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For Conservatives, contrary positions are treasonous


Shwa

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If we had the money in Canada, we would have been able to buy potashcorp and not have to have gov't intervention. 2 refineries would be what the stimulus was and would have not employed as much people as this one is trying to do. The nuke power plants were cheaper back in the day, less red tape, and govts willing to go into deficit to pay for it.

What makes you think we don't have the money? Because we didn't buy postashcorp or build a refinery already?

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We have the coin. We spend billions on stimulus and a refinery in Canada is one stimulus I think we could afford. If we can build nuclear poewr stations, we can build a refinery.

Aswell Canadians would see a saving whenever they visit the pump!

Theoretically anyways

WWWTT

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Because we're in a deficit and have a massive debt burden while other European countries are currently in a death spiral of socialist debt?

Thanks to the CPC and their tens of billions in stimulus money they keep handing out every year for their socialist work programs and corporate welfare, not mention them bloating the bureaucracy. Again.

No, we have the money to build a refinery. If we need some extra, we can borrow from China.

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Thanks to the CPC and their tens of billions in stimulus money they keep handing out every year for their socialist work programs and corporate welfare, not mention them bloating the bureaucracy. Again.

No, we have the money to build a refinery. If we need some extra, we can borrow from China.

Absolutely we could build one....

The question is,"Does the oil soaked cabal of money grubbing scum want one?"...

Refining capacity will undoubtedly bring more product on stream.This will undoubtedly lower prices,particularily at the pump (amongst other areas)...Less refining capacity means less product availability while demand either stays the same or increases.Remember,Petro-Canada used to have a viable refinery in Oakville,Ontario.They did'nt destroy it,they simply dismantled it and sold it to an offshore concern that rebuilt the same refinery with most of the same parts in Pakistan!!!Then the same oil soaked cabal of money grubbing scum has the audacity to claim refining capacity as an issue in it's gas prices (and other petroleum products)...

Keep in mind who's in power in Ottawa and where that economic power base of that party is located...

Edited by Jack Weber
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Absolutely we could build one....

The Keystone Pipeline is owned by TCPL, not the government of Canada. If TCPL wants to build a pipeline, they can, because Canada is a free country.

Can "we" build one? If you mean the GOC, we sold of Petro Canada years ago. Even if we hadn't, what would the purpose be to build one? You couldn't put it in TCPL's pipeline because it's carrying something else.

The pipeline creates a market that would otherwise not be there. Since the GOC makes money from royalties based on volume, the more that travels south, the more Canada makes.

As far as "who's in Ottawa" is concerned, it wouldn't make any difference if the Liberals or Tory's were in power. I'm sure the NDP would like to kick out all of the oil companies and turn Canada into a socialist nation, but that's not going to happen.

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that struck me as extremly stupid as well...once the pipeline is built the jobs are gone...refine the product here and the jobs stay here...conservatives arent the smart fiscal planners they think they are...

There's been a massive shortage of diesel fuel from Manitoba through B.C. for the past number of weeks due to a lack of refining and at times crippling the transportation sector when trucks are stuck waiting for fuel to be delivered so they can get moving... One refinery goes down and we're screwed yet Conservatives think the best way is to build a pipeline to send all of our oil down so Uncle Sam can refine it and sell it back to us at an inflated price...

:rolleyes:

Edited by Rick
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Was it the same? I don't remember the incident mentioned. I've never seen or heard Fox News.

From what has been posted in this thread, it's not clear about the circumstances. If Harper deliberately went to an American function to get on the American media to voice disagreement with the ruling party, then I would have been against that too!

However, if he was simply accosted in some media scrum HERE IN CANADA and asked his opinion then I would agree that he had the right to express it.

I guess the important difference to me would be if his expression was a deliberate act to use foreign media as a tool to embarrass the ruling Liberals at the time, actually going to an American site to do it or if it was a simple response to a reporter's question in some domestic situation.

Since I don't know then I can't say if I disapprove. However, this puts me above those who simply don't care if there is any difference at all - they just hate Harper so anything he does is wrong and anything the Opposition does is ok!

Me thinks you're either being disingenuous or simply lying if you say you can't remember this...

