Oleg Bach Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Have we exhausted the topic of faith & reason then ? That's reasonable to say - and I have faith in your good judgement. Issues such as these have been in a constant state of debate since the begining of civilization and never fully resolved - it's called a mystery - like life after death - or death after death -No one has ever reported back from the great beyond - with the answer....it was a good chat though and may have shown that faith at times can be based in knowledge and reasonablity. That reasoning to the extreme without prejudice touches the bounds of faith...any way - it was all done in good faith - Thank you Michael ....never knew you had a logical spiritual streak in you. * Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Have we exhausted the topic of faith & reason then ? Yes, about three hundred years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Yes, about three hundred years ago. AND three hundred years into the future.. what was nice is that no war was started during this little chat concerning faith in reason and reason in faith...all is well that ends well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Have we exhausted the topic of faith & reason then ? Not quite. The point was almost raised, before I was distracted that it is not necessary to consider Faith and Reason as two irreconcilable things. If one expands the concept of faith to include intuition, or metaphysics, then look to different eras of human history, the renaissance, we see what the human is capable of, when we embrace the totality of our being. As a cultural movement, it encompassed a flowering of literature, science, art, religion, and politics, and a resurgence of learning based on classical sources, the development of linear perspective in painting, and gradual but widespread educational reform. Although the Renaissance saw revolutions in many intellectual pursuits, as well as social and political upheaval, it is perhaps best known for its artistic developments and the contributions of such polymaths as Leonardo da Vinci and Michelangelo... Because without the dream, there is no seed for the new idea. We must cross the bridge that separates right brain/ left brain thinking. For just as our brain is separated into two hemispheres, so too is our world. It's only when we admit to ourselves what we are naturally, and find a means to resolve this conflict, that meaningful progress will be made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 The cosmic dream - the devine vision...inspiration does not come from reason - by it's very nature great things are totally unreasonable and faith driven, All great works of art are and always will be driven by the intangable thing called faith...it's a cosmic decision to produce something oringal - it is creation and the creative process....when a great jazz or blues player - or a violist go into "the zone" - they black out...and in comes the most heavenly solos ever heard...you become just an antenna - a tool...logic is left behind and you go into the realm of greatness...What is this phenomena when an artist goes beyond his own logical capablities and touches the devine? It defys reason..but if you have faith it comes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Because without the dream, there is no seed for the new idea. We must cross the bridge that separates right brain/ left brain thinking. For just as our brain is separated into two hemispheres, so too is our world. It's only when we admit to ourselves what we are naturally, and find a means to resolve this conflict, that meaningful progress will be made. Interesting - so is faith 'left brain' thinking ? I have said here that I think it's belief in people versus belief in my own ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Interesting - so is faith 'left brain' thinking ? I have said here that I think it's belief in people versus belief in my own ideas. You are educated - you don't have your own ideas - well maybe one or two that you got by accident. Right there you get into the science of things - "left brain" thinking...perhaps faith is the middle brain thinking - or the no brain thinking - the cosmic brain that does not exist with in the head - but is outside the scull? Faith has no substance - no material value...it is above and beyond thinking...real faith is like a blank slate - that thinking and religous doctrine can not mark....it's an empty thought..based in absoute knowledge that after all is said and done - we know nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) Religion doesn't work because it is man made - God did not talk to the Pope to bless him Everything man touches is destroyed or will eventually be destroyed I believe in a higher power because when there are too many coincidences that means it is not coincidental like how far the sun is from the earth...its just in the right spot... the never ending universe photosynthesis.. animals, humans But I also believe we have evolved from what the higher power produced us from the first time and he controlled the evolution Does that make sense to any of you? One thing I don't believe in though is Heaven or Hell..that is just to make us be good while we're on earth When we die I just think we no longer exist..except in the memories of our loved ones until they all die and therefore we are gone forever I spent most of my life as a Jehovahs Witness and found it to be a crock of sh!t I find all religion to be bullsh!t I don't need God in my life to be a good person Edited October 14, 2011 by olp1fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 Religion doesn't work because it is man made - God did not talk to the Pope to bless him How do you know? Everything man touches is destroyed or will eventually be destroyed Everything ends. The universe is ruled by entropy. All systems wind down. I believe in a higher power because when there are too many coincidences that means it is not coincidental like how far the sun is from the earth... Are you saying that life can't exist in other environments? its just in the right spot... For the life that evolved here. That gives us a sample size of 1, trying to make bold declarations about how all life elsewhere must be bound by what happened here seems premature, no? the never ending universe Maybe it won't have an end, but the heat death as the entire show enters thermodynamic equilibrium doesn't exactly some like a wondrous kind of infinity. photosynthesis.. animals, humans Again, a sample size of 1. Wake me up when we've looked at some other worlds with life, then we can start making some intelligent, educated guesses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted October 14, 2011 Report Share Posted October 14, 2011 How do you know? because im not a nut? