Prisons and their need

[dre]

We already addressed the drugs issue on this thread. This seems to be a myth.

No you only looked at the percentage of those incarcerated. That doesnt even begin to address the effects of prohibiting a substance that has mainstream demand on our justice system. Prohibition creates an extremely lucrative industry that honest regulated businesmen are not allowed to participate in, and provides a revenue stream that is used to sponsor a whole host of other criminal activity. Its no different than prohibition of alcohol was earlier in the last century. That policy did not just result in some bootlegging and posession charges. It funded and generated a whole crime wave that included murder, assault, extortion, prostitution, sexual slavery, and just about everything else you can think of.

Prohibition today sponsors and funds the existance of a multi billion dollar organized crime industry, and we needlessly criminalize millions of people.

This is a major structural problem, and throwing more resources at the system without fixing it, is like replacing the fuel pump on a car that doesnt even have tires.

[Michael Hardner]

This is a major structural problem, and throwing more resources at the system without fixing it, is like replacing the fuel pump on a car that doesnt even have tires.

You can't and shouldn't stop all activity on the prisons file because the pot lot is unfair. As far as I know, it's currently in limbo anyway but that's for another thread.

[Saipan]

Dopes don't want to be in any way controlled. They only want to control duck hunters

[bloodyminded]

We are lead to believe prisons are overcrowded - or they really are. I know lot of perps are released early because of "overcrowding". And few of those shown to be armed the day after release.

What has this to do with what I said?

Possible, but never heard of that happening. They are often heavy penalized and given probation. Unless it's repeated.

My point was that most inmates are not murderers.

That's not a debatable opinion.

[Saipan]

What has this to do with what I said?

Prisons and their need.

My point was that most inmates are not murderers.

Of course not, some graduate later. I already explained what to do with petty thiefs and vandals. Before they reach the confidence for bigger crime.

[bloodyminded]

Prisons and their need.

I think you have difficulty responding to straightforward remarks, so you try to shift the focus somehwere else.

Of course not, some graduate later. I already explained what to do with petty thiefs and vandals. Before they reach the confidence for bigger crime.

So most criminals eventually become murderers?

Where did you get this information? Because I've never heard anyone make this pretty wild claim before...and it's a declarative few sentences that you should be able to demonstrate with hard evidence.

[Saipan]

So most criminals eventually become murderers?

"Where did you get this information?"

All your words. I never said "most". Some do, and no one can predict who, 'though some indication may show early. Hurting people is not far after torturing or killing pets.

Or as you say, "I think you have difficulty responding to straightforward remarks"

[bloodyminded]

"Where did you get this information?"

All your words. I never said "most". Some do, and no one can predict who, 'though some indication may show early. Hurting people is not far after torturing or killing pets.

Or as you say, "I think you have difficulty responding to straightforward remarks"

No, the problem is you remain unclear...perhaps wilfully, I can't say.

I make an uncontroversial remark: that most criminals are not murderers.

Your respond with some foolishness about how non-violent criminals are murderers in training.

You're fighting against the very spirit of what other posters say, trying always to shift focus.

Edited March 31, 2011 by bloodyminded

[guyser]

Hurting people is not far after torturing or killing pets.

So hunters are prone to be people hurters?

By your own convoluted logic, since hurting people comes after torure or killing of pets, which include animals, then all hunters are a problem.

[Saipan]

So hunters are prone to be people hurters?

By your own convoluted logic

[Scotty]

More prisons for imaginary unreported criminals who may or may not exist.

and

More prisons for non-violent pot users who hurt no one.

Tell me again why people vote for these morons?

I thought the whole argument from the opposition was that this change in law would REQUIRE more prisons because of all the prisoners. Now you're saying that these prisoners are imaginary? Then what's the problem with the policy? I guess it won't cost that much after all!

[Scotty]

Which reminds me, again: why should a burgler or a car thief be locked up with a murderer? The very fact that we do this helps lead to the perception that there is some all-encompassing entity called "a criminal," in which they share a lot of attributes. When in fact, they often share only a single attribute...that they broke a law. That's not much of a similarity.

We separate prisoners by type of offense, or are supposed to. Thus burglars would go to a minimum security pen and murderers to a maximum security pen. That's the theory. Only often enough, in their bureaucratic fashion, Corrections Canada decides to move the murderers down to medium or minimum security. As in the case with that seven foot tall murderer who simply took away his 'escort's car during a day trip - from minimum security.

The people at Corrections actually seem to think they can read a man's mind, that their psychologists can decide whether a man is violent or not without regard to his history. That's proven wrong time and again. The best way to judge a man is by his deeds.

[WWWTT]

"Where did you get this information?"

All your words. I never said "most". Some do, and no one can predict who, 'though some indication may show early. Hurting people is not far after torturing or killing pets.

Or as you say, "I think you have difficulty responding to straightforward remarks"

I have heard this before in animal abuse cases

So hunters are prone to be people hurters?

By your own convoluted logic, since hurting people comes after torure or killing of pets, which include animals, then all hunters are a problem.

Why did you make the jump from pets to hunting?That was quite the stretch.

WWWTT

[guyser]

Why did you make the jump from pets to hunting?That was quite the stretch.

WWWTT

never mind

Edited March 31, 2011 by guyser

[Shwa]

So hunters are prone to be people hurters?

By your own convoluted logic, since hurting people comes after torure or killing of pets, which include animals, then all hunters are a problem.

guyser, guyser, guyser

Crediting Saipan with any type of "logic" - convoluted or not - is as generous as one can get. Your MLW benevolence is noted.