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20030404/harper_fox_interview_030404/

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No it isn't.

What part of being self sufficient and keeping jobs in this country don't you agree with?

It simply isn't plausible to export refined petroleum products all over the continent from one location.

The number of tanker trucks and/or pipelines required to do what you suggest is completely beyond the realm of possibility.

Do you have any idea how many different products are produced in the refining process?

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Me thinks you're either being disingenuous or simply lying if you say you can't remember this...

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20030404/harper_fox_interview_030404/

No, I truly don't remember this! 2003 was a while ago and I've had a few things on my mind since.

That being said, after having read the article I believe that Harper was equally wrong to air Canada's dirty laundry on a foreign news channel while he was in Opposition!

Some things I agree with and some things I don't. As I have said many times on this forum, I support the present CPC not because I blindly agree with everything they day and do but simply because to me they stink less than the other parties!

Reform was the only party that ever matched my own values closely, with only a few exceptions. Since they've left the picture, I've been left with slim pickings indeed.

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It simply isn't plausible to export refined petroleum products all over the continent from one location.

The number of tanker trucks and/or pipelines required to do what you suggest is completely beyond the realm of possibility.

Do you have any idea how many different products are produced in the refining process?

Who cares...

The point you seem to be missing (conveniently perhaps?) is we should be refining our own products here instead of piping it down there to be done and then shipped back here how???

Why do you oppose CANADIANS building and operating our own refineries and ongoing jobs....

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The point you seem to be missing (conveniently perhaps?) is we should be refining our own products here instead of piping it down there to be done and then shipped back here how???

I'm not sure what part of Canada you're in, but I can assure you that where I am, we're not buying refined petroleum products back from the states in any meaningful volume. Refining is an industry that is best done locally.

Why do you oppose CANADIANS building and operating our own refineries and ongoing jobs....

I don't. Actually, I'm one of those CANADIANS that works IN these refineries and upgraders. The fact of the matter is that it is simply not practical (or even desirable) to refine all of our own product here!

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I'm not sure what part of Canada you're in, but I can assure you that where I am, we're not buying refined petroleum products back from the states in any meaningful volume. Refining is an industry that is best done locally.

I don't. Actually, I'm one of those CANADIANS that works IN these refineries and upgraders. The fact of the matter is that it is simply not practical (or even desirable) to refine all of our own product here!

Right, it's better to have diesel shortages, trucks sitting crippling the economy and a lack of supply raising the prices according to your logic... :rolleyes:

We don't have the refining capability now....

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SF/PF I am curious about your logic in it not being feasible to refine our own bitumen here in Canada. I get that a lot of different products are created out of the process. And I get that it would take a vast network of infrastructure in order to transport the refined goods across the world.

However, what I do not get is why it is impossible for us to do it but it's not impossible for the country who is going to receive the bitumen. Sure the US may have the existing refineries to take in the extracted bitumen and refine it into the various petroleum products consumed all around the world and distribute them but why not with some real investment and leadership (including from the PMO) can't Canada be bold and develop the infrastructure required and do it ourselves end-to-end?

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Right, it's better to have diesel shortages, trucks sitting crippling the economy and a lack of supply raising the prices according to your logic... :rolleyes:

We don't have the refining capability now....

Whether or not our refining capability is sufficient is an unrelated question.

There certainly have been recent cases in which an unexpected shutdown or outage has resulted in fuel shortages. But what company is going to invest billions to increase capacity simply to smooth out those instances?

Either the refinery is going to let that excess capacity sit idle most of the time (at a HUGE cost), or its going to flood the market with the excess capacity and drive down prices. But note, the prices that will be driven down are the prices for the refined products. The feedstock (oil) will increase in price due to the increased demand!

Try selling that to Big Oil!

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SF/PF I am curious about your logic in it not being feasible to refine our own bitumen here in Canada. I get that a lot of different products are created out of the process. And I get that it would take a vast network of infrastructure in order to transport the refined goods across the world.

However, what I do not get is why it is impossible for us to do it but it's not impossible for the country who is going to receive the bitumen. Sure the US may have the existing refineries to take in the extracted bitumen and refine it into the various petroleum products consumed all around the world and distribute them but why not with some real investment and leadership (including from the PMO) can't Canada be bold and develop the infrastructure required and do it ourselves end-to-end?

