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why the 'jewish state' now?


bud

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why did it suddenly become important to 'recognize israel as a jewish state'?

this 'recognition' has not been part of any treaties with any neighbouring countries. it was never part of any past negotiations with the PLO either. not the madrid conference in 91, not the oslo talks in 93, camp david summit in 2000 or any other negotiations until 2007 when olmert was leaving office.

so why, all of a sudden, it's become so important?

Where have you been? Even prior to the foundation of israel, Zionists were killing British soldiers for the establishment of a Zionist state.

Now as for a "Jewish" state, that's more controversial since those who equate Zionism with Judaism would insist that a Zionist state is Jewish by definition, whereas others, especially ultra-Orthodox Jews, would argue that the Jewish state is to be re-established only after the return of the Messiah. The latter group agree it's a Zionist state, but reject the notion it's also a Jewish state. Those in power are mostly Zionist though.

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It's not working very well....the Palestinian population has doubled in 20 years....Israel's hasn't.

Try again.....

Interesting....so the Palistinians are going to breed the Israelis out of existance hugh? Maybe the people of Israel should stop being bossed around by their mothers - getting all gayified - and secular....AND start having creational sex instead of this re-creational stuff....give it time Israel might just debach itself out of existance.

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Yes yes yes, and American revolutionaries were shooting up Red Coats and so on and so forth...

Wars of independence are often bloody things.

Why bother having them...if you keep your mouth shut long enough - your percieved oppressors will simply get bored and go to bed.

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Yes yes yes, and American revolutionaries were shooting up Red Coats and so on and so forth...

Wars of independence are often bloody things.

can you excuse the palestinian revolutionaries looking for independence the same way?

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can you excuse the palestinian revolutionaries looking for independence the same way?

seeing as relying on International Law, the UN or waiting for their zionist oppressors on their own to end their imperialism hasn't worked, they haven't been left with any other options...
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can you excuse the palestinian revolutionaries looking for independence the same way?

They could have had it, but they bought in to the whole Arab ideal, and quickly found out that the guys they had sided with were inept dictators who couldn't run a military campaign against any kind of well-trained military force if their lives depended on it.

Actions have consequences, and the Palestinians have spent decades trying to pretend the side they picked in 1949 should have no consequences.

Myself, I'm completely in favor of a Palestinian state forming tomorrow, fully recognized, so that the very next rocket that hits Israel will give Israel full rights to declare war, invade, seize territory and force reparations. The Palestinians will no longer be able to hide behind "we're not really a sovereign state" like they've been doing.

Edited by ToadBrother
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Actions have consequences, and the Palestinians have spent decades trying to pretend the side they picked in 1949 should have no consequences.

you have that backwards the palestinians never picked sides, arab neighbours came to their aid when a horrible injustice was done when the UN carved up their homeland and turned a blind eye to the following ethnic cleansing carried out by the zionists...this was no different that the allies coming to the aid of europe when the nazi's began invading their european neighbours...

time after time zionism supporters close their eyes to the reality of what's happened, giving a free pass to zionist expansion/oppression when the same wasn't acceptable when done by the Nazi's, Japanese, Yugoslavia(kosovo), Indonesia(east Timor), Iraq(kuwait)...an incredible double standard at play...

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you have that backwards the palestinians never picked sides, arab neighbours came to their aid when a horrible injustice was done when the UN carved up their homeland and turned a blind eye to the following ethnic cleansing carried out by the zionists...this was no different that the allies coming to the aid of europe when the nazi's began invading their european neighbours...

time after time zionism supporters close their eyes to the reality of what's happened, giving a free pass to zionist expansion/oppression when the same wasn't acceptable when done by the Nazi's, Japanese, Yugoslavia(kosovo), Indonesia(east Timor), Iraq(kuwait)...an incredible double standard at play...

I thought I was having a conversation with a rational human being...

At any rate, there is a universally recognized Jewish state, and not a Palestinian one. Whatever weird revisionistic statements you wish to make, the fact remains that if Palestine becomes a recognized sovereign state, and its government or agents of its government lob rockets into Israeli territory, that is an act of War, and I would fully support seizure of land, forcing of reparations and all the other goodies that go along with being the victor, as has been demonstrated time and time again when other belligerent powers lost the wars they started.

