most canadians back palestinian state - why doesn't harper?

[bud]

And you're baffled

i'm not baffled.

i'm only pointing out that harper prefers to align himself with special interest groups and foreign countries rather than what canadians would prefer.

so, do you back a palestinian state or not?

[g_bambino]

i'm only pointing out that harper prefers to align himself with special interest groups and foreign countries rather than what canadians would prefer.

Putting aside the fact that a poll doesn't necessarily tell us what most Canadians prefer, you raised the fact of the disparity between the Prime Minister's stance and that of the majority of the poll respondents as though it irked you in some way. If you were merely stating the obvious for no reason, then, well... Okay.

[sp, c/e]

Edited September 20, 2011 by g_bambino

[fellowtraveller]

in this case harper figures he'll capture the jewish vote

Harper has been a supporter of Israel from day one,before during and after every election. he- unlike you- recognizes that they they have a right to exist. The Liberals supported them too.

2nd he's an evangelicall christian fundy/nutbar, his church believes in the Rapture

and every time you raise this, you confirm your own bigotry and intolerance.

Do you think Harper loves Jesus as much as Tommy Douglas did?

[Guest American Woman]

he doesn't say he doesn't support the establishment 'at this time'.

Of course he does. That's what voting 'no' to the resolution means. The resolution is whether or not to recognize Palestine as an independent state - not whether or not one supports the establishment of a Palestinian state. Of course our governments support that. Again. That's part of the peace negotiations. You do realize that. Right?

regardless, when is a good time?

How about when they've got a united government? when a terrorist organization isn't governing part of the 'state?' when the 'state' being recognized recognizes Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state?

negotiations with israel have gotten nowhere. especially with the current extremist government that runs israel. why can't negotiations happen after the bid? why can't the palestinians have a voice just like other people?

Are you forgetting that Hamas is beyond "extremist?"

the status quo has done nothing but to stall. of course israel is okay with that because it allows them to continue to annex more palestinian land.

When Israel has cooperated, it was met with rocket attacks. Israel, by all accounts, realizes it cannot let down its guard. Recognizing the government that carries out/supports such attacks isn't going to help the peace process.

back to the original topic; the harper government has gone against what the canadian people want. instead, he is repeating what a foreign government wants him to.

He's doing what he feels is in the best interest all the way around. The day he starts acting on what the majority of Canadians say in one poll is the day Canadians better really start to worry.

[scribblet]

Harper has been a supporter of Israel from day one,before during and after every election. he- unlike you- recognizes that they they have a right to exist. The Liberals supported them too.

and every time you raise this, you confirm your own bigotry and intolerance.

Do you think Harper loves Jesus as much as Tommy Douglas did?

Good one

- the revered very reverend Mr. Douglas was an evangelical 'fundy'... who also believed in eugenics - yikes'

Still wondering where the proof is that the 'majority of Canadians support Palestine"

Edited September 21, 2011 by scribblet

[Bonam]

1. Leaders need to act based on what they believe is right, what they believe is necessary, and what they promised to do. What a random poll shows, while sometimes being of interest, is not and should not be the main factor to determine government's action. If you had a poll asking whether or not you would like the government to give each citizen a million dollars, I'm sure you'd have a high percentage saying yes. Doesn't mean the government should do it.

2. Harper has been very consistent in his stance on the Israel/Palestine issue and there is no contradiction or abnormality in his stance on this issue.

3. Becoming a state is about a lot more than having the recognition of a powerless and laughable organization. If the Palestinians want to declare themselves a state, they can go ahead and do so unilaterally. Nothing is stopping them. Plenty of countries would recognize them, I'm sure. It might also help if they spent some of their effort actually building some of the institutions and infrastructure that a functioning state needs, rather than spending all their effort smuggling in junk to build little rockets out of.

[Wild Bill]

the people are not being asked about the details of negotiations. they are being asked whether they believe the palestinians should be backed in their bid for a statehood.

do you think the palestinians should be backed for a statehood?

No!

I have been following the situation over there for decades now. I still remember when Arafat was offered 95% of their demands and he turned the deal down!

I've come to believe that the Palestinian people are basically not civilized enough to have a state and practice peace. They are led by religious hate and can see nothing else. They think only about destroying Israel and have never given a thought to BUILDING anything constructive!

