First Nations ban pipelines to west coast

[Shwa]

Including giving us the standard of living we enjoy today, would you rather go back to the days of lords and peasants living in a shack?

Why is that the only option?

[Shwa]

Of course it's forgotten, it's pretty near cleaned up just like bp oil spill. Better than train derailments and truck accidents and leaky containers. How else do you plan on transporting oil, telepathy?

"pretty near cleaned up."

Well there was this one. Oh and this one too. Let's not forget this one. Or this one. Or this one. And of course, then there was this one.

And that was just from 2011. Do you want to know about 2010 and previous too?

Forget it, you can do your own Google search. But before you do, here is a map of the US and the Two Decades of Spills from 1990 to 2011.

I wonder how many of these are "pretty near cleaned up."

[Guest Derek L]

"pretty near cleaned up."

Well there was this one. Oh and this one too. Let's not forget this one. Or this one. Or this one. And of course, then there was this one.

And that was just from 2011. Do you want to know about 2010 and previous too?

Forget it, you can do your own Google search. But before you do, here is a map of the US and the Two Decades of Spills from 1990 to 2011.

I wonder how many of these are "pretty near cleaned up."

Does one need some Google-Fu showing the numbers of train derailments and trucking accidents annually?

[cybercoma]

Why is that the only option?

It's not. He thinks in logical fallacies though, so you get things like strawman arguments and false dichotomies.

[Shwa]

Does one need some Google-Fu showing the numbers of train derailments and trucking accidents annually?

Go for it. But if the choice is between shitty and unreliable and shittier and unreliable, well, hardly a choice innit?

[Guest Derek L]

Go for it. But if the choice is between shitty and unreliable and shittier and unreliable, well, hardly a choice innit?

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/stats/rail/2010/ss10_acc.asp

Figure 1. Figure 1 is a bar graph representing the number of rail accidents per year from 2001 to 2010.

In 2001 there were 1432 accidents.

In 2002 there were 1331 accidents.

In 2003 there were 1352 accidents.

In 2004 there were 1413 accidents.

In 2005 there were 1476 accidents.

In 2006 there were 1371 accidents.

In 2009 there were 1320 accidents.

In 2008 there were 1179 accidents.

In 2009 there were 1043 accidents.

In 2010 there were 1076 accidents.

Obviously, with an increase of rail traffic, the number will climb……The only groups that would advocate transporting further amounts of Oil & Gas by road or rail would be the railroads, teamsters and idiots……..Pipelines, statistically are the safest and most efficient option.

[blueblood]

It's not. He thinks in logical fallacies though, so you get things like strawman arguments and false dichotomies.

Its not a logical fallacy. WIthout the industrial revolution and how it proceeded, there would be no incentive to mass produce and the jobs that came with it and there would be a great deal of 1/4 section farms and it would be old mcdonald all over again. A big reason why it happened is because there was so little taxation, few regulations which meant there was a huge opportunity to make money, and as a result people became richer. ITs being done in CHina, India, Brazil, and south asia.

[fellowtraveller]

If this were true, then land claims wouldn't be settled at all. So there are two parties involved as everyone knows, would you like try and answer the question again? This time, try and make sense.

Which reminds me of the brilliance of this fellow: Carnac The Magnificent.

Eh, Johhny did it first dude.

??? There have been a bunch of land claims settled. Like, on every place that has a treaty and numerous others that did not have one. Most of those that have not settled claims have foundered on the extinguishment clause. Can't say I blame them, why give up that particualr source of gravy when the alternative is standing up on your own legs with a much flimsier safety net.

I just hope the First Nations understand they will very likely screw themselves out of a whole shitload of money and jobs with this pipeline.

It is going to be built, with or without their participation.

As stated, there are other routes with right of way that is settled and has nothing to do with First Nations.

This is the deadly economic combo that dooms so many First Nations: isolation and nothing worth developing in their tribal lands. There is a ton of tother shit too: mismanagement, paternalism from DIAND, serious social issues etc. But the firs two are ballbusters. The pipelines can help, but the First Nations involvement or permission isn't mandatory. I really hope they understand that.

[Shwa]

Its not a logical fallacy. WIthout the industrial revolution and how it proceeded, there would be no incentive to mass produce and the jobs that came with it and there would be a great deal of 1/4 section farms and it would be old mcdonald all over again. A big reason why it happened is because there was so little taxation, few regulations which meant there was a huge opportunity to make money, and as a result people became richer. ITs being done in CHina, India, Brazil, and south asia.

Without iron, there would have been no industrial age. Pay homage to the Hittites. Here is a picture of them.