The same reason car factories are near population centers and not near iron ore mines.

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However, what I do not get is why it is impossible for us to do it but it's not impossible for the country who is going to receive the bitumen. Sure the US may have the existing refineries to take in the extracted bitumen and refine it into the various petroleum products consumed all around the world and distribute them but why not with some real investment and leadership (including from the PMO) can't Canada be bold and develop the infrastructure required and do it ourselves end-to-end?

Any geographical area with a substantial amount of refining capacity also has fairly substantial petro-chemical industries tied to that refining capacity. For example, anyone that has ever been to Edmonton will notice that the plants that produce plastics, ashphalt shingles, insulation, polymer products, and gasses such as oxygen and nitrogen are all located near the refineries on the east side of the city.

If you head out of Edmonton to the northeast, you'll notice that the plants out that way are mostly tied to the same geographic area, or the "Industrial Heartland" as they call it.

I've never been to Sarnia, but I hear it isn't any different.

That isn't a coincidence. These plants all depend on the products produced in the nearby refineries.

The thing is, the areas of the states that we're looking at shipping to already have these industries in place. Companies are not willing to mothball the refineries and petro-chemical plants that they already own just so they can build new ones up here, and then have the problem of trying to distribute all of the products to wherever they need to go.

I guess ultimatly what I'm saying is that the capital required to relocate all of these industries and then distribute the products is absolutely astronomical.

-------------------------

I also want to clarify one point, since there seems to be some confusion. I'm not proposing that we export raw bitumen. That would absolutely be devastating to Canadian workers.

I think some of the confusion stems from the revisionist terminology in the "oilsands." The oilsands aren't oil at all, they're really more like tar. The stuff that we extract from the ground (whether through open mining or through in situ techniques like SAGD) is not oil for the most part, but a substance known as bitumen.

Before bitumen can be refined to products such as gasoline or diesel, it needs to be "upgraded" to synthetic crude. This isn't a particularly difficult or involved process (today), but it does require a large amount of infrastructure to do.

I advocate upgrading our own bitumen, and then exporting the synthetic crude to existing refineries for refining. Upgrading makes up probably about half of the work required to convert the tarsands to refined products. So what I'm proposing isn't the export of raw materials.

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I think that would be an extra handling cost that would end up making the oil more expensive. Better to one stop shop.

Not really. The bitumen needs to upgraded before it can be refined into anything useful anyway. Also, bitumen needs to be diluted in order for it to move in a pipeline; on a good day, bitumen is basically tar. Of course, after the "dilbit" reaches its destination in the US, the diluent will be seperated from the bitumen and then put back in another pipeline to come back!

So, the bitumen needs to be upgraded prior to refining anyway, and synthetic crude is a heck of a lot easier to export than bitumen.

Also, Canada isn't unreasonable to expect that Canadians should benefit from their raw resources. ;)

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Not really. The bitumen needs to upgraded before it can be refined into anything useful anyway. Also, bitumen needs to be diluted in order for it to move in a pipeline; on a good day, bitumen is basically tar. Of course, after the "dilbit" reaches its destination in the US, the diluent will be seperated from the bitumen and then put back in another pipeline to come back!

So, the bitumen needs to be upgraded prior to refining anyway, and synthetic crude is a heck of a lot easier to export than bitumen.

Also, Canada isn't unreasonable to expect that Canadians should benefit from their raw resources. ;)

If it was more cost effective to send synthetic cruse down there, it would be done already. It must have penciled out to send the diluted tar down the pipe and do everything in one shot down there.

What will be interesting is if they send that upgraded tar straight to china or will they have to make synthetic crude...

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If it was more cost effective to send synthetic cruse down there, it would be done already. It must have penciled out to send the diluted tar down the pipe and do everything in one shot down there.

Perhaps. But, to be frank, I don't give a damn about whether they can save a few pennies doing in that way or not. Alberta needs to move beyond third world style resource exports at some point. It may as well be sooner rather than later.

Its a moot point anyway, we sacrificed control of our raw resources years ago on the altar of free trade.

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