Could guns help keep the peace?

[Saipan]

GUNS - I like them as toys

Then you shouldn't have any.

But can not have one in the city...where you going to fire the damned thing?

My oldest is the shooting range master in Toronto (Mississauga).

Some senseless people who's lives are a big disappointment are just itching to shoot someone...

Like I said you shouldn't have any. And legally you can't.

[Remiel]

He wanted to know whether I ever fantasized about being what he called the "social janitor," the guy who goes into the human sewer and cleans things up. I told him when I see the news clips out of London, I naturally think about Charles Bronson and a scene from Death Wish II.

I would tell this guy that he should be careful of those who have fantasies of "cleaning up" people who see themselves as "social janitors" .

[Oleg Bach]

What's a semetic?

What makes you think I do? Where's the Asian connection to what happen to Jews?

Hitler the house painter was exterminating Jews because they were not smart enough?

He hung wall paper and did some art work - typical non original stuff...much like hating Jews - very old hate style politics - still used today by politicals with no talent.

[Oleg Bach]

I would tell this guy that he should be careful of those who have fantasies of "cleaning up" people who see themselves as "social janitors" .

I worked as Bronsons lighting stand in on Death Wish 2 - We would sit on the deck in Northern Ontario and talk after lunch -He was more interested in talking about his origins as a Ukranian coal miner - told me that he was the only surviving siblling out of 9... A big black crow flew by one day and I said "Mr. Bronson - that there is a Canadian eagle" He almost believed me - then gave that famous cynical smirk and let out half a laugh- I would say he was the most down to earth guy that I met in the buisness -

He dispised smoking...would not let his driver smoke - I could not smoke in his presence...It was probably because his beloved wife Jill Ireland died of lung cancer. Bronson was so respected by Hollywood tough boys that when they came to his house - He would make Shaun Penn smoke at the end of the driveway..which was a standing joke - seeing Penn was not the type to submit to anyone - but Charely.. Just a little story for you...as for guns keeping the peace - Just shoot everyone that is breaking the peace...that would make you a peace maker...

[Shwa]

I would tell this guy that he should be careful of those who have fantasies of "cleaning up" people who see themselves as "social janitors" .

That is the point, isn't it? He makes his point about it and then gives a false illustration using Switzerland as the example. And if it weren't for all those violent riots the Swiss have from time to time, he might have a point.

The second point is the sheer level of gullibility of the people espousing this view, at least from the perspective of the article. I cringe when I think of people swallowing this line of garbage and then repeating it like some sort of insight.

I mean Charles Adler didn't even do some basic fact-checking!

[Topaz]

Interesting bio of Bronson, his real last name was Buchinsky, but change it, he was a aerial gunner in WW2 and received the Purple Heart. He was one of 15 kids and his parent were Lithuians and he worked in the coal mine son Pennsylvania. Check the rest rest out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bronson

[Saipan]

Interesting bio of Bronson, his real last name was Buchinsky, but change it, he was a aerial gunner in WW2 and received the Purple Heart. He was one of 15 kids and his parent were Lithuians and he worked in the coal mine son Pennsylvania. Check the rest rest out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bronson

How does that help?

[eyeball]

How does that help?

How do you?

[Rue]

He hung wall paper and did some art work - typical non original stuff...much like hating Jews - very old hate style politics - still used today by politicals with no talent.

Oleg trust me Saipan wasn't being anti-semitic. I think the point he was making is actually one many Jews have argued. For example Saipan's arguement was very much echoed by some survivors of the holocaust who then went on to Israel and founded the country.

Certainly the people who chose to stand and fight in the Warsaw Ghetto and in Sobibor would agree with Saipan. I understood what he meant. He was making the point many have asked openly and that is, had these victims fought back would it have made a difference? Its a rhetorical question.

I think its a pointless question. Its like asking a rape victim whether if she fought back she would not have been raped. To me its pointless. It might have worked maybe it would have been completely futile. No one will know but what I do know is such questions can mistakenly end up holding victims of violence to blame for not fighting back and that is wrong I think and so where I agree with you Oleg, but I wouldn't call Saipain an anti-semite. He's far from it. He's actually someone sympathetic to us fighting for our collective identity if anything so he's actually the exact opposite. He's actually been quite blunt about saying we have as much right to defend ourselves as anyone else. So I thought it important to say that. Lol Saipan is many things I suppose, but I think he won't mind me saying if he hates people he hates them all the same for the same reasons. In fact I would have no problem giving Saipan a beer and complaining to him about life. He would put the beer down and make us do tai chi. He's a good guy I think. But then what do I know. I like you and you are a lunatic.

I personally believe that giving people handguns is insane. Why? I believe the vast majority of people would not know how to use them properly.

I believe a hand gun should only be used by someone specifically trained to use them. Other than a police officer or soldier forget it I can do without some jack ass carrying hand guns.