Edited December 5, 2011 by Shwa

[Shwa]

There have been a bunch of land claims settled. Like, on every place that has a treaty and numerous others that did not have one. Most of those that have not settled claims have foundered on the extinguishment clause. Can't say I blame them, why give up that particualr source of gravy when the alternative is standing up on your own legs with a much flimsier safety net.

So the Indians, wishing to make a claim for specific pieces of land, are holding up the process because if they take their land back, there is some mysterious "extinguishment clause" preventing them somehow. Let us see this land claim delaying clause. I call for a cite.

I just hope the First Nations understand they will very likely screw themselves out of a whole shitload of money and jobs with this pipeline.

Meh. Maybe they prefer pristine mountains and valleys, lakes and coastlines and stuff. Can hardly blame them. Maybe they are holding out for tourism.

It is going to be built, with or without their participation. As stated, there are other routes with right of way that is settled and has nothing to do with First Nations.

I agree and I can't really understand what the hubbub is all about. Run the pipelines next to the roads, great idea. Except for cars running into them.

This is the deadly economic combo that dooms so many First Nations: isolation and nothing worth developing in their tribal lands.

You're probably right. Other that gold, copper, nickel, diamonds, gas, oil, lumber, forests, lakes mountains, valleys, etc., the land is pretty useless.

There is a ton of tother shit too: mismanagement, paternalism from DIAND, serious social issues etc. But the firs two are ballbusters. The pipelines can help, but the First Nations involvement or permission isn't mandatory. I really hope they understand that.

Are you kidding me? With all the mismanagement, paternalism and especially the serious social issues, how could they understand anything?

[Jack Weber]

Its not a logical fallacy. WIthout the industrial revolution and how it proceeded, there would be no incentive to mass produce and the jobs that came with it and there would be a great deal of 1/4 section farms and it would be old mcdonald all over again. A big reason why it happened is because there was so little taxation, few regulations which meant there was a huge opportunity to make money, and as a result people became richer. ITs being done in CHina, India, Brazil, and south asia.

Some at the top got wealther...A.G.Spalding,Andrew Carnegie...

There were also huge corruption issues,monopolies rigging the system,massive wealth disparity,diseases like ricketts (see Birmingham)no workplace safety regulations,child labour,poverty inducing wages,companies with covert police forces,amongst a whole host of other unsavoury drivel...

Yay Robber Baron Era!!!

[blueblood]

Some at the top got wealther...A.G.Spalding,Andrew Carnegie...

There were also huge corruption issues,monopolies rigging the system,massive wealth disparity,diseases like ricketts (see Birmingham)no workplace safety regulations,child labour,poverty inducing wages,companies with covert police forces,amongst a whole host of other unsavoury drivel...

Yay Robber Baron Era!!!

Ha ha.

Yay massive GDP growth, electricity, telephone, and everyone getting richer.

Your right it wasn't pleasant for some people, but you have to remember that technology was being developed and attitudes were different. Child labour still exists today, visit any farm with male children, on the tractor at 10. Cn and cp still have police forces. No guts no glory. It was either that or being peasant farmers into perpetuity, and farming in the 1600s was not a good time.

[Jack Weber]

Ha ha.

Yay massive GDP growth, electricity, telephone, and everyone getting richer.

Your right it wasn't pleasant for some people, but you have to remember that technology was being developed and attitudes were different. Child labour still exists today, visit any farm with male children, on the tractor at 10. Cn and cp still have police forces. No guts no glory. It was either that or being peasant farmers into perpetuity, and farming in the 1600s was not a good time.

Everyone getting richer???

You do realize that whatever wealth/standard of living the Middle Class got over the last 100 years,or at least until 1979,was NOT because of the benevolence of those you seem to worship,but because they had pry it out of people you worship's greedy hands???

You do realize this,right?

[blueblood]

Everyone getting richer???

You do realize that whatever wealth/standard of living the Middle Class got over the last 100 years,or at least until 1979,was NOT because of the benevolence of those you seem to worship,but because they had pry it out of people you worship's greedy hands???

You do realize this,right?

Nope.

And that prying out of the business men's hands resulted in massive investments overseas. The manufacturing sector got out bid.

Sometimes medicine tastes bad but you have to swallow it.

[Jack Weber]

Nope.

And that prying out of the business men's hands resulted in massive investments overseas. The manufacturing sector got out bid.

Sometimes medicine tastes bad but you have to swallow it.

Really??

The rising level of the standard of living throught 2/3rds of the 20th century was because of massive overseas investment???

[fellowtraveller]

You do realize this,right?

