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Occupy Wall Street Sept 17 2011


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I am not advocating state socialism, I don't believe that is a solution.

Look at the wealth gap in the US, it is the largest of any of the industrial nations, why is that? It definitely isn't because of social security or other entitlement programs or a lack of taxes on the rich.

Since when is a gap in wealth an issue that needs intervention from the government in a free society?

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...Look at the wealth gap in the US, it is the largest of any of the industrial nations, why is that? It definitely isn't because of social security or other entitlement programs or a lack of taxes on the rich.

Because it has the most wealth....DUH!

The fact is that massive amounts of federal, state, and local tax revenue is redistributed to people who are not wealthy. It does not all go "to the top".

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I am not advocating state socialism, I don't believe that is a solution.

Look at the wealth gap in the US, it is the largest of any of the industrial nations, why is that? It definitely isn't because of social security or other entitlement programs or a lack of taxes on the rich.

How do you propose to eliminate the wealth gap except through state socialism?

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Since when is a gap in wealth an issue that needs intervention from the government in a free society?

I don't want the government to redistribute wealth.

There are two ways...there is probably more then two way but there are two ways I can think of. First, socialism, not state socialism, there is a difference. The workers need to realize they control the means of production, they need to take control of their work place. This has nothing to do with the government, this is on the people, the workers, they need to better their situation for themselves.

Second, I have mentioned this several times before but you guys constantly discredit this notion, we need sound money. We can't continue to use a fiat currency. The inflation associated with fiat currency directly takes the wealth from the middle and lower classes and gives it rich. Inflation is a hidden tax on the people that affects the lower income families the most.

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And who are the 1 per cent? They are the top 1 per cent of Americans who have 40 per cent of the nation’s wealth and pocket 24 per cent of its income.

They include the incompetents who brought us Enron, Nortel, the BP oil spill that fouled the U.S. Gulf states coast, and the Wall Street meltdown that triggered the Great Recession. They include Jon Stewart’s boss at Viacom Inc., Philippe Dauman, America’s highest-paid CEO. Barely a year on the job, Dauman was paid $84.5 million in 2010.

They are the captains of industry who promised us “pay for performance” to justify a new era of staggering payouts from stock options – “a reward for breathing,” as Warren Buffett complains. But instead, they gave us “pay for failure.”

The fired CEOs of Home Depot Inc., Pfizer Inc., Merrill Lynch Inc. and Citigroup Inc. each walked away with severance of $40 million to $200 million.

The send-off for the 8.4 million North Americans laid off in the recession was a few weeks’ pay and accumulated pension earnings. That’s assuming their employers were not among those that have scrapped defined-benefit pensions as a cost-cutting measure.

...

As I’ve said before in this space, we can act on the warning of these progressive demonstrators. Or we can respond with riot police. But a change is gonna come.

Http://www.thestar.com/article/1065057--olive-99-percenters-are-literally-sick-of-being-left-out

@Bonam

- Raise the minimum wage to something people can actually live on.

- Investigate all tax filers paying well below the assigned rate for their income bracket and recoup any illegally witheld taxes and prosecute where necessary.

- Aggressively investigate Canadian money stashed in tax havens, recoup all outstanding taxes and prosecute.

- Aggressively investigate and prosecute bankers/advisors 'facilitating' tax evasion.

- Aggressively investigate and prosecute those associated with stock market shams - eg, INT and other stocks using false advertising to attract investors and insider information to reap profits from phantom products.

- Investigate hedge funds for associated insider manipulations such as allowing mortgage products to fail so hedge funds will prosper.

- Aggressive investigation of insider trading/advice.

- Prosecute bankers who approve stock market listings for companies who violate human rights here or in other countries.

- Raise taxes on capital gains.

- Raise taxes on investment income.

I don't claim to know much about the stock market, but those are a few of the problems I've come across.

The quick in-and-out megaprofits from manipulated stocks seem ripe for investigation of insider trading and manipulations to me. I'm just an occasional observer, but I found one. It must be easy for those in the business to find them.

- Implement MUCH stronger controls on trading, and quick and thorough prosecution of violations.

We'll fill Harper's jails for hi m. :)

And finally, make obscene and conspicuous wealth unpopular and suspect. We're moving that way anyway, moving into a time when we value the earth that sustains us, instead of paving it.

So that brings me to ... outlaw all products that are not reusable, recyclable and biodegradable.

And focus on sustaining all human life instead of 'rewarding' predators who prey on the lives of others.

Predatory capitalism is soooooo 20th century. :)

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I don't want the government to redistribute wealth.

There are two ways...there is probably more then two way but there are two ways I can think of. First, socialism, not state socialism, there is a difference. The workers need to realize they control the means of production, they need to take control of their work place. This has nothing to do with the government, this is on the people, the workers, they need to better their situation for themselves.

So, what, the workers should rise up and seize the means of production from their oppressive employers? Form workers councils that control the factories and allocate money based on "need" perhaps?

Second, I have mentioned this several times before but you guys constantly discredit this notion, we need sound money. We can't continue to use a fiat currency. The inflation associated with fiat currency directly takes the wealth from the middle and lower classes and gives it rich. Inflation is a hidden tax on the people that affects the lower income families the most.

