Saipan Posted March 30, 2011 Report Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) No a work camp is not a prison, there is a definate difference between the two. If you can't recognize this then you have never been to a prison or a work camp. You're right. Why would I be in prison? What about lobotomies for people like you? Conversion to Socialism no doubt. That's what you have in common with Islam. Forced converting. Edited March 30, 2011 by Saipan Quote
dre Posted March 30, 2011 Report Posted March 30, 2011 Our problem isnt that we need more prisons its that we have massive over-criminalization, and the vast majority of our criminal justice system is geared towards the wrong kind of crimes. Our courts are full of soft drug, and prostitution cases, and the police dont even show up at your house anymore to investigate when your report a robbery, because theyre too busy making sure you didnt have a glass of wine with dinner, or their parked at the boatlaunch to fine you a few hundred bux for not having your personal pleasure craft operators certificates. Maybe before we use horrible violent crimes as an emotional reason to grow the justice prison system, we should ask why such a tiny percentage of our already huge bloated system is focused on these things? Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Michael Hardner Posted March 30, 2011 Report Posted March 30, 2011 The cost per prisoner is frankly ridiculous. As I said before, if you have free labour, basically, can you not set up labour intensive factories and make some profits? Doesn't seem to work in the US where the prison costs are very high. I expect that they only charge minimum wage for the work done, and they still have to pay the prisoners something. In case you're wondering the average cost to house a male prisoner is about $87,000 per year. More than I thought, thanks. The average cost to house a delicate, dainty, oh so sad, not-her-fault, female prisoner in a lovely cottage atmosphere with all the amenities is between $110-$250,000 per year, depending on which holiday resort we send them to, and how many servants they have, I guess. Uh huh. Maybe if we spent more on social workers we can cause less criminals to be produced, huh ? Yes, criminals are made just as sure as they're born. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted March 30, 2011 Report Posted March 30, 2011 Our problem isnt that we need more prisons its that we have massive over-criminalization, and the vast majority of our criminal justice system is geared towards the wrong kind of crimes. Our courts are full of soft drug, and prostitution cases, and the police dont even show up at your house anymore to investigate when your report a robbery, because theyre too busy making sure you didnt have a glass of wine with dinner, or their parked at the boatlaunch to fine you a few hundred bux for not having your personal pleasure craft operators certificates. I've read that before... what "full" means is to be determined but from this chart it's 3.9% for drugs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Canada Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Saipan Posted March 30, 2011 Report Posted March 30, 2011 Our problem isnt that we need more prisons its that we have massive over-criminalization Even ignoring some liberal bureaucratic paper work. and the police dont even show up at your house anymore to investigate when your report a robbery But they do if your neighbour says you were "waving a gun" All the while murderers get parole because prisons are "overcrowded". Quote
Saipan Posted March 30, 2011 Report Posted March 30, 2011 Doesn't seem to work in the US where the prison costs are very high. Cause they also have liberals. Quote
dre Posted March 30, 2011 Report Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) I've read that before... what "full" means is to be determined but from this chart it's 3.9% for drugs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Canada Thats still a pretty big number. I read that there were somewhere around 400 000 cases brought before the courts every year. Seems like your table would only count convictions. In any case overcriminalization has a way bigger impact than just its own direct statistics. I bet if you ask your average cop what percentage of their time is spend on drugs and prostitution hell tell you its a hell of a lot higher than 3.9%. And our bizzare laws also creates a massive pool of money that sponsors many other crimes and criminals. All Im saying is that before we grow the enforcement industry we should look at the bigger picture and look at all the resources we are currently wasting. Edited March 30, 2011 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Scotty Posted March 30, 2011 Author Report Posted March 30, 2011 Our problem isnt that we need more prisons its that we have massive over-criminalization, and the vast majority of our criminal justice system is geared towards the wrong kind of crimes. Our courts are full of soft drug, and prostitution cases, Do you have any evidence of this? Because that is not my impression. The police don't seem to pay much attention to small time soft drugs or prostitution unless they get a direct complaint. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
William Ashley Posted March 31, 2011 Report Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) You're right. Why would I be in prison? So you are law abiding eh? So why did you register your guns if 90% of Canadians didn't? What are you hiding? Conversion to Socialism no doubt. That's what you have in common with Islam. Forced converting. Too late. Edited March 31, 2011 by William Ashley Quote I was here.