Ever check tables for life expectancy, child mortality, average size of humans in the last 100 years?

The Middle Class barely existed 100 years ago.

[fellowtraveller]

So the Indians, wishing to make a claim for specific pieces of land, are holding up the process because if they take their land back, there is some mysterious "extinguishment clause" preventing them somehow. Let us see this land claim delaying clause. I call for a cite.

I guess you haven't been following events for the last half century or so. Here is a tip: sometimes people in negotiations don't want a result, because qany result gets them in worse shape than they are now. Oh, and I am not your Google bitch, look it up yourself, the extinguishment issue has been around forever.

Quote

I just hope the First Nations understand they will very likely screw themselves out of a whole shitload of money and jobs with this pipeline.

Meh. Maybe they prefer pristine mountains and valleys, lakes and coastlines and stuff. Can hardly blame them. Maybe they are holding out for tourism.

Hard to say, ask them

It is going to be built, with or without their participation. As stated, there are other routes with right of way that is settled and has nothing to do with First Nations.

I agree and I can't really understand what the hubbub is all about. Run the pipelines next to the roads, great idea.

Except for cars running into them.

Are those the dangerous underground cars?

Quote

This is the deadly economic combo that dooms so many First Nations: isolation and nothing worth developing in their tribal lands.

You're probably right. Other that gold, copper, nickel, diamonds, gas, oil, lumber, forests, lakes mountains, valleys, etc., the land is pretty useless.

If only that were true. Don;t forget 'the fat of the land'.

Quote

[blueblood]

Really??

The rising level of the standard of living throught 2/3rds of the 20th century was because of massive overseas investment???

That would be the decline of the last 1/3 of the century when the cost of production overseas became more competitive than over here. It's been a new game since japan rose, moreso with the rest of Asia.

The first 2/3, north America had the advantage of Europe devastated by war, china under a nut bar, Japan still cleaning up, south america in constant strife. North America was the only game in town.

It's interesting to note that under a more capitalist model Argentina was one of the richest countries in the world in the late 1800s, a military coup and a war on poverty put a kibosh on that.

[Shwa]

I guess you haven't been following events for the last half century or so. Here is a tip: sometimes people in negotiations don't want a result, because qany result gets them in worse shape than they are now. Oh, and I am not your Google bitch, look it up yourself, the extinguishment issue has been around forever.

I searched Google and couldn't find anything, so I'll ask you once more to back up your claims with a citation please.

Thanks!

[cybercoma]

I think some of you are completely oblivious to the fact that the First Nations aren't just given handouts. Everything that you get as a Canadian citizen from your municipal, provincial and federal government is covered entirely by the federal government for the First Nations. These aren't handouts any more than everyone else's housing, education, healthcare, sewage, water treatment, etc. are handouts.

[Smallc]

Well, the difference is that we all pay taxes towards those services, and that's why we may get more in total. Yes, I know, that's the way things work under the law, but it's still the reality.

Also, you keep leaving out the fact that aboriginal people get the money for their community from Ottawa, but still get the same federal services as everyone else. They also benefit from many provincial services, since health services are a shared responsibility. It isn't as simply as you're making it out.

[charter.rights]

Well, the difference is that we all pay taxes towards those services, and that's why we may get more in total. Yes, I know, that's the way things work under the law, but it's still the reality.

Also, you keep leaving out the fact that aboriginal people get the money for their community from Ottawa, but still get the same federal services as everyone else. They also benefit from many provincial services, since health services are a shared responsibility. It isn't as simply as you're making it out.

The reality is Aboriginal people pay as much in taxes as the rest of us. The overall unemployment rate of Aboriginal people is less than the Newfoundland rate. As well Aboriginal businesses pay into the tax base and the economy as much as our businesses do. Aboriginal corporations are not tax free even when located on reserve. One company, Grand River Enterprises at Six Nations paid $150 million in excise taxes alone. That also means of course their gross revenues were about $15 billion, most of which is spent in and around Southern Ontario.

[cybercoma]

We all pay taxes do we?

That's not even remotely close to being the truth.

And it's also not the case that none of the Natives pay taxes.

[Smallc]

We don't all pay taxes, but there are far more people paying taxes. I'm sorry, but like I said, you two obviously don't have actual experience with the situation on most reserves.

[charter.rights]

We don't all pay taxes, but there are far more people paying taxes. I'm sorry, but like I said, you two obviously don't have actual experience with the situation on most reserves.

I work with First Nation business every day. I also sit on a number of financial boards with First Nation business owners.

You don't know squat.

Aboriginal people pay as much in taxes as we all do.