Actually the people most affected by inflation would be people with large stores of wealth. If you have no savings, you aren't losing any value to inflation.

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@Bonam

- Raise the minimum wage to something people can actually live on.

I've lived on a yearly salary that amounted to less than full time minimum wage. Wasn't so bad really. Even managed to save a few thousand per year. Maybe people need to be more frugal if they are living on minimum wage? $1600/month is plenty to live a perfectly comfortable lifestyle for a single person, that's just over $9/hour, which is right where minimum wage is in many jurisdictions.

- Investigate all tax filers paying well below the assigned rate for their income bracket and recoup any illegally witheld taxes and prosecute where necessary.

- Aggressively investigate Canadian money stashed in tax havens, recoup all outstanding taxes and prosecute.

- Aggressively investigate and prosecute bankers/advisors 'facilitating' tax evasion.

- Aggressively investigate and prosecute those associated with stock market shams - eg, INT and other stocks using false advertising to attract investors and insider information to reap profits from phantom products.

Investigation needs reasonable cause. Also, investigation costs money. Furthermore, giving the government broad power to investigate things without cause leads to the potential for tyranny and oppression. I prefer a wealth gap over an oppressive government.

- Prosecute bankers who approve stock market listings for companies who violate human rights here or in other countries.

On what basis?

- Raise taxes on capital gains.

- Raise taxes on investment income.

So people will pull their money out of the markets, companies will have a harder time raising capital, and economic growth will slow down. This will help people how? Employment is the best cure to poverty, and it is only economic growth that creates jobs over time.

I don't claim to know much about the stock market, but those are a few of the problems I've come across.

And finally, make obscene and conspicuous wealth unpopular and suspect. We're moving that way anyway, moving into a time when we value the earth that sustains us, instead of paving it.

So you want to engage in social engineering, moulding the thoughts and perceptions of others to agree with what you perceive is moral. Not only do you want to create a state that has tyrannical powers to investigate its citizens without cause, you also want the state to brainwash its citizens with your notions of morality.

So that brings me to ... outlaw all products that are not reusable, recyclable and biodegradable.

Not even a cave man can restrict themselves to using only such "products".

And focus on sustaining all human life instead of 'rewarding' predators who prey on the lives of others.

There's a lot more to human life besides being "sustained".

Edited by Bonam
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So, what, the workers should rise up and seize the means of production from their oppressive employers? Form workers councils that control the factories and allocate money based on "need" perhaps?

Perhaps.

I think unions really need to step up and take more control. Some of these CEO salaries are ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is a perfect solution and I am sure unions can become corrupt but it still puts power back into the hands of the workers.

Actually the people most affected by inflation would be people with large stores of wealth. If you have no savings, you aren't losing any value to inflation.

If you are a multi millionaire or billionaire, does it really matter if gas goes up 6 cents a litre. When you are living pay cheque to pay cheque, seeing gas prices and food prices rise hurts you the most. Even if you are slightly better off, having prices rise still diminishes your wealth and the things that benefit are the corporations that then see higher profits.

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Perhaps.

I think unions really need to step up and take more control. Some of these CEO salaries are ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is a perfect solution and I am sure unions can become corrupt but it still puts power back into the hands of the workers.

It's not any kind of solution, perfect or imperfect. What it is is a recipe for living hell on Earth.

If you are a multi millionaire or billionaire, does it really matter if gas goes up 6 cents a litre. When you are living pay cheque to pay cheque, seeing gas prices and food prices rise hurts you the most.

If it's really general inflation of the economy, everything is inflating, including wages.

Even if you are slightly better off, having prices rise still diminishes your wealth and the things that benefit are the corporations that then see higher profits.

That doesn't make any sense. You need to look up what inflation actually means.

Edited by Bonam
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It's not any kind of solution, perfect or imperfect. What it is is a recipe for living hell on Earth.

I don't follow

If it's really general inflation of the economy, everything is inflating, including wages.

Wages never keep up with price inflation.

I remember 5 years ago when I first got my licence gas was 70 cents a litre, now it is hovering at 120 cents a litre. My wages did not increase that much over the same period of time.

That doesn't make any sense. You need to look up what inflation actually means.

Inflation is a rise in prices that is caused by an expansion of the money supply.

Maybe I worded that statement poorly.

When the costs of production rises, the corporations pass those extra costs onto the consumer. As a result the corporations take in a larger sum of money from the consumers which increases their profits which leads to higher dividends to be payed out. It is sort of trickery though, those dollars are worth less so it doesn't actually lead to growth, it is more of an illusion of growth. Does that make sense at all? The end result is us losing our purchasing power.

Edited by maple_leafs182
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I've lived on a yearly salary that amounted to less than full time minimum wage. Wasn't so bad really. Even managed to save a few thousand per year. Maybe people need to be more frugal if they are living on minimum wage? $1600/month is plenty to live a perfectly comfortable lifestyle for a single person, that's just over $9/hour, which is right where minimum wage is in many jurisdictions.

Great. Now raise a family on it.

