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Up the Revolution!


Scotty

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Is anyone else getting more than a little tired of Ignatieff's ridiculous efforts at associating himself in some way with the people fighting and dying for freedom in the middle east? We have a free democracy here, and Ignatieff is a born-with-a-silver-spoon-in-his-mouth Harvard academic. So watching him shouting "Rise up! Rise up!'" and his continual portrayal of the Conservative government as the "regime" which is the enemy of democracy is insulting to my intelligence. It's insulting to the people who are actually bravely risking their lives to fight against real regimes.

Whatever one thinks about Harper's parliamentary power games neither the man nor his government are any threat to democracy or freedom. Shouting out that we need to vote in Liberals to protect us is ludicrous, and shows just how empty of ideas - not to mention ethics the current Liberal party is.

The other day, in his desperately anguished voice, he complained about how Harper himself had personally sent stormtroopers into that little makeshift polling station to attack democracy yet again - ignoring the fact his own party had closed down similar university polling stations in the previous election.

“I’m looking at a Conservative party that tried systematically to try to stop young Canadians from voting"

He is? Where is this fabled systematic effort at stopping young Canadians from voting? One tory worker for the local MP is a systematic effort by the party?

"This is part of a pattern and Canadians need to know it's worrying. I just, I can't believe it!"

Does he sound ready to burst into tears there? Is he already packed and ready to be smuggled out through the underground when the Harper regime comes for him? What does one wear to such an occasion, when one is of Ignateiff's class? Are the servants permitted to come too?

Granted, I didn't thin much of Ignatieff before, but I'm rapidly building up a sizable level of contempt for the sleazy tactics and blatant, in-your-face dishonest scaremongering of the man.

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I think that latest health care attack ad will work against them as surely most people know that the only party ever to cut health care was the Liberals... although on some places it's evident that some less informed far left people do buy into the paranoia about health care. The ad is much on the line of - soldiers in our streets - it's a lie and a gross distortion.

“I’m looking at a Conservative party that tried systematically to try to stop young Canadians from voting"

Systematically ? I wonder if Ignatieff actually knows about his party's successful attempt to shut down two similar polls at the U. of T.

Rise up I say - Rise Up :lol: :lol:

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I find the whole thing a bit sad.

To find the Sudbury video (which is here) he appears pretty reasonable to me - especially in the first 2 minutes.

He refers to Bruce Springsteen and "My City of Ruins" which, on the face of it, doesn't appear so unreasonable.

Certainly better than Ronnie trying to use "Born in the USA" way back when... :lol:

But, Ignatieff is going to get compared to Howard Dean, become an honorary member of the

(the irony is delicious), and
.

He does make a good point but so many end up focusing in on the "how he said it" (whether for good or for ill) rather than the "what he said."

He does have a point and if we were talking about Chretien and his contempt for democracy and parliament then the sound of the nodding heads on this forum would be deafening.

In this instance, the hypocrisy on this is deafening - both from the Liberals pretending to be able to deliver us from a contemptuous minority Conservative government, and from CPC supporters who slough off what Harper has been doing.

A pox on both your houses comes to mind - and yet I also can't stand the NDP.

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I think that latest health care attack ad will work against them as surely most people know that the only party ever to cut health care was the Liberals... although on some places it's evident that some less informed far left people do buy into the paranoia about health care. The ad is much on the line of - soldiers in our streets - it's a lie and a gross distortion.

Systematically ? I wonder if Ignatieff actually knows about his party's successful attempt to shut down two similar polls at the U. of T.

Rise up I say - Rise Up :lol: :lol:

He is getting a rise out of my temper but that's not going to cause him to rise with him at the ballot box

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I find the whole thing a bit sad.

To find the Sudbury video (which is here) he appears pretty reasonable to me - especially in the first 2 minutes.

He refers to Bruce Springsteen and "My City of Ruins" which, on the face of it, doesn't appear so unreasonable.

Certainly better than Ronnie trying to use "Born in the USA" way back when... :lol:

But, Ignatieff is going to get compared to Howard Dean, become an honorary member of the

(the irony is delicious), and
.

He does make a good point but so many end up focusing in on the "how he said it" (whether for good or for ill) rather than the "what he said."

He does have a point and if we were talking about Chretien and his contempt for democracy and parliament then the sound of the nodding heads on this forum would be deafening.

In this instance, the hypocrisy on this is deafening - both from the Liberals pretending to be able to deliver us from a contemptuous minority Conservative government, and from CPC supporters who slough off what Harper has been doing.

A pox on both your houses comes to mind - and yet I also can't stand the NDP.

mi barrio

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To insert a little levity

While suturing a cut on the hand of a 75 year old Alberta rancher, who's hand was caught in the gate while working cattle, the doctor struck up a conversation with the old man. Eventually, the topic got around to Ignatieff and his bid to be the PM of Canada.

The old rancher said, 'Well, ya know, he's a 'Post Turtle''. Not being familiar with the term, the doctor asked him what a 'post turtle' was.

The old rancher said, 'When you're driving down a country road and you come across a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that's a 'post turtle'.

The old rancher saw the puzzled look on the doctor's face so he continued to explain.

. . . 'You know he didn't get up there by himself, he doesn't belong up there, and he doesn't know what to do while he's up there, and you just wonder what kind of dumb guy put him up there to begin with'.

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Whatever one thinks about Harper's parliamentary power games neither the man nor his government are any threat to democracy or freedom. Shouting out that we need to vote in Liberals to protect us is ludicrous, and shows just how empty of ideas - not to mention ethics the current Liberal party is.