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I would fully support seizure of land, forcing of reparations and all the other goodies that go along with being the victor, as has been demonstrated time and time again when other belligerent powers lost the wars they started.

you would fully support something illegal like seizure of land? that's cool. thanks for being rational.

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you would fully support something illegal like seizure of land? that's cool. thanks for being rational.

I totally agree. The Allies had no right slicing up Germany after WW2, who should have been able to keep all its territorial gains. To be fair, we should go back to the 1942 borders.

Edited by DogOnPorch
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so that the very next rocket that hits Israel will give Israel full rights to declare war, invade, seize territory and force reparations. The Palestinians will no longer be able to hide behind "we're not really a sovereign state" like they've been doing.

you're making it sound like israel has not invaded and attacked palestinians numerous times already. a palestinian state would give more power to the palestinians in regards to legality of israel's actions. they can also sue israel for theft of water and other illegal activities. this is why israel doesn't want a palestinian state. they've vowed to never allow a palestinian state for a reason.

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I thought I was having a conversation with a rational human being...

At any rate, there is a universally recognized Jewish state, and not a Palestinian one. Whatever weird revisionistic statements you wish to make, the fact remains that if Palestine becomes a recognized sovereign state, and its government or agents of its government lob rockets into Israeli territory, that is an act of War, and I would fully support seizure of land, forcing of reparations and all the other goodies that go along with being the victor, as has been demonstrated time and time again when other belligerent powers lost the wars they started.

and I thought I was having a conversation with an educated adult...

my historical observations are on the mark, it's you that has some holds some "alternate" version of history, "History of the World according to Zionism...

seizure of land by force is illegal in international law...

Edited by wyly
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Wyly's position is clear - the Jewish people have no right to independence or self-determination through statehood. The "Palestinians", however, who magically became some distinct entity in 1967, are entitled to "Palestine".

Bud, on the other hand, takes a slightly more nuanced approach. He grudgingly accepts the existence of Israel (as if he has a choice), although refuses to acknowledge Jewish national rights. According to his perverted perspective, which is a watered-down version of the Muslim/Arab narrative of Israel, is that Israel was born in sin and is a mistake that must be undone. Clearly Israel cannot be defeated militarily (this is another reality that bud and his ilk grudgingly accept), so the new strategy to destroy Israel is now incremental through other methods: delegitimization, historical revisionism, and other political attacks using the usual verminous rhetoric of the left.

What do wyly and bud have in common? As I've said before, they both worship weakness and lionize losers.

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you're making it sound like israel has not invaded and attacked palestinians numerous times already. a palestinian state would give more power to the palestinians in regards to legality of israel's actions. they can also sue israel for theft of water and other illegal activities. this is why israel doesn't want a palestinian state. they've vowed to never allow a palestinian state for a reason.

A state can't really make a vow, now can it? Every single Israeli government since the reestablishment of Israel in 1948 has accepted the idea of "Palestinian" statehood. And contrary to your misrepresentations from the Knesset website, the current "right-wing" coalition government also accepts the premise of "Palestinian" statehood. Of course, the devil is in the details.

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you would fully support something illegal like seizure of land? that's cool. thanks for being rational.

Yeah, let the "Palestinians" continue their campaign of war, mass murder, and terrorism without consequences. Let's give them even more autonomy, so that they have more freedom to murder Israelis.

I've said it before in here, groups and collectives, just like individual persons, can forfeit any "rights" they may have had to independence or sovereignty by the commission of transgressions and unthinkable crimes. The "Palestinians", and the broader Arab/Muslim collective to which they belong, have made through their actions and statements that they cannot be trusted with full autonomy on our doorstep. If they ever civilize themselves (unlikely, as they're worse than they've ever been), then we can talk. Until then, the status quo will continue.

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Yes, call it whatever you want. Clearly coexistence is impossible with these people. So, separation is the only humane option. I'm not for complete removal of "Palestinians" from Israel, but most certainly most of them must have their citizenship "rights" revoked at a minimum, and ideally - repatriation of many of them to neighbouring Arab countries.

I'd say the same thing in Canada if there was some identifiable group that was wholly opposed to core values of Canadian society. Suppose that an identifiable group was, by and large, anti-democratic and engaging in decades of mass murder and terrorist campaigns in attempts to impose their will. I would support revocation of said group's citizenship "rights" in Canada, at a minimum, and ideally mass removal of them from our society.

