Prisons and their need

[Scotty]

Scotty, on 29 March 2011 - 06:06 PM, said:

We have a high recidivism rate. We have too many people coming in and out of jails, committing crimes, largely going undetected (our criminal solution rates are poor), then finally getting caught and going back in. There is a cost involved in that crime, both to government and to individuals who are either victimized, or who have to pay higher prices for a wide variety of goods because of the criminal behaviour of others. Everything you buy at a store costs more because of thieves. Every piece of software you purchase costs more because of hackers. Your insurance costs more because of criminals.

Ok - these sounds like good reasons to build prisons... maybe. And overcrowding of prisons would be another good reason.

I like good reasons, especially when backed up by solid evidence. Here you have an evidence to convince me that this idea of the CPC is a good one: can you provide evidence to do so ?

To add: Since I have just prompted you for what amounts to 'thread drift' - please do so on another thread dedicated to the prison question.

Thanks !

[Scotty]

Ok - these sounds like good reasons to build prisons... maybe. And overcrowding of prisons would be another good reason.

I like good reasons, especially when backed up by solid evidence. Here you have an evidence to convince me that this idea of the CPC is a good one: can you provide evidence to do so ?

To add: Since I have just prompted you for what amounts to 'thread drift' - please do so on another thread dedicated to the prison question.

Thanks !

The parliamentary watchdog has stated that the cost of the Tories' new program would be an extra $1 billion per year in prison costs.

Facing against that, we have the cost of crime to victims in Canada, which is estimated at some $47 billion per year. In addition, there is an estimated $10 billion per year cost for security devices and protection.

The costs of the actual criminal justice system are $13.3 billion. Of that, almost $10 is the cost of policing, while the cost of prisons is currently about $1 billion. That puts the cost of the actual criminal court system, by default, at about $2 billion.

Corrections Canada, using very limited criteria, says the recidivism rate is 10%. However, an investigation by the Vancouver Sun shows it is closer to 37%. If we clamp down on those people who are repeat offenders, crime is virtually certain to fall, and with it the costs to society both in terms of the cost to victims, and the cost of the criminal court system. And, of course, the additional costs to society, like people being harmed by crime would lessen.

Crime costs re Justice Department

Recividism Rates

Edited March 29, 2011 by Scotty

[ToadBrother]

Corrections Canada, using very limited criteria, says the recidivism rate is 10%. However, an investigation by the Vancouver Sun shows it is closer to 37%. If we clamp down on those people who are repeat offenders, crime is virtually certain to fall, and with it the costs to society.

Because three-strikes-your-out rules have worked so well in the US.

[Scotty]

Because three-strikes-your-out rules have worked so well in the US.

As I've already explained to you, the socioeconomic and racial factors at play in the United States are not here, at least not nearly to the same extent. Further, I would dispute how intelligently those states which use the three strike rule have implemented that policy.

And of course, you really have no idea whatsoever whether or not it's helped or not. For all you know crime would be much higher without that three strike rule.

[WWWTT]

The parliamentary watchdog has stated that the cost of the Tories' new program would be an extra $1 billion per year in prison costs.

Facing against that, we have the cost of crime to victims in Canada, which is estimated at some $47 billion per year. In addition, there is an estimated $10 billion per year cost for security devices and protection.

Corrections Canada, using very limited criteria, says the recidivism rate is 10%. However, an investigation by the Vancouver Sun shows it is closer to 37%. If we clamp down on those people who are repeat offenders, crime is virtually certain to fall, and with it the costs to society.

Crime costs re Justice Department

Recividism Rates

What kind of crime is this?

Violent crime involving weapons,sexual assault,pedophiles or white collar crime.

Are these jail upgrades for white collar criminals?

WWWTT

[cybercoma]

As I've already explained to you, the socioeconomic and racial factors at play in the United States are not here, at least not nearly to the same extent.

Until you look at the reserves.

[Scotty]

What kind of crime is this?

Violent crime involving weapons,sexual assault,pedophiles or white collar crime.

Are these jail upgrades for white collar criminals?

WWWTT

We rarely put white collar criminals in prison.

[Scotty]

Until you look at the reserves.

The reserves are their own problem, it's true. But don't we divert natives into a separate 'healing' program now?