William Ashley Posted March 31, 2011 Report Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) Our problem isnt that we need more prisons its that we have massive over-criminalization, and the vast majority of our criminal justice system is geared towards the wrong kind of crimes. Our courts are full of soft drug, and prostitution cases, and the police dont even show up at your house anymore to investigate when your report a robbery, because theyre too busy making sure you didnt have a glass of wine with dinner, or their parked at the boatlaunch to fine you a few hundred bux for not having your personal pleasure craft operators certificates. Maybe before we use horrible violent crimes as an emotional reason to grow the justice prison system, we should ask why such a tiny percentage of our already huge bloated system is focused on these things? There are reasons why I support a national policing initiative - and closer links with community based agencies such as Neighbourhood Watch. This allows you to be the police, you want to report something, fill out the paperwork. You want to see more police response, volunteer. The other part is providing the resources and training to do this sort of thing. We need to impower the public to do the work. The public only need to do it. Citizens who care protect themselves, and help those who can't. Citizens are peace officers in waiting. It is our civic duty to prevent crime. (And use best judgement to use only force required to the level of the crime) We also need more cameras and sensor systems. If you want your home to be secure from robbery, get a security system - motion systems. These can be got on the cheap. For a $40 system that is the price of a cop for an hour.. so with removing income taxes you should invest some of that back into your own home security costs. It happens, protect yourself before it happens to you. IN the defunct world of mainstream party politics the government doesn't even provide tax deducations for home security, but they do for insulation and other repairs. Lets get straight home security is vital for peace of mind and protection of assets. Tracking all people via RFID type censors in security cards in a passive network array is another way of securing the public WHen matching law abiding card carrying citizens with motion systems and facial recognition systems.... police and you can know who is where, and who is somewhere they don't want to be known to be. For the price of 1 or 2 cops per year a comprehensive citywide network could be made with public cards. small communities for even less. Individuals could buy their home protection system for the price of few sensors.. and put their home on the network. $40 isn't too much to ask for your home to be that much more protected. Sensors ARE CHEAP. The tags cost $1 (or less)... biometrics are going to happen the sooner it does the better they can be used. PREVENTION IS THE KEY. IF IT HAS HAPPENED IT IS ALREADY TOO LATE. Edited March 31, 2011 by William Ashley Quote I was here.
Michael Hardner Posted March 31, 2011 Report Posted March 31, 2011 Cause they also have liberals. I was about to post that blaming liberals won't work forever but it actually might. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Bonam Posted March 31, 2011 Report Posted March 31, 2011 Our problem isnt that we need more prisons its that we have massive over-criminalization, and the vast majority of our criminal justice system is geared towards the wrong kind of crimes. Our courts are full of soft drug, and prostitution cases, and the police dont even show up at your house anymore to investigate when your report a robbery, because theyre too busy making sure you didnt have a glass of wine with dinner, or their parked at the boatlaunch to fine you a few hundred bux for not having your personal pleasure craft operators certificates. I agree, a huge portion of our justice system and especially of police efforts focus on entirely the wrong things. Unfortunately, that's what happens when you have a bloated and perpetually growing government - it keeps creating more and more rules and regulations, and then it has to enforce them. Quote
Smallc Posted March 31, 2011 Report Posted March 31, 2011 I agree, a huge portion of our justice system and especially of police efforts focus on entirely the wrong things. Unfortunately, that's what happens when you have a bloated and perpetually growing government - it keeps creating more and more rules and regulations, and then it has to enforce them. Ummm, no, that's not why. The previous government was ready to decriminalize marijuana. This government, not so much. It's about ideology, not bloated government. Government is only what the people make it. Quote
Battletoads Posted March 31, 2011 Report Posted March 31, 2011 More prisons for imaginary unreported criminals who may or may not exist. and More prisons for non-violent pot users who hurt no one. Tell me again why people vote for these morons? Quote "You can lead a Conservative to knowledge, but you can't make him think."