If they do achieve a state through political means at the UN, I think we should have another poll guessing how long before they ONCE AGAIN use the proximity of newly gained land to mount rocket launchers closer to Israel in order to take more accurate potshots at that country!

The best thing that could happen to all the Palestinian refugees would be to be offered citizenship in various countries around the world. There they could thrive without being under the control of religious fanatics. They are simply being used as dupes by other Arab fanatic countries.

If Harper WERE to support this UN Palestinian initiative, would he gain your vote, Bud? I think you are offering him a no win scenario. He wouldn't have your vote anyway and he would lose those like mine!

[Bob]

No!

I have been following the situation over there for decades now. I still remember when Arafat was offered 95% of their demands and he turned the deal down!

I've come to believe that the Palestinian people are basically not civilized enough to have a state and practice peace. They are led by religious hate and can see nothing else. They think only about destroying Israel and have never given a thought to BUILDING anything constructive!

If they do achieve a state through political means at the UN, I think we should have another poll guessing how long before they ONCE AGAIN use the proximity of newly gained land to mount rocket launchers closer to Israel in order to take more accurate potshots at that country!

The best thing that could happen to all the Palestinian refugees would be to be offered citizenship in various countries around the world. There they could thrive without being under the control of religious fanatics. They are simply being used as dupes by other Arab fanatic countries.

If Harper WERE to support this UN Palestinian initiative, would he gain your vote, Bud? I think you are offering him a no win scenario. He wouldn't have your vote anyway and he would lose those like mine!

You're bang on in your description of the "Palestinian" desires. Don't take my word for it, read the proclamations of their leaders who still can't bring their disgusting little lips to utter recognition of Jewish independence in Israel. Look at the how they STILL regularly engage in murder and other forms of terrorism - even against "their own", see how Fatah and Hamas murdered each other in the fallout of the 2005 Gazan "elections". Look at how they are constantly in breach of the Oslo Accords as they continually promote incitement, officially, through all channels - school curriculum, political declarations, all forms of media (which are almost exclusively "state"-owned), etc.

Or, take a gander at the Arabic/Islamic discussion boards and use Google Translate. Don't take my word for it (although I've likely had more conversations about this issue with Arabs/Muslims, and have listen to/read the opinions of "prominent" Arabs/Muslims regarding the conflict than most people in here combined). They don't want peace. They tell us they don't want peace. They regularly engage in and actively support terrorism and mass murder and "resistance". They revile Jewish people and those they view as our allies - Westerners. And on and on and on.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Bob

[wyly]

Harper has been a supporter of Israel from day one,before during and after every election. he- unlike you- recognizes that they they have a right to exist. The Liberals supported them too.

and every time you raise this, you confirm your own bigotry and intolerance.

Do you think Harper loves Jesus as much as Tommy Douglas did?

:lol:a statement of fact is bigotry?...if a politician believes in fairies, aliens and practiced voodoo worship and had those beliefs shape their political agenda everyone would be appalled by his/her behaviour,nutbar...the liberal pms did not let their religious beliefs shape their political judgment... Edited September 21, 2011 by wyly

[wyly]

No!

I have been following the situation over there for decades now. I still remember when Arafat was offered 95% of their demands and he turned the deal down!

BS, you've never read the proposals of the Oslo Accord... the Palestinians were offered nothing more than a puppet state with Israeli overlords, no halt to settlement expansion no return to 67 borders,no control over their own borders, the deal was a humiliating farce...the last country to try pull shit like that was apartheid regime in south africa with it's proposed Bantustans, no one was fooled by that crap (well maybe you were), the Zionists obvious thought it was great idea too...no country in the world would accept the restrictions that would have been placed on them that the way the Oslo accord would have limited Palestinian sovereignty... Edited September 21, 2011 by wyly

[Bob]

BS, you've never read the proposals of the Oslo Accord... the Palestinians were offered nothing more than a puppet state with Israeli overlords, no halt to settlement expansion no return to 67 borders,no control over their own borders, the deal was a humiliating farce...the last country to try pull shit like that was apartheid regime in south africa with it's proposed Bantustans, no one was fooled by that crap (well maybe you were), the Zionists obvious thought it was great idea too...no country in the world would accept the restrictions that would have been placed on them that the way the Oslo accord would have limited Palestinian sovereignty...