Thanks I like gun control. I don't want some guy who needs to hunt to feed his family harassed over his rifle but I think controlling hand guns is o.k.particularly in cities so they don't end up in the wrong hands andend up leading to murder in domestic disputes and endanger police and soldiers. So thanks but no thanks. I side with the police on this and say keep hand guns out of the hands of people whenever possible.

I don't think arming people in cities helps. I think it does the exact opposite.

I learned how to use a hand gun and its precisely why I don't have one now. They are not accurate. Anyone who tells you they are is a liar. Anyone who tells you they can shoot someone when they are under stress is also a liar. People are just as likely to freeze or shoot in a panic and hit the wrong thing or have the gun taken from them and used to kill them or others.

Believe me it is not easy to shoot at anyone when you can see their eyes. Its a fallacy to think you can. You have to be trained to get over the resistance to shoot at someone whose face you can see. It also takes constant training to be able to use a hand gun properly and accurately. Most hand guns no matter how good they are are no good after 3 feet. Learning martial arts is far more effective and realistic.

You want to empower yourself not to feel helpless-learn martial arts. If you aren't willing to learn martial arts then don't think a hand gun will give you a quick short cut.

As for police controlling crowds they have a wide range of weapons. They waterand sound cannons, horses, batons, physical wall movement with shields and the pounding of batons on shields, tear gas, spray foams, nets, tasers, dogs,horses, they have all kinds of weapons at their disposal but any crowd expert will tell you asserting physical force is a last resort.

Often controlling a crowd is in knowing when NOT TO USE any force not using it.

The name of the game in crowd control is giving crowds a way to disperse-when a crowd becomes bottled up and unable to move, then the violence erupts. Keep it moving and keep dispersing it by forcing the movement to spread out the crowd, and it works. The name of the game is to decrease the concentration of bodies.

The smaller the concentration the less likely the crowd acts as a pathogen to transmit violence.

Crowds effect the individual psyche like alcohol. They lower inhibitions. So decrease the no. of people in the crowd, and that effect gets weaker.

Tear gas,or water cannons have always been preferred by police. No police don't need guns nor do people to control crowds.

All gun fire will do is cause mob panic the last thing you do when dispersing a crowd.

Guns are not and were never the solution.

Anticipation and planning is. The country was caught off guard as to how fast crowds can serve as a pathogen to transmit violence. Why? Simple. The police underestimated the power of cell phones to transmit violence. In the past it was simply physical monkey see monkey do behaviour as one ape imitated the next and so on. Now the message to immitate is not communicated just through physical act, but by the cell phone as well.

The success of demonstrations world wide whether for political or stupidity reasons has been critical as a result of people twittering each other.

The police don't need guns. They need cell phone jamming devices which they are working on.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Rue

[Bonam]

I personally believe that giving people handguns is insane. Why? I believe the vast majority of people would not know how to use them properly.

So rather than banning them, why not require a thorough training course in their use with a test at the end? Much like driving. We wouldn't want people who are not trained in operating a vehicle driving a car, it would be very dangerous. But if they practice and pass a test, they are up to an accepted level of competence and can be granted a license to use one. Seems reasonable to me.

Most hand guns no matter how good they are are no good after 3 feet.

3 feet? A drastic exaggeration. They are fine at 10 times that range, and at a shooting range where you can take the time to carefully aim at a stationary target,you can hit things 50 times as far.

The real problem with guns for self defense is that many violent incidents where you might want to use a weapon to deter, injure, or kill the attacker initiate at very close range, when the attacker is close enough to already be in contact with you. At this range, you don't have time to effectively free and fire your weapon. It's rare that you'd be trying to shoot someone 50 yards away in "self-defense".

Edited August 16, 2011 by Bonam

[Saipan]

I personally believe that giving people handguns is insane.

True. They should buy their own.

I believe the vast majority of people would not know how to use them properly.

You can't own one till you get SPECIAL licence (not just PAL). Which as after minimum of one year as a member of registered gun club.

I believe a hand gun should only be used by someone specifically trained to use them. Other than a police officer or soldier forget it I can do without some jack ass carrying hand guns.

I don't think that, for example our Olympic Pistol Gold medalist Linda Thome would like to be called a jackass.

I like gun control.

Me too. It's hard to hit a target without good gun control.

I don't want some guy who needs to hunt to feed his family harassed over his rifle but I think controlling hand guns is o.k.particularly in cities so they don't end up in the wrong hands

No gun control does that. Only locking up the "wrong hands" for a very long time does.

I learned how to use a hand gun and its precisely why I don't have one now. They are not accurate.

Then you must have had a junk piece.

Believe me it is not easy to shoot at anyone when you can see their eyes.

Actually it's easier, you aim in between. Unless of course he wears an expensive glasses. Then I would tell him to take them off.

Most hand guns no matter how good they are are no good after 3 feet. Learning martial arts is far more effective and realistic.

I can shoot smaller target than Martial Artist at 200 feet

And this Canadian girl can shoot three (3) Ninjas in less than a second.

Then comes faster one.

And the fastest of ALL.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Saipan