Your "ethnic cleansing" one-liner only seems offensive to the ignorant, who think the "Palestinians" are people just like everyone else. People who share your ignorant and myopic worldview act as if worldwide, all cultures and societies are essentially the same, therefore any differing attitude to one group or another makes people like myself "racist" or "prejudiced" or "intolerant" or "bigoted". Because remember, in the fantasy world that you inhabit (where you've probably never spent much time outside of your own neighbourhood), everyone around the world who compose the many cultures and societies that you pretend to be familiar with, all people, societies, cultures, religions, political systems, historical narratives, and lifestyles are essentially the same - and of course they are all equally valid and worthy of respect.

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bob, you advocate ethnic cleansing of palestinians.

If you hate Nazis long enough you might just become what you hate - That is the nature of hate - it is transformable....The Germans were conditioned to hate the Jews - and years later the Jews are conditioned to hate the idea of Palistine - It all gets down to an ancient real estate dispute....over 2000 years ago Jesus the King of Judea ( as Pontius Pilate) finally identified him as - much to the dismay of the interlopers that were NOT Judeans who wanted him dead and wanted the land...."Those who say they are Jews (Judeans) are not. They are the gathering (synagog) of their father satan (liar)....so after all this time - the curse and revenge of Christ is still screwing up the area on the issue of who owns what. In Christs time the people that appealed to the state of Rome to get rid of the Judean King....had one thing in mind - to rid the area of the legal land owner - the king....so.....I guess Christ the super Jew...was very family orientated and expects Jews to own Judea...now to find out where they are.

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If you hate Nazis long enough you might just become what you hate - That is the nature of hate

it's ironic that many of the same people who were persecuted and oppressed are now the persecutors and the oppressors.

look at bob for example; a jew who has moved to a state which was created because his people were persecuted. now, he's advocating the ethnic cleansing of people who happen to follow a different religion.

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it's ironic that many of the same people who were persecuted and oppressed are now the persecutors and the oppressors.

look at bob for example; a jew who has moved to a state which was created because his people were persecuted. now, he's advocating the ethnic cleansing of people who happen to follow a different religion.

Yeah, ignore everything I just said, ignore everything that the "Palestinians" are, and just say I "hate" them because they have different religious beliefs.

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seeing as relying on International Law, the UN or waiting for their zionist oppressors on their own to end their imperialism hasn't worked, they haven't been left with any other options...

I'll see if my Leftardese is up to snuff...a-hem (clears throat)...here we go.

I agree. Violence is the only solution to their problems. Plus, before 1948, the place was a veritable paradise free of any conflict and strife. How can one not blame all of this mayhem on the Zionist Jews? The Arabs in the region were living saints incabable of causing problems without evil Zionist provocation. This is all so clear.

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it's ironic that many of the same people who were persecuted and oppressed are now the persecutors and the oppressors.

look at bob for example; a jew who has moved to a state which was created because his people were persecuted. now, he's advocating the ethnic cleansing of people who happen to follow a different religion.

THINK that is odd - my father under the guise and pretence of wearing a Nazi uniform in occupied Paris - infiltrated the German high command and killed a whole wack of them - Destruction of this brain power most certainly saved a few thousand Jewish lives..It was also rumored that my father took part in a failed un-documented assassination attempt on HITLER.....Then my younger brother...who has two children with a French woman who was ONCE married to a Jewish guy - goes nuts out of greed...and out of spite hands over two Christian orthodox boys to the Jewish Family and Child service...who inturn attempt to deem them as Jews - and in the end dump them when they figure out they are not and the mother was lieing...It took 5 years of litigation to set things straight ----

The staff at this Jewish orgainzation - who would by the way snatch Muslim children also...were an ungrateful bunch of bastards - If it were not for my father - the grand father of the two infants - some of the arrogant power crazed Jewish staff MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN BORN----how quickly this generation of Jews forget - the heroics perpetrated by Christians like my father in the saving of their sorry asses -------------This generation of Jews are a thankless bunch - some of them harmed the decendants of those that saved their grand parents lives - ungrateful bastards.

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you're making it sound like israel has not invaded and attacked palestinians numerous times already.

You're making it sound like Israel has not been invaded and attacked by Arabs numerous times already.

Edited by jbg
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