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does decriminalization of drugs work?


bud

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No, you pick one, since you are the one saying that the current approach isn't working. If you choose to measure our approach against, say, the Portugese, then that leads back to my question about the applicability of the Portugese model and the underlying issues they started with in the first place.

You're missing the point. No one is suggesting adopting the Portuguese model wholesale. But it's worth looking at other juridstictions who've experimented with these types of policies to see what lessons can be learned and applied here.

Unless you think the current drug policies are working. Because if you measure it by availability of drugs, their usage and the costs of related social issues, they sure aren't.

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Some of the very rich with great influence and power - really like the idea of us being drunk on Friday and or doped up...or having lots of mindless sex - it creates a slave like population to sick and tired to resist oppression and usery....take all the dope and booze you want - and make a sinister bastard in some bank tower proud.

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i've actually looked into china's policies and it's a failing system. furthermore, portugal's population is 10.5 million. 1/3 of canada's. whereas india's and china's populations are over a billion. socially and economically, portugal can be compared to canada, whereas china and india cannot be. so i'm not sure where you're trying to go with your comments.

Portugal has less population that Ontario in a land mass 1/10th the size so it is comparable to Southern Ontario at best. Then there are other social and cultural aspects that exist in Portugal that don't here, visa versa, etc. The point being bud is that we can't simply cherry pick general examples in isolation of everything else, especially with a culture that is much different from ours. In that case our best guess might be a better solution, which seems to be what we are doing now, collectively.

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You're missing the point. No one is suggesting adopting the Portuguese model wholesale. But it's worth looking at other juridstictions who've experimented with these types of policies to see what lessons can be learned and applied here.

Unless you think the current drug policies are working. Because if you measure it by availability of drugs, their usage and the costs of related social issues, they sure aren't.

I agree, but let's see some other jusrisdictions. All I am seeing is Portugal. The value of the discussion increases with more examples, policies, etc.

Do I think the drug policies are working... hmmm good question. I think there could be a level of deciminalization for so-called 'soft-drugs' in conjunction with a massive education campaign about the problems of drug and alcohol consumption. And an increase in the severity for under-the-influence type infractions.

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I agree, but let's see some other jusrisdictions. All I am seeing is Portugal. The value of the discussion increases with more examples, policies, etc.

It's a starting point for discussion, if nothing else. Were you expecting a white paper?

Do I think the drug policies are working... hmmm good question. I think there could be a level of deciminalization for so-called 'soft-drugs' in conjunction with a massive education campaign about the problems of drug and alcohol consumption. And an increase in the severity for under-the-influence type infractions.

Okay: can you cite some examples of those policies in action that others can dismiss out of hand? :P

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It's a starting point for discussion, if nothing else. Were you expecting a white paper?

Did my response to the OP make it seem like I wanted a white paper? You know, asking questions about the differences between Portugal and Canada. :D

Okay: can you cite some examples of those policies in action that others can dismiss out of hand?

You want me to cite make-believe policy? Sure, here's one:

Don't follow Portugal's example. :D

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Portugal has less population that Ontario in a land mass 1/10th the size so it is comparable to Southern Ontario at best. Then there are other social and cultural aspects that exist in Portugal that don't here, visa versa, etc. The point being bud is that we can't simply cherry pick general examples in isolation of everything else, especially with a culture that is much different from ours. In that case our best guess might be a better solution, which seems to be what we are doing now, collectively.

i'd disagree that our cultures are 'much' different. it's not like i'm comparing china to canada or india to canada. i've been to portugal many times and i think it's a valid comparison.

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Did my response to the OP make it seem like I wanted a white paper? You know, asking questions about the differences between Portugal and Canada. :D

Um, you accused the OP of "cherry picking" and had a generally inquisitorial tone that didn't suggest someone open to exploring options.

You want me to cite make-believe policy? Sure, here's one:

Don't follow Portugal's example. :D

I think adopting the successful policies of another jurisdiction would be far more justifiable than trying out ones that have never been adopted.