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 The Chinese would be interested to find out how a culture that came into existence when Chinese civilization was already pretty damned old civilized them. As would the Egyptians, who the Greeks had an absolute fetish for. The spoiled Greeks like the company of pretty boys and girls - but they were not homo-sexuals as some like to perpetuate - the Greeks did not take it up the ass..."For that would be to much like being a woman" - Greeks held females in contempt and any mimicing of females would be a down grade in their books - unlike our society where men mimic woman in order to gain female privledge and protection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 because im not a nut? That's an act of faith, not reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 That's an act of faith, not reason. It was an act of faith..that won the second world war...REASON - was encapsulated in the address of Chamberland regarding the Nazi threat - that he found Hitler "reasonable" - Faith dictated that victory must be attained - It was the faith that the allies had - that won the war - The Germans had a "reasonable" faith in Hitler - The allies had faith in GOD..who as we found in the end - was the superiour power - that goodness prevailed over evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 It was an act of faith..that won the second world war...REASON - was encapsulated in the address of Chamberland regarding the Nazi threat - that he found Hitler "reasonable" - Faith dictated that victory must be attained - It was the faith that the allies had - that won the war - The Germans had a "reasonable" faith in Hitler - The allies had faith in GOD..who as we found in the end - was the superiour power - that goodness prevailed over evil. God has nothing to do with the outcomes of anything on Earth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 (edited) double post Edited October 15, 2011 by olp1fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 God has nothing to do with the outcomes of anything on Earth How do you know that? Did you settle on a definition of "God" and then refute yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Did betsy quit the forum? haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 How do you know that? Did you settle on a definition of "God" and then refute yourself? if he did kids wouldnt die of starvation in poor countries in the world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 if he did kids wouldnt die of starvation in poor countries in the world You are presuming you know God's will, God's plan, and if there is any consistency in religion and its high priests of whatever cult or group it is that we cannot know all of God's plan. Presuming, of course, there is a God. I think people originally developed the concept of God as a means of trying to reason out how the world came into being, how they came into being. There were more ideas about who and what God was, and what they planned than anyone here can possibly consider. For some reason, humans need to know how the world, the universe, and in particular, themselves came into being, and where they are all meant to be going. And people, however rational, have always been able to convince themselves of the truth of a thing they desperately wanted to believe. Once the concept became fleshed out, then Faith came into play. Fathers taught sons, and sons must have faith, even as they tried to understand why the world was sometimes good, and sometimes horrible. What does death mean? Why did that father I loved so much simply lay down and rise no more? Why does everyone do the same, eventually? These are difficult questions for ancient man, and they used faith to explain death, and to protect themselves from it. For most religions I'm aware of have a life after death, and so tell people that their existence does not come to an abrupt end after all. People of all ages wanted and needed to have some faith in that. Now along comes science, telling the rational man that no God exists, telling the rational man that once we die that's it. Where goes a flame once you blow out the candle? It simply ceases to exist. People who consider themselves reasonable and rational and of a scientific mindset still shy away from the acceptance of our own mortality leading to -- nothing. We are all so fragile, and our lives can end in the blink of an eye, be it Earl Mcrae dying of a massive heart attack at sixty nine at home, that 30 year old woman who was killed tragically while bicycling to work the other morning, the young runner who dropped dead in his twenties during the Toronto marathon, or Jack Layton and Steve Jobs, so successful, so energetic, melting away under the heartless grip of their own genetic code. We all live with the awareness that our lives can simply end at any point in time, with our without warning. Reason tells us this, but we shrink from that knowledge, and faith protects and comforts us, with the promise of something more to come. You say - Reasoning - that there is no God, for if there was, there would not be such misery, such unhappiness, such poverty. Yet even I, who has little faith, could reason - using Faith - that to say that God's plan is beyond your ken. We are all souls on a journey to enlightenment, and on this earth as a challenge and an opportunity to learn and grow. Our earthly bodies and the brief period we wear them are of little importance. It is our soul, and the challenges it faces and overcomes -- or fails to overcome -- which is the point of our earthly existence. So if all here was peace and joy without hardship and misery, how could we learn and grow? That is reason and faith together, and it comforts us, or some of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 if he did kids wouldnt die of starvation in poor countries in the world A revealing statement of definition (of yours) that you are personally refuting: That God is a "he" and that "he" would intervene to prevent starvation deaths of children in poor countries. This sounds like the classic 'God-in-thine-own-image' definition where you have defined God in your own image and then, because of your personal moral needs and wants not being fulfilled, God cannot possibly exist. If you are female, the classic father-figure replacement is just as valid, with the father-figure replacing 'thine-own-image.' The Gnostics might disagree with your definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 I cannot put faith in the divine, or supernatural, because there is no logic or reasoning. Does one need logic or reasoning to believe and have faith in the divine? The answer is no. You simply have to assign a higher potential to the author of the universe than science to have faith. In other words, faith must include a potential to override scientific reason. Is it the physical universe that is more powerful than it's creator - that is not logical. Is the conclusion there is something more vast than the physical universe preposterous? If you believe it so, you must logically follow science. But in doing that, you logically put yourself in a box wondering about it's origin. So here we are. You either have faith in an originator of the universe or faith in science to eventually discover it's origin or - originator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 You are presuming you know God's will, God's plan, and if there is any consistency in religion and its high priests of whatever cult or group it is that we cannot know all of God's plan. Presuming, of course, there is a God. Here is the essence of the problem. Can we know it all? What would we be if we knew it all? We would not be "man". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) Did betsy quit the forum? haha well I think when she read my rhyme she thought I committed a satanic crime and was scared away from the forum due to my lack of decorum so now we are left with Shwa and Hardner trying to figure out their Christ as a spritual partner with some references to Thomas Aquinas who they appear to equate some to some kind of highness my problem with Christianity you see is that it simply causes sheer misery with its sanctimonious assumptions and ridiculous interuptions don't you dare knock on my door to try proseltyze your blood and gore take your rituals and get off my lawn and with that comment poof I am gone Edited October 17, 2011 by Rue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Did betsy quit the forum? haha Not that you mention it .. I have not seen a post from her in some time. Maybe she gave up? Maybe banned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) How do you know that? Did you settle on a definition of "God" and then refute yourself? There are many religions who have quite a different view and definition of 'God' to the point where there is no universal defined concept of 'god'. Edited October 17, 2011 by GostHacked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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