[Smallc]

The reserves are their own problem, it's true. But don't we divert natives into a separate 'healing' program now?

Well, I don't know about where you are, but here, aboriginals make up nearly 100% of the prison population. They are more likely to commit crimes, and more likely togo to jail when they do. Based on that, it seems we need to address the underlying problems (poverty, lack of education, Reserves where there is ^*%& all to do, etc.) rather than just throw people in jail.

[WWWTT]

We rarely put white collar criminals in prison.

And what is the cost of white collar crime to Canadians?

WWWTT

[Scotty]

Well, I don't know about where you are, but here, aboriginals make up nearly 100% of the prison population. They are more likely to commit crimes, and more likely togo to jail when they do. Based on that, it seems we need to address the underlying problems (poverty, lack of education, Reserves where there is ^*%& all to do, etc.) rather than just throw people in jail.

I'm not going to dispute that the reserves are a huge challenge, and that crime involving aboriginals stems in no small part from the failed societies in which they are raised. But I don't think we can just throw up our hands and give up on protecting Canadian victims until we can solve the mess of the reserves.

Because let's face it, the reserves pose a complex problem in no small measure due to a variety of shared jurisdictions but opposing interests. So the social problems are not about to be solved, probably in our generation. At the same time crime is a real issue, and recidivism shows that certain individuals are responsible for a very disproportionate share of it.

So do we want those individuals bouncing and out of prisons, using expensive criminal justice system resources every time, hurting people every time, or do we want to lock them away to help keep the rest of us safe?

Every time some two-bit burglar gets arrested and I read about it, it turns out the guy is charged with about twenty two separate burglaries. How many people found their lives interrupted by this, not to mention the damage to their residences, the insurance costs, the theft of property, the injuries? We put the little punk in prison, and he's out in another six months and doing it all again. How does that make sense?

[Scotty]

And what is the cost of white collar crime to Canadians?

WWWTT

I'm not your answer machine, buddy.

[Smallc]

I'm not saying we shouldn't put people in jail, and sometimes for longer than they are now. I'm just saying that isn't the only thing we need to do.

[Scotty]

I'm not saying we shouldn't put people in jail, and sometimes for longer than they are now. I'm just saying that isn't the only thing we need to do.

Oh I agree. I'd like a major reform of how we incarcerate people, too. I'd like to see it made more humane, and at the same time less expensive. That means prisoners have to work, just like the rest of us. But we should be able to make prisons more tolerable for long-term or permanent prisoners. Ie, we don't always have to keep men and women completely separate.

[Smallc]

Oh I agree. I'd like a major reform of how we incarcerate people, too. I'd like to see it made more humane, and at the same time less expensive. That means prisoners have to work, just like the rest of us.

Actually, prisoners do work, all of the time, at least in provincial jail.

[Scotty]

Actually, prisoners do work, all of the time, at least in provincial jail.

Then we're not doing it properly. Because if those prisoners are working, and their daily wage rates are about $7, how is it we aren't making enough money off them to offset the cost of their incarceration?

You know a factory in Canada that couldn't turn a big profit paying its workers $7 a day?

[Saipan]

Are these jail upgrades for white collar criminals?

YES!

It's why people are afraid to go out after dark.

[Saipan]

Another reason are duck hunters.

But Liberals already solved that problem. For mere $2 Billion we register their guns, 'cause duck hunters are the real problems. See Elmer Fudd and other gangsters.

[blueblood]

Then we're not doing it properly. Because if those prisoners are working, and their daily wage rates are about $7, how is it we aren't making enough money off them to offset the cost of their incarceration?

You know a factory in Canada that couldn't turn a big profit paying its workers $7 a day?

And unfortunately amnesty international would have a hissy fit of biblical proportions. Which would put the kibosh on a good idea.

[William Ashley]

Prisons ARE NOT the answer.

1. Canada needs to make work camps - camps that allow prisoners to earn money for their release. And camps that allow in demand skills to be learned so that jobs are available to give criminals an option other than crime for status and survival.