Asserting executive privilege against Parliament is an attack on the very foundation of our constitutional system of government. You can frame that any way you please, but I frame it as an attack on Parliamentary democracy.

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Asserting executive privilege against Parliament is an attack on the very foundation of our constitutional system of government. You can frame that any way you please, but I frame it as an attack on Parliamentary democracy.

I think the continual trivializing of this speaks to a lack of understanding. We're not talking about little Parliamentary niceties here. It also says something about partisanship, to be sure; so when people ask, "If the shoe were on the other foot, don't you think that many Liberal boosters would have the same dismissive response?"

To which I'd answer: "Of course!...but is that really your response? A hypothetical "Liberals would do it too?"

Edited by bloodyminded
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I think the continual trivializing of this speaks to a lack of understanding. We're not talking about little Parliamentary niceties here. It also says something about partisanship, to be sure; so when people ask, "If the shoe were on the other foot, don't you think that many Liberal boosters would have the same dismissive response?"

To which I'd answer: "Of course!...but is that really your response? A hypothetical "Liberals would do it too?"

The problem is that both sides are bandying Parliamentary privilege around as a political soccer ball. To some extent I can sympathize with the Tories, who doubtless feel that stuffy old procedures and conventions are being hurled at them for political advantage. To some extent I can disapprove of the Opposition, who probably don't give a damn about the underlying context of the Privileges they assert, hoping rather to keep a government off step and give themselves talking points during election campaigns.

At the end of the day, I side with our constitutional form of government. As right as the Tories may be that some of the actions of the Opposition in this regard are self-serving, at the end of the day they have no right to try to evade Parliament. It is not afforded the Government even the smallest bit of power to defy the will of Parliament, which, whether it is right or wrong to pursue any particular issue, has an absolute unquestionable right. I just wish the Tory cheerleaders could see that this is a bigger issue than just some partisan "bickering", but one of the key things that transformed our system of government from autocratic into a realm of the rule of law.

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I think part of the problem might also be that the Liberals always seem to be bringing up contempt for Parliament - a really fundamental issue - alongside relatively trivial issues like the Bruce Carson 'scandal' or the CPC kicking someone out of a party rally, seeming to put all these things on equal footing.

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democratic procedure trumps all issues no one can be allowed to chip away the fundamentals of it...without it we have nothing...

people in libya, syria, yemen, eygpt are literally dying to have we have, and we have right wingers shitting on our democratic procedure as inconvenient...I was taught in school canadians died in ww2 fighting right wing regimes for our freedom and DEMOCRACY, now we have another right wing regime attacking our democratic procedure from the inside...

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Cap I much prefer the version in which Iggy is yelling about rise up for democracy but that has Layton spliced into it pointing out Iggy doesn't even go to votes.

Turned on the radio this morning and heard some guy yelling, "Rise Up, Rise Up!". Well, I thought, it is Sunday - I must be listening to a church service.

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I think part of the problem might also be that the Liberals always seem to be bringing up contempt for Parliament - a really fundamental issue - alongside relatively trivial issues like the Bruce Carson 'scandal' or the CPC kicking someone out of a party rally, seeming to put all these things on equal footing.

It's also that, irrespective of legalities, a lot of Canadians think the opposition were acting disrespectfully towards the prerogatives of the government of the day and playing cheap political games with those mechanisms. I don't remember the Martin minority government very much, but I don't believe the opposition ever used committees in the same way they did against Harper. We didn't see them demanding a parade of ministerial and parliamentary aids to come and testify under oath before them during fishing expeditions. We didn't see demands for truckloads of papers on every possible issue the opposition thought it might be able to make some cheap political points on. We didn't see the opposition passing bills the government opposed, such as the one demanding all supreme court judges be french.

Now you'll say it's LEGAL for them to do all that, and you're quite right. But a lot of people have very little sympathy for that sort of behavior from an opposition, and consequently have some sympathy for the government trying to stymie them. I'm not saying the government has the right to refuse the information, but I understand them delaying it.

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Scotty, I agree with you one-hundred percent. The attempts to describe Harper and the CPC as "enemies of democracy" is pretty pathetic. Conversely, Ignatieff is trying to portray himself as the "pro-democracy" candidate, as if Harper is somehow anti-democratic. It's really pathetic, infantile, and revealing of how empty Ignatieff's message is. It's also hypocritical, as Ignatieff accuses Harper of using the "politics of fear", when Ignatieff's entire campaign (as was Martin's last time around) is built on portraying Harper as some sort of evil Darth Vader with plans for global domination.

Ignatieff here is making a call to fringe "activists" and leftist students, not to ordinary Canadians. Stop pretending to be some sort of benevolent revolutionary against the evil Harper empire, it's quite unbecoming...

Edited by Bob
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Now you'll say it's LEGAL for them to do all that, and you're quite right. But a lot of people have very little sympathy for that sort of behavior from an opposition, and consequently have some sympathy for the government trying to stymie them. I'm not saying the government has the right to refuse the information, but I understand them delaying it.

They don't even have the right to delay it.

This isn't just a legal principle, it's a bedrock principle of our system of constitutional parliamentary government. It is a common feature of all the Parliaments in all the Realms. It exists because, to put it bluntly, as mean-spirited and pointlessly a Parliament may harass a government over these things, what a government that actually managed to assert executive privilege could do is much worse. I ask you to go read why Parliamentary supremacy and privilege was born. I'm sure lots of Parliamentarians during Charles I's reign were just be irritating SOBs, but at the end of the day better to have a Parliament dominated by SOBs than a government that isn't subordinate to the SOBs.

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