Bonam Posted March 31, 2011 Report Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) Ummm, no, that's not why. The previous government was ready to decriminalize marijuana. The Martin government was gonna decriminalize marijuana? News to me, but perhaps I just wasn't paying attention. Got a reference to a bill (that must have presumably died in the election) or something? It's about ideology, not bloated government. Government is only what the people make it. When one party is in power and makes some new regulation based on their ideology, rarely is it repealed by another party. Instead, they add other regulations based on their ideology. For example, leftists criminalize "hate speech", right wingers criminalize drugs, and both remain criminalized under alternating left and right governments. The parties trade power back and forth, adding more and more rules and regulations, each based on their ideology. The number of rules and regulations grows and grows. Edited March 31, 2011 by Bonam Quote
bloodyminded Posted March 31, 2011 Report Posted March 31, 2011 Yes, criminals are made just as sure as they're born. Moreso, I believe. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Saipan Posted March 31, 2011 Report Posted March 31, 2011 So you are law abiding eh? So why did you register your guns if 90% of Canadians didn't? What guns? You need to be specific because the law is. What are you hiding? Lot of things. I even kept secret that I was speeding. So now you know. Will you report it or become accessory and go to prison? Should you go to prison for speeding or illegal parking? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted March 31, 2011 Report Posted March 31, 2011 More prisons for imaginary unreported criminals who may or may not exist. and More prisons for non-violent pot users who hurt no one. Tell me again why people vote for these morons? We already addressed the drugs issue on this thread. This seems to be a myth. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
bloodyminded Posted March 31, 2011 Report Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) We already addressed the drugs issue on this thread. This seems to be a myth. Yes, it appears incarcerations for drug offenses aren't as high as a lot of people think. However, it does appear that the "prisons chocked to the brim with violent offenders" theme--which I do believe is a common perception--is not exactly accurate either. Which reminds me, again: why should a burgler or a car thief be locked up with a murderer? The very fact that we do this helps lead to the perception that there is some all-encompassing entity called "a criminal," in which they share a lot of attributes. When in fact, they often share only a single attribute...that they broke a law. That's not much of a similarity. Edited March 31, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Michael Hardner Posted March 31, 2011 Report Posted March 31, 2011 Yes, it appears incarcerations for drug offenses aren't as high as a lot of people think. However, it does appear that the "prisons chocked to the brim with violent offenders" theme--which I do believe is a common perception--is not exactly accurate either. Which reminds me, again: why should a burgler or a car thief be locked up with a murderer? The very fact that we do this helps lead to the perception that there is some all-encompassing entity called "a criminal," in which they share a lot of attributes. When in fact, they often share only a single attribute...that they broke a law. That's not much of a similarity. Correct. Ignoring the numbers is as perilous as paying too much attention to them. So violent offenses seem to be about 12% or so of the total - but there is a mysterious 'other offenses' category that defies definition. Going to the source doesn't help. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
bloodyminded Posted March 31, 2011 Report Posted March 31, 2011 Correct. Ignoring the numbers is as perilous as paying too much attention to them. So violent offenses seem to be about 12% or so of the total - but there is a mysterious 'other offenses' category that defies definition. Going to the source doesn't help. Hmmm. As has been pointed out elsewhere (including by yourself) the lack of clarity and exactitude in official documents seems to be a widespread practice. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Michael Hardner Posted March 31, 2011 Report Posted March 31, 2011 Hmmm. As has been pointed out elsewhere (including by yourself) the lack of clarity and exactitude in official documents seems to be a widespread practice. On my recent vacation, I stunned my wife by opting to spend a sunny morning indoors - because there was a symposium on Open Government initiatives. It was the best part of my vacation, I'm sad to say. The Open Gov folks (on the government side) were quite cheerful and self-congratulatory. The activists (my tribe) were a lot more pissy. Tom Lee of Sunlight Labs gave a hint of what is coming on this front when he indicated that the differences between departmental budgets and payouts from the treasury department is in the trillions of dollars. Don't worry - the revolution will take care of this. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
bloodyminded Posted March 31, 2011 Report Posted March 31, 2011 On my recent vacation, I stunned my wife by opting to spend a sunny morning indoors - because there was a symposium on Open Government initiatives. Good God, man. Don't worry - the revolution will take care of this. I demand a plum position after it's done; something easy. "Cultural Liaison" sounds good. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Saipan Posted March 31, 2011 Report Posted March 31, 2011 Yes, it appears incarcerations for drug offenses aren't as high as a lot of people think. Even small time dealers don't go to jail. However, it does appear that the "prisons chocked to the brim with violent offenders" theme--which I do believe is a common perception--is not exactly accurate either. We are lead to believe prisons are overcrowded - or they really are. I know lot of perps are released early because of "overcrowding". And few of those shown to be armed the day after release. Which reminds me, again: why should a burgler or a car thief be locked up with a murderer? Possible, but never heard of that happening. They are often heavy penalized and given probation. Unless it's repeated. If for example someone habitually shoplifts, and nothing else discourages him he has to be locked - unfortunately. I say unfortunately, because I KNOW if he was given x number of lashes in front of the store he stole from he would never, ever, do that again. I would cost practically nothing and be over in minutes. And back to work. Prisons would be half empty, because the "heavy" criminals would never graduate that far. Quote
Smallc Posted March 31, 2011 Report Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) The Martin government was gonna decriminalize marijuana? It was the Chretien Government. Martin never got around to it after it died from a prorogation. When one party is in power and makes some new regulation based on their ideology, rarely is it repealed by another party. Instead, they add other regulations based on their ideology. For example, leftists criminalize "hate speech", right wingers criminalize drugs, and both remain criminalized under alternating left and right governments. The parties trade power back and forth, adding more and more rules and regulations, each based on their ideology. The number of rules and regulations grows and grows. They do that because we don't want them to do anything different...which is exactly why we trade parties back and forth. We decide how things go, and we're always the ones to blame. It's time we came to that realization and quit shifting blame to government. Edited March 31, 2011 by Smallc Quote
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