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i'd disagree that our cultures are 'much' different. it's not like i'm comparing china to canada or india to canada. i've been to portugal many times and i think it's a valid comparison.

My brother-in-law is Portugese. His parents live in Portugal and they live quite differently than we do. They don't have the USA 45 miles away for example. And they drink alot.

In what ways are they the "same" that would make apt comparisons between cultures for the purposes of evaluating their policies against ours? I mean, is an addict and addict and addict?

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Um, you accused the OP of "cherry picking" and had a generally inquisitorial tone that didn't suggest someone open to exploring options.

Meh, "tone" is your problem not mine.

I think adopting the successful policies of another jurisdiction would be far more justifiable than trying out ones that have never been adopted.

I dunno. Seems kind of lazy and dangerous to me. Although, if we can find some sort of common ground where like-policies would apply, it is worth exploring. For example, Portugal has set up safe injection sites, but those seem to be Dutch and Swiss programs, at least in the modern sense. And medically supervised sites seems to show Oz and Canada in the forefront. Someone had to adopt them to start it out.

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Why should we - because statistics on a foreign country say it works for them? What I am getting at is that there are significant cultural, political and environmental differences between Canada/US and Portugal. Who's to say that implementing programs like theirs is going to have any effect on our society at all? Or that it won't result in disaster?

I believe the similarities far outway the differences.

Aswell I believe it is fair to say that there are greater differences within Canada and between Canada and the U.S. you are not addressing.

Just because many of us watch "Family Guy" on TV doesn't mean we have the same culture as the US.

WWWTT

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Why should we - because statistics on a foreign country say it works for them? What I am getting at is that there are significant cultural, political and environmental differences between Canada/US and Portugal.

Are you sugesting that the politics in Canada and the US actually creates addicts?

Or the environment(weather and climate)can somehow affect humans to be more susceptible to an addiction?

WWWTT

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You can fit 10 Portugals in Ontario and Portugal has less people than the province.

I am all for a movement towards decriminalization, but there is no requirement to do it like Portugal. Have you also examined the statistics for China, India and the Faroe Islands? It seems like you are cherry picking here.

Are you suggesting that the size of a country and its population can affect the human in how it deals with addiction(making the mind more or less prone to this disease)?

Looking at how other countries deal with problems is a good thing,but when someone is successful then you must pay attention if you are serious in addressing this issue.

WWWTT

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There are other examples, besides the obvious and one that is rarely if ever mentioned is the so-called "summer of legalization' in Ontario. It was, I believe in 2003 when pot laws were temporarily suspended.

http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2003/2003canlii45115/2003canlii45115.pdf

The events that followed have not been taken up by cannabis activists as part of their casus belli. i say they are neglecting themselves a good argument for simple fact that- nothing happened. Although, people DID smoke marijuana openly in public places in the streets of Toronto, and in rooftop cafes and parks. There was no increase in crime, there was no increase in street violence or car accidents. nothing happened, and nothing evil was reported.

Some time thereafter we all know what happened, the government took steps to force the courts to re-enact the pot laws, arrests started up again, and people went back to hiding their smoking habits out of view. Criminal gangs again did a brisk business, their substantial profits going to places unknown but one can only assume, upwards.

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There's a select group of people who are so addicted to their drug, be it, smokes, alcohol or drugs, they they can't ever get off even if they go to a rehab and get clean only to fall back into their addiction once back in their own and these people usually will end up dead from their habit. If anything, I think the government should ban tobacco, stronger laws on alcohol and do a better job of stopping drugs coming into this country.

Wow. You say that like it might actually do some good.

Before we even consider ratcheting up prohibition, why don't you dig up some actual evidence that the existing money that is being spent on policing, court costs and jails is doing any good? People seem to be under some magical belief that prohibition lowers the number of addicts. I've never seen a shred of evidence to support this. Maybe you can dig some up before you advocate jailing a bunch more people and wasting another billion dollars.