It was meant to be an interim agreement as part of a longer term movement towards the "two-state solution". Makes you wonder why they never accepted the Partition Plan, and never made any serious efforts towards real independence between 1949 and 1967, when Gaza was ruled by Egypt and the "West Bank" was ruled by Jordan. Why didn't they build "Palestine" during those years?

They were made a much more serious offer at Camp David, and many other offers via Barak and then Olmert) which people can read about if they go to the library (Dennis Ross' "The Missing Peace" is worth a read). It's funny how an internet advocate like yourself for the downtrodden "Palestinians" can scoff at offers made for increased autonomy to a "people" that has nothing to offer except undeliverable promises of reduced terrorism. As if the "Palestinians" are in some sort of position to be demanding things they were offered before.

It's like a girl denying several invitation for a date this week from a gentleman, and then years later comes back to the guy who originally asked her out, and he's now married, and she is now demanding TWO dates at the most expensive restaurants OR ELSE!

Even funnier is how you're pretending to be familiar with the terms of the agreement. You're certainly not fooling me with your "bantustan" rhetoric. Go watch some more Noam Chomsky two-minute clips on YouTube...

[jacee]

Of course he does. That's what voting 'no' to the resolution means. The resolution is whether or not to recognize Palestine as an independent state - not whether or not one supports the establishment of a Palestinian state. Of course our governments support that. Again. That's part of the peace negotiations. You do realize that. Right?

How about when they've got a united government? when a terrorist organization isn't governing part of the 'state?' when the 'state' being recognized recognizes Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state?

Are you forgetting that Hamas is beyond "extremist?"

When Israel has cooperated, it was met with rocket attacks. Israel, by all accounts, realizes it cannot let down its guard. Recognizing the government that carries out/supports such attacks isn't going to help the peace process.

He's doing what he feels is in the best interest all the way around. The day he starts acting on what the majority of Canadians say in one poll is the day Canadians better really start to worry.

I think it's good for Harper to know what Canadians think about this. And I also think it was a smart move by the Palestinians. Whether successful or not, it has created a global public discussion and greater awareness. Certainly taking the discussion out of closed negotiating sessions was a good move. They've never gotten past the who-did-what-to-whom recriminations yet, so some light and fresh eyes can't hurt. Let's face it : There is no peace process, just a war of words. It's clearly time to try another route, preferably the high road.

Each has to recognize the right of the other to exist as a state obviously. It's not so clear to me, though, that the Palestinians have to acknowledge Israel's right to be a Jewish state. That's an internal matter for the state of Israel isn't it?

[PIK]

Harper urges Palestinians to give up UN recognition bid

Canada has already indicated it will oppose this move.

link

it's nice to see that most americans back a palestinian state.

And you can prove that every person that took that poll was a canadian or american? Esrecially in canada where to much immigration has change the map here. Take out all new people to this country that have a connection to the ME. I would like to see a poll where only canadians born and raised in canada and see what the numbers are. Look at the people that wanted to talk to the taliban ( Mr Layton being one of them) and look what that just achieved.

[Wild Bill]

Each has to recognize the right of the other to exist as a state obviously. It's not so clear to me, though, that the Palestinians have to acknowledge Israel's right to be a Jewish state.

I'm still waiting for Hamas and the other fanatic regimes to admit that Israel has a right to exist at all!

Have they taken that bit out of their charter about driving Israel into the sea out yet? I hear they still teach their children in school that someday the trees and rocks will say "There's a Jew behind me! Come and kill him!"

You can't negotiate with rabid animals. I say invade the area and round up the entire Hamas government. Use them for landfill and then allow the Palestinians to choose their government without anyone holding a gun to their heads.

Still waiting for Kalid Meshall to hold those elections due a few years back. I'm not holding my breath.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Wild Bill

[fellowtraveller]

:lol:a statement of fact is bigotry?...if a politician believes in fairies, aliens and practiced voodoo worship and had those beliefs shape their political agenda everyone would be appalled by his/her behaviour,nutbar...the liberal pms did not let their religious beliefs shape their political judgment...

Yeah, you are a bigot and a hater as well. You seem to hate Christians for some reason and feel the need to express that bigotry regularly here, and note that I am not a Christian.

If Harper was a hardcore fundamentalist, would he permit abortion on demand, same sex marriage, fornication outside marriage,homos in the military, birth control, freedom of religion or sexual equality?

