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Non-black students may boycott Africentric school, students warn


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Hern I do not want you going anywhere. That is the point. You want to separate which is segregation not me. You keep saying most people can'tfunction well in a different culture. No that is not true. That is your subjective opinion-you speak for yourself then project it on others.

I believe you believe what you are saying is best for black people and you believe you are protecting black people from failure. I think you are wrong. Not because you are black. I believe you are wrong because I am a minority as are most Canadians and we have been given a privilege so few have on this planet and that is to function well with other cultures.

Martin Luther King came to my synagogue in 1963. I was very very young. He spoke from his heart.He understood what we felt to be Jewish as a people not a religious concept. He reached out and grabbed our hearts and appealed to our minds and souls as a black man, as a practicing Christian and as a human being. He was all three at once and it made a difference for me.

I grew up with many heroes. Maurice Richard, Jean Beliveau, Muhammed Ali, Doug Harvey, French, Irish, Wasp, name the religion or minority.

Many are like me. We faced being beaten up and ridiculed but we fought back and gained respect that way and we became close friends with the very people who started off attacking us.

Its life.I can not imagine being the Jew I am without my non Jewish role models. My family came to be everything my ancestors dreamed of because of righteous gentiles along the way and a legal system once racist, that evolved to what it is today, sure with problems, but inclusive.

I embrace British laws and respect them for what they have allowed me now to have in Canada.

I embrace the vets my Dad fought side by side with of every kind of people, who fought for freedom. When you are with war vets, you realize their blood/sacrifice transcends any cultural differences.

I doubt you can understand what I say but its not go away, its come here, sit down and have a beer. Stop portraying yourself as weak and in need of separating. That is b.s.

I despise separatism in Quebec because I believe if the French Quebecers had separated they could have never played in a greater world and shown the Anglo world they were as good if not better. Maurice Richard symbolizes a pride all minorities should have in themselves and showed you bloody well fight to get your respect at times but you will prevail.

Any anglo hockey fan knows what I mean.They respected him just as French Quebecers could embrace Anglos like Howie Morenz, George Vezina Harvey,Sawchuck. Makita, Bucyk, Esposito, Duff, Mahovolich, Conacher, Horton.

This country is made up of minorities helping each other and transcending fear of one another.

Seperating blacks in their own schools is segregation, and its rejected by the majority of blacks in Toronto that is a fact as was demonstrated by the lack of support for the idea. It is a backwords step.

It started to to try help aboriginal children and gay children and I don't think in the real world hatred goes away because you hide children from it and try repaint the world one colour. That is denial. It's self defeating behaviour.

In an ideal world, none of us would have to create special measures to protect ourselves from threat of each other.History has shown that is not always possible In Canada we have that possibility.

You want to break down the mosaic and create self centered inbred, isolated ghettoes, minorities like me will fight you because we think you deserve better than the place you put yourself in.

No do not ask me to encourage you to hide from me. Stand side by side. If you do not want that then I have the right to say, no we can't build a country if people like you demand you operate as an island.

It's not how nations are built and those people you call white and I call gentiles are people I choose to respect. If some hate me because I am a Jew, thanks I can handle that. I don't need a special school where I only am told only about Jews.Nonsense. I will reach out to and respect gentiles and compromise at times and show them the generosity they have shown me. The fact that some are idiots-so what? My people have our share of idiots. We all do. Its life.

This minority asks for no privileges. Thanks. I can wait in line with the rest. I can handle that.I have a piece of bread and someone is hungry I share it. I don't give a damn who they are if they are hungry.That is what I was taught by many people of many cultures.

Mr. Rue, I understand you don't want black people going anywhere, this has been the view of white supremacy, for a very long time. Note, one doesn't have to be white to embrace white supremacy. Plenty of black DO to. And just because one is white, doesn't mean one is a racist or embraces white supremacy either.

Segregation doesn't equal seperation. Seperation is the voluntary seperation of equals. Like canada and the usa. Segregation is an unequal racialized sytem which only pretends to be