Investigation needs reasonable cause. Also, investigation costs money. Furthermore, giving the government broad power to investigate things without cause leads to the potential for tyranny and oppression. I prefer a wealth gap over an oppressive government.

The government does nothing. These are matters for the police, whose oath is to uphold our rights, to protect us all from corruption of government for the personal profit of a few.

The data exists identifying the increasing accumulation of wealth - 40% and rising - by the wealthiest 1% of Canadians . That cannot continue. There's reason to suspect that some have more wealth, illegally untaxed in tax haven countries. There are people who advise on these matters. And there is data showing that some among the wealthiest pay tax of 10%, like the lowest income bracket. Let's see why.

There's work to be done to prepare a case for investigation, true.

On what basis?

Canadian registered mining industries have the worst record for violations outside the country. When the courts here won't touch it, they go to the International courts. Canada is on the hotseat for this at the UN already. Other countries talk.

So people will pull their money out of the markets, companies will have a harder time raising capital, and economic growth will slow down. This will help people how? Employment is the best cure to poverty, and it is only economic growth that creates jobs over time.

I don't claim to know much about the stock market, but those are a few of the problems I've come across.

:)

The law is the law.

The predators may be few and insignificant to the economy, except for draining us of money, and we can do without that.

So you want to engage in social engineering, moulding the thoughts and perceptions of others to agree with what you perceive is moral. Not only do you want to create a state that has tyrannical powers to investigate its citizens without cause, you also want the state to brainwash its citizens with your notions of morality.

Fads come and go. Obscene wealth is tacky. It's suspect for victimizing people for profit. That's just me, but I see the growing disillusion with stock market manipulation for profit. They're not smart, they're just thieves, con artists, criminals wearing ties.

I don't want the state investigating anybody, just the police where there is cause.

Not even a cave man can restrict themselves to using only such "products".

What else did he use?

:lol:

There's a lot more to human life besides being "sustained".

Really?

You mean life after death?

I'll stick with life thanks.

Is there a hedge fund for that?

:)

Edited by jacee
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You are dated BC - there is no more good American product - just junk from beyond that your greedy corporations have arranged to have made by slave labour ------------------you live in the past.

No...I live in the future. There's a show running right now on cable for things "Made in America", the biggest manufacturing nation in the world. Wannabes in Canada can't change that.

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No...I live in the future. There's a show running right now on cable for things "Made in America", the biggest manufacturing nation in the world. Wannabes in Canada can't change that.

Oh you saw it on TV - then it must be true - what ever happened to American power tools that lasted a life time? WE in Canada have these great labels stuck on Canadian goods..... Big red Maple Leaf and an inscription that you assume at first glance states < Made IN Canada...on closer examination it states "MADE FOR CANADA" - Better read your labels BC - I am sure you will find American product that has that little Asian lie inscribed in small print also.

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....."MADE FOR CANADA" - Better read your labels BC - I am sure you will find American product that has that little Asian lie inscribed in small print also.

Yes...some of the stuff is "Made In Canada" too, just like "Made in China"...all the same to me. Canadians need to spend more time worrying about the fact that we found a much cheaper labor force than Canada. America doesn't owe you a manufacturing base. And we still make more "stuff" than anybody else.

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If you actually believe that Wall Street's reach only extends as far as the American borders, then you sir are an imbecile.

I think you have it backwards...I actually believe that your reach doesn't extend beyond the Canadian border.

Sorry....you don't to get vote for US president or decide what happens on Wall Street.

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I think you have it backwards...I actually believe that your reach doesn't extend beyond the Canadian border.

Sorry....you don't to get vote for US president or decide what happens on Wall Street.

When a slightly dumb Wall Street upstart calls up Bay Street and by luck manages to get some good and solid advise and mentorship from one of our old wise dogs..then uses that suggested course of action to proceed...then that would mean that our reach goes beyond our boarder. The 49th line that is our boarder is not made of steel - persons might be restricted from crossing it - but not information. Just as in the entertainment field - Canadians assist Americans - our business people also enter into your system - Look at Conrad Black - how many visitors that are American have come to see him to gain a better education? DO you really think they keep Conrad because he is a bad guy? They keep him because of his experience - and wealth of knowledge - much like the ancients would kidnap the great ship builders and scientists...and put them to work _ Gengis Kaln - would always scoop up the experts and bring them home to work for him in the act of empire building and sustainment......who are you kidding BC - You kidnapped Black because you were having problems keeping your books together -

Here is a scenario - some "powerful" American business person or political calls up the jail and says "Conrad - what do you think we should do?" - they do this because Black is a wise man - and you people are short on wise guys. As the record shows.

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DO you really think they keep Conrad because he is a bad guy? They keep him because of his experience - and wealth of knowledge -

LOL...no, America arrested and convicted his ass for criminal acts. That's how smart he is, and how limited is your reach to bring him back. Thank you for proving my point!

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Yes...some of the stuff is "Made In Canada" too, just like "Made in China"...all the same to me. Canadians need to spend more time worrying about the fact that we found a much cheaper labor force than Canada. America doesn't owe you a manufacturing base. And we still make more "stuff" than anybody else.

Then "America" (sic ... means US) should stop buying Canadian factories.
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