2 Canada needs to give the option of death for willing convicts.

3. Canada needs to reform the criminal code changing it into a simple SERIOUS CRIME vs. Social Annoyance. Serious crimes are crimes such as rape and murder and maiming. Social Annoyances are everything else. The Serious crimes should be atleast 10 year terms, if they are not "random and non premeditated or repeat offences" and shoudl be reviews for relase (life setences). Non intentional serious crimes should be reviewed every 5 years. Social Annoyances should be "probationary" either restitutive in society (with work camps for the unemployed and poor) for first time offences, repeat offences would be a sort of 3 strikes system the the probationary period would at first be 2.5 year (but all restitution must be paid before release from the sentence), 5 years minimum for second offences (with parole/ public release after 2.5 years still restitution must be paid) and 10 years with parole at five for 3rd time offences. - 20 years for 4 (10 year probation) and 40 years for 5(should the person be that old and so on) (2.5+2.5+5+10(minimum of 20 years for 3 repeat offences of social annoyances) that turns to 40, and 80 years for the 4th and 5th repeat social annoyance. The work camps would be graded also. level 1 would be a minimum type facility work camp - level 2 would be remote for repeat offenders. level 3 would be northern for serious offenders (non intentional and three time offenders) level 4 would be isolated for "serious intentional offenders" each camp being specific to the type of crime so one for rapists one for murderers and one for maimers. "Life term petty offenders would be put in the 4th class" (those serving 20 year sentences or more (4 repeat petty offences multi even after previous disposition elapsed) The level 4 camps would allow a portion of earnings to be spent in camp with the rest going to repay victims and society. (people who have 5 offences may be mixed in with one of the other types at random)

The point in all this is that - prisons are not the answer, we need work camps - and a division between "real" dangerous people, and stupid crooks that are socially and morally corrupt or underprivleged. We need to set up petty crooks with a clean chance in life that provides them with a life, without a need for victimization.

All convicted criminals would also pay into a "unsolved crime" levy, that would be divided among all criminals. To pay for restitution of victims that have not found the perpetrator, or the perpetrator is deceased.

Likewise criminals would pay a crime levy - that would pay for the cost of crimimals in terms of programs offerings and policing costs (like union dues) Criminals would only pay this for the period of their restitution - (a minimum of 2.5 years) - but in cases of longer terms the levy would last the same period.

Edited March 30, 2011 by William Ashley

[bloodyminded]

The reserves are their own problem, it's true. But don't we divert natives into a separate 'healing' program now?

They're disproportionately (in terms of population) federal and (often) provincial inmates. They're not getting any sort of free ride in the justice system.

[Smallc]

Then we're not doing it properly. Because if those prisoners are working, and their daily wage rates are about $7, how is it we aren't making enough money off them to offset the cost of their incarceration?

They keep the money, and they use it to buy things in prison. If they behave, they get better jobs that pay more. If they don't, they literally clean up shit.

[Keepitsimple]

As you've implied Scotty - the PBO and opposition only focus on costs - and ignores the savings.

Take the 2/3 for 1 credit for example. It's common practice for lawyers to stretch out pre-trial incarceration so that the extra time is taken off their sentence. This puts an extra strain on Provincially financed holding facilities. It also clogs up the court systems with motions and delays to drag out the trial dates. Without the benefit of the 2/3 for 1 credit, those who are charged will opt for a speedy trial to get things over with. Perhaps we'll get a few more guilty pleas right off the bat. There's plenty of savings to be had but they are difficult to estimate.

Same with repeat offenders. Putting them away for 3 years instead of giving them 3 separate 1 year sentences saves all sorts of money in policing, courts and other administration - not to mention the savings to victims and society as a whole. How many times have you heard "he's got a record as long as your arm".

Comparing Canada to the US in any way is a straw man argument. We are NOT the US. Their huge number of dense cities have spawned inner-city problems that Canada simply doesn't have and hopefully, will never have.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Keepitsimple

[Jerry J. Fortin]

They keep the money, and they use it to buy things in prison. If they behave, they get better jobs that pay more. If they don't, they literally clean up shit.

Work should be a privilege for them. Violent offenders should have nothing more than solitary confinement.

[bloodyminded]

Work should be a privilege for them. Violent offenders should have nothing more than solitary confinement.

Extended periods of solitary confinement constitutes torture. It not only makes inmates unhinged and delusional, but raises the likelihood of violent behaviour.

Maybe we shouild pull out their fingernails. Or we could make use of Rape rooms. The sky's the limit.