On the other hand, you worship fire and brimstone Baptist preacher Tommy Douglas, who once authored a thesis that said

Those deemed to be "subnormal" because of low intelligence, moral laxity or venereal disease would be sent to state farms or camps while those judged to be mentally defective or incurably diseased would be sterilized.[14]

.

Puzzling.

[bud]

No!

I have been following the situation over there for decades now. I still remember when Arafat was offered 95% of their demands and he turned the deal down!

95% of land was in the form of cantons. which means the cantons would be surrounded by israeli only highways. on top of that, east jerusalem was not included in the offer. anyone would have turned it down.

I've come to believe that the Palestinian people are basically not civilized enough to have a state and practice peace.

then you're quite the bigot.

They are led by religious hate and can see nothing else. They think only about destroying Israel and have never given a thought to BUILDING anything constructive!

they want to have a state in a land where they've lived in for centuries. that's not too much to ask. the rest of what you've written has too many holes and misinformation which i really don't have time to respond to.

remember that before israel was formed, there were jewish terrorist groups who targeted civilians. one of the leaders of the terrorist groups ended up becoming the prime minister of israel.

If they do achieve a state through political means at the UN, I think we should have another poll guessing how long before they ONCE AGAIN use the proximity of newly gained land to mount rocket launchers closer to Israel in order to take more accurate potshots at that country!

israel and its mouthpieces have been using 'security' as justification for human rights violations for far too long. rocket launches are a symptom of occupation, blockades and overall oppression.

majority of palestinians are in favour of a two state solution just like most israelis are. the minority on both sides should not decide the outcome. unfortunately, at the moment, extremists control the government on the israeli side and partially on the palestinian side.

The best thing that could happen to all the Palestinian refugees would be to be offered citizenship in various countries around the world.

why? they've been living on that land for centuries. why are you in favour of ethnic cleansing the area? you are saying that the jews who migrated to the land in the early 1900's should have priority over people who have been living there and that the palestinian should be shipped out. that's quite the warped view of the situation.

If Harper WERE to support this UN Palestinian initiative, would he gain your vote, Bud? I think you are offering him a no win scenario. He wouldn't have your vote anyway and he would lose those like mine!

anyone who promotes human rights violations will not get my vote. this means that harper, who promotes israel's treatment of palestinians will not get my vote.

Edited September 21, 2011 by bud

[bud]

And you can prove that every person that took that poll was a canadian or american? Esrecially in canada where to much immigration has change the map here. Take out all new people to this country that have a connection to the ME.

sorry buddy. people with middle eastern background, who are canadian, are as much canadian as you or me. it sounds like you're against democracy.

I would like to see a poll where only canadians born and raised in canada and see what the numbers are. Look at the people that wanted to talk to the taliban ( Mr Layton being one of them) and look what that just achieved.

u.s. and canada have already talked to the taliban.

[bud]

john diefenbaker, former prime minister of canada succeeded in expelling apartheid south africa out of the common wealth. that action and other actions taken by people around the world that isolated the apartheid regime eventually led to the end of apartheid south africa.

this time around, harper and unfortunately canada, will find itself on the wrong side of history. the end of israel's human rights violations against the palestinians will happen sooner than later. israel's extremist government's vision of a greater israel will not happen and the palestinians will have their own state.

[wyly]

Yeah, you are a bigot and a hater as well. You seem to hate Christians for some reason and feel the need to express that bigotry regularly here, and note that I am not a Christian.

what an idiotic statement, questioning superstitious fairy worship isn't bigotry when it interferes with secular government

If Harper was a hardcore fundamentalist, would he permit abortion on demand, same sex marriage, fornication outside marriage,homos in the military, birth control, freedom of religion or sexual equality?

On the other hand, you worship fire and brimstone Baptist preacher Tommy Douglas, who once authored a thesis that said .

harper fears voter backlash if he instigates his religion on the home front but there is little voter backlash to face in regards to international policy...

go dig up that Tommy D worship posts you claim I made...I'll wait...

Puzzling.

not surprised my dog is easily puzzled as well

[wyly]

john diefenbaker, former prime minister of canada succeeded in expelling apartheid south africa out of the common wealth. that action and other actions taken by people around the world that isolated the apartheid regime eventually led to the end of apartheid south africa.

this time around, harper and unfortunately canada, will find itself on the wrong side of history. the end of israel's human rights violations against the palestinians will happen sooner than later. israel's extremist government's vision of a greater israel will not happen and the palestinians will have their own state.

hard to believe we're arguing with supposedly democratic loving Canadians who believe ethnic cleansing is ok when it's Muslims...what happened to that moral outrage of ethnic cleansing in WW2 that my teachers in grade school claimed would never be allowed to happen again...yet here we have Canadians supporting a country that has purposely committed ethnic cleansing, created ghetto/Bantustans...