[eyeball]

Prohibition today sponsors and funds the existance of a multi billion dollar organized crime industry, and we needlessly criminalize millions of people.

This is a major structural problem, and throwing more resources at the system without fixing it, is like replacing the fuel pump on a car that doesnt even have tires.

Bingo.

[Saipan]

never mind

Well, then don't says that. It makes even indians look bad.

[Saipan]

Prohibition creates an extremely lucrative industry that honest regulated businesmen are not allowed to participate in, and provides a revenue stream that is used to sponsor a whole host of other criminal activity.

We can see that best in liberal ideas of constantly punishing lawabiding firearm owners while real criminals are laughing their head off.

Its no different than prohibition of alcohol was earlier in the last century.

Exactly.

[Scotty]

Last night I came upon an episode of W5. Together with the Automobile Protection Association, they planted perfectly good cars in dozens of automotive repair shops in Toronto and Calgary. There were hidden cameras in the cars, and they recorded, as expected, the level of deceit, fraud and illegality common to this industry. Basically, from this and previous such 'secret shopper' efforts I've seen it's safe to say most mechanics are fraud artists.

And it's not like they need to care either. It's not like they need to worry about the police marching in and arresting them. They don't care that they're exposed. They're not embarrassed by it. They're like "Yeah, so what? Get lost." Nor is this simply a few individuals at work. It's clear that their managers, and that the bosses at HQ, including Canadian Tire, couldn't care less that their blatant fraud is shown in all its dank truth. They know that they can lie, cheat and steal from customers with impunity. They know they face no problems from the law, despite the fact they are, unquestionably guilty of fraud.

This is the kind of things that drives me nuts, where society deteriorates to the point that not just individuals, but organizations and corporations routinely, day after day, break the law without the slightest fear of anyone doing anything about it. In a well run society, every one of those mechanics would have been marched out in handcuffs by police to be charged with theft and fraud.

So yes, we do need more prisons. And we need more police and more judges. Because if you're not willing to pay the taxes for a system to keep people like this in check, well, you're going to pay anyway, every time you take your car in to be checked or repaired. As fraud and theft is ignored, it grows in scope and poisons a society. And the answer to that is to kick people like this in the ass so that their brethren get the message. Close down shops which routinely defraud customers. Don't tell me you wouldn't love to see bailiffs move in and close down an entire Canadian Tire store on the basis of repeated fraud. I know I'd love to see it. Locally, the Canadian Tire's have had a reputation for fraud for years. That's why I never take my car there and never shop at their stores.

But it's not like there's any real alternative. Repair shops are mostly crooks, and the dealerships are just as bad. And that's what happens when as a society we simply ignore fraud, telling ourselves its too small-time to bother about.

[eyeball]

But it's not like there's any real alternative. Repair shops are mostly crooks, and the dealerships are just as bad. And that's what happens when as a society we simply ignore fraud, telling ourselves its too small-time to bother about.

But without premature obsolescence our economy and way of life as we know it would collapse. What are you, some kind of communist?

And my God man, there are people smoking pot who's back's the state should be jumping all over instead. You really need to get your priorities straight.

[Scotty]

But without premature obsolescence our economy and way of life as we know it would collapse. What are you, some kind of communist?

And my God man, there are people smoking pot who's back's the state should be jumping all over instead. You really need to get your priorities straight.

I'm not sure why you feel this is a source of amusement unless it's that you've given up any hope of honesty or integrity in this country and find it amusing that anyone else is still affronted by in-your-face fraud and theft.

[eyeball]

I'm not sure why you feel this is a source of amusement unless it's that you've given up any hope of honesty or integrity in this country and find it amusing that anyone else is still affronted by in-your-face fraud and theft.

I have to find it amusing otherwise I'd go nuts like you.

[scouterjim]

Ok - these sounds like good reasons to build prisons... maybe. And overcrowding of prisons would be another good reason.

I like good reasons, especially when backed up by solid evidence. Here you have an evidence to convince me that this idea of the CPC is a good one: can you provide evidence to do so ?

To add: Since I have just prompted you for what amounts to 'thread drift' - please do so on another thread dedicated to the prison question.

Thanks !

Now, now. Remember, according to the NDP, it is more important to find out WHY these poor people went wrong, and to protect their rights, than it is to punish them for wrong doings, or defend the rights of their victims.

[Scotty]

I have to find it amusing otherwise I'd go nuts like you.

I'm not nuts. I'm indignant, angry, even somewhat outraged, perhaps. My sense of order and justice are offended.

This kind of thing is by way of the expense that people don't think about when they talk about not wanting to spend more on police, on courts and on prisons. When fraud is so widespread that the perpetrators of it don't even fear exposure, how much money is stolen every year? Is there any doubt that auto repair shops steal far and away more than any spate of armed robberies or muggings? We wouldn't tolerate muggings if they happened dozens of times a day, so why do we tolerate this with such equanimity?

They're not alone, of course. How many people are robbed every year by contractors, or by used car salesman? Who is even bothering to try to police these people, when their fraud is so openly demonstrated? Not the police, that's for sure. They don't have the time, and they know the courts won't impose anything much but a fine anyway.

[xul]

And overcrowding of prisons would be another good reason.

Maybe the best way is to make the solution more "fiscal-conservative"---just as the solutions they used to offer---offshoring the prisoners to some third world countries so there is no need to spend tax$ on building new prisons...