Meanwhile, Insite was being kept open because there is excellent evidence that having addicts in touch with supportive counselors instead of shit-kicking cops increases the odds they will get into a program.

Prohibition laws hurt addicts and enrich organized crime. Take a lesson from the alcohol prohibition days:

Prohibition did little to curb liquor consumption, particularly among young people. Moreover, as otherwise law-abiding citizens were suddenly deemed criminals, the resulting hypocrisy significantly undermined respect for authority.
Like the bootleggers of old, today's international cartels reap untold billions of dollars from the drug war, and they aren't afraid to kill to protect profits or expand markets. After alcohol prohibition took effect, the homicide rate skyrocketed by 78 percent. Nearly a century later, 4,323 U.S. homicides between 2005 and 2009 have been directly traced to the illegal drug trade — more than the number of Americans killed on 9/11 or in combat in Iraq. Even this figure pales in comparison to the 40,000 murders in Mexico since 2006 that are directly related to the illegal drug market.

Link to Story

Even some police have seen the light.

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So, how effective is prohibition? Not very.

A recent study by the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse at Columbia University has some startling results about teens and drugs. In their study, they found that 40 percent of teens could get marijuana within a day; another quarter said they could get it within an hour. In another portion of the survey, teens between the ages of 12 and 17 say it’s easier to get marijuana than buy cigarettes, beer or prescription drugs. That number is up 37 percent from 2007.

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Under regulation, people who sell beer and cigarettes have a disincentive to sell to kids. Not so with drugs that are illegal anyway.

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i've been to portugal many times and i think it's a valid comparison.

I don't believe this for a second. And even if you're telling the truth, you certainly don't have the wherewithal to really learn about and understand a foreign culture even if it's right under your nose.

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No, but many Americans use Canadian illicit drugs. Prohibition in Canada does not equal prohibition in the US, even for druggies.

I don't understand,why do you call someone who smokes pot(I assume this) a druggie?

Fact-alcohol is a drug!

Fact-caffeine is a drug!

Is someone who drinks a cup of joe every morning a druggie?

Is smoking a joint more or less harmfull than a shot of whisky?

Let me make something clear,I do not drink alcohol or coffee,smoke pot,snort cocaine or herion or mushrooms,etc,etc.Aswell I am aware of what I ingest and prefer a home cooked healthy diet with a preference to my own backyard grown produce and fish I have caught in clear waters!And regular excersise!

However I will not judge someone who desides to live the life they may choose,or ingest what they may choose!

But if you choose to be harmfull to your body,this does affect everyone who contributes into a public health care system.

And if prohibition does not work then why is health taking a back seat to some kind of moral agenda being driven by the conservatives with Harper at the healm?

WWWTT

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I don't understand,why do you call someone who smokes pot(I assume this) a druggie?

Your assumptions are your own liability, not mine.

Is someone who drinks a cup of joe every morning a druggie?

No...coffee is quite legal to consume.

Is smoking a joint more or less harmfull than a shot of whisky?

Where did the pot come from...the liquor store?

Let me make something clear,I do not drink alcohol or coffee,smoke pot,snort cocaine or herion or mushrooms,etc,etc.Aswell I am aware of what I ingest and prefer a home cooked healthy diet with a preference to my own backyard grown produce and fish I have caught in clear waters!And regular excersise!

Yawn....

However I will not judge someone who desides to live the life they may choose,or ingest what they may choose!

I will...we have always called them druggies, potheads, dopers, junkies, etc. Great fun.

But if you choose to be harmfull to your body,this does affect everyone who contributes into a public health care system.

I don't care either way...druggies are just a general pain in the ass all the way around.

And if prohibition does not work then why is health taking a back seat to some kind of moral agenda being driven by the conservatives with Harper at the healm?

Beats me...pot was banned in Canada by the Liberal Party IIRC.

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