[Guest American Woman]

I think it's good for Harper to know what Canadians think about this.

And I'm sure he does know. I'm also sure he doesn't think this poll is the beginning and the end; and I think that because I don't believe Harper is an idiot.

And I also think it was a smart move by the Palestinians. Whether successful or not, it has created a global public discussion and greater awareness.

Yes, because God knows there was no "public discussion" and/or "awareness" prior to this vote.

Whether you think it was a smart move or not - whether I think it was a smart move or not - I think it's safe to say that nothing much will change regardless of the vote. I don't see what good would come out of it regarding resolution of the conflict.

Certainly taking the discussion out of closed negotiating sessions was a good move. They've never gotten past the who-did-what-to-whom recriminations yet, so some light and fresh eyes can't hurt. Let's face it : There is no peace process, just a war of words. It's clearly time to try another route, preferably the high road.

The "high road" would be to not have to vote on a would-be nation with a terrorist/terrorist-supporting government. It's hardly the "high road" to give a terrorist government the recognition of legitimacy.

Each has to recognize the right of the other to exist as a state obviously. It's not so clear to me, though, that the Palestinians have to acknowledge Israel's right to be a Jewish state. That's an internal matter for the state of Israel isn't it?

I have no doubt at all that that's "not so clear" to you. And no, it's not simply an internal matter. If Palestine is to accept Israel as a state, it has to recognize it for what it is. To do otherwise is merely a token recognition- an aren't-we-great-to-accept-Israel false front presented to the world. To not accept Israel as a Jewish state is to not accept that a Jewish state has a right to exist - and that says it all as far as the security - or more appropriately, the lack-thereof - Israel would have to face in a region with yet another recognized Islamic state.

[Bob]

Yes, because God knows there was no "public discussion" and/or "awareness" prior to this vote.

Perhaps jacee is a johnny-come-lately to this issue, perhaps she's in her second year of liberal arts and thinks the Israeli-Arab conflict needs more exposure in order to create "greater awareness". Lord knows the "Palestinians" don't get enough light shone on their "plight".

I have no doubt at all that that's "not so clear" to you. And no, it's not simply an internal matter. If Palestine is to accept Israel as a state, it has to recognize it for what it is. To do otherwise is merely a token recognition- an aren't-we-great-to-accept-Israel false front presented to the world. To not accept Israel as a Jewish state is to not accept that a Jewish state has a right to exist - and that says it all as far as the security - or more appropriately, the lack-thereof - Israel would have to face in a region with yet another recognized Islamic state.

They might as well accept Israel as an Islamic state, which is exactly what they view it as - an illegal state built on top of land that belongs to them. A blight that will eventually be corrected through "liberation" and "struggle".

[bud]

bob advocates ethnic cleansing. why aren't any of you "pro-israelis" condemning him? do you also support ethnic cleansing?

[Bob]

bob advocates ethnic cleansing. why aren't any of you "pro-israelis" condemning him? do you also support ethnic cleansing?

Is it better for uninvolved, ignorant, and politicized third-parties like yourself to pretend to be able to dictate to us what we should or should not do? Who are you to force us to live with a population that largely supports mass murder and terrorism? Do the "human rights" of the "Palestinians" to reside in specific areas trump our "human rights" to live in peace and security in our own land? As long as we live with them, entrenched with them, we will never have real peace and security. Only significant separation can provide that.

Of course, more and more murdered Jews and Israelis means nothing to do. After all, it's probably our own fault, anyways. Saving lives doesn't matter, but protecting the "human rights" of the "Palestinians" to continue their political mission of mass murder and terrorism is of the utmost importance.

[Bob]

A much more interesting question for the forum participants to ponder is, "What is the breaking point for supporting the removal of most or an entire population or identifiable group from your vicinity"? Is "ethnic cleansing" ever permissible? What if 50% of an identifiable group supports mass murder towards the political objective of destroying your country and its basic institutions? What is 75% of that group feels that way? 99%? What is the criteria for which you would accept and support the removal of most or all of n identifiable group from your land?