schools, somebody is taking that money, I tell you.

[jacee]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_Twenty-nine_of_the_Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms

"Section 29 is not the source of these rights but instead reaffirms the pre-existing special rights belonging to Section 29 is not the source of these rights but nstead reaffirms the pre-existing special rights belonging to Roman Catholics and Protestants, despite despite freedom of religion and religious equality under sections 2 and 15 of the Charter. Such rights may include financial support from the provincia governments."

[Guest Manny]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_Twenty-nine_of_the_Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms

"Section 29 is not the source of these rights but instead reaffirms the pre-existing special rights belonging to Section 29 is not the source of these rights but nstead reaffirms the pre-existing special rights belonging to Roman Catholics and Protestants, despite despite freedom of religion and religious equality under sections 2 and 15 of the Charter. Such rights may include financial support from the provincia governments."

Key word, may include. Not must or shall.

[Topaz]

Since when if you are not catholic you pay for catholic schools? If you look at your propety tax bill you will see if your kids go to public school you pay public. The bus expenses are shared with the two boards and there will always be two boards until there are no more catholics to suppose the school. If its all about money you are worrried about , lets shut down ALL the schools and let the kids stay home and do all their learning from through the computer. little money needed for teachers, no buildings, no bus just parents trying to find all day sitters and computers. Is that what you want?

[Guest Manny]

Yes, but look at it this way. Every household in the province pays for schools, and it gets divided up according to the student enrolment, or whatever. But the duplication of bureaucracy is what's costing more. Even in small towns, where there's only a few schools public and catholic, there doesn't need to be twice the administration.

[Evening Star]

Topaz, don't you think it's a little unfair that only Catholics get to choose to have their tax dollars directed towards schools that cater to their own religious beliefs? Why shouldn't they have to contribute to the same public system that adherents of every other faith and non-believers have to?

[Bryan]

Catholic schools are fully private in Manitoba, and it has not been an issue. Non-catholic christian schools have been increasing in attendance, many of them doing quite well too, also with out funding.

The only kind of funding I could understand as making sense for what are otherwise private schools is if there was some sort of voucher system where a certain amount of funding follows the student, and they can go where ever they want.

[Boges]

I'd love to see McDalton do this. He'd lose the next election so badly.

BTW it's not like money that would otherwise be sent to public school is being sent to Catholic Schools. Taxpayers get to choose which system they support with their taxes.

So if no one supported the Catholic system it wouldn't be able to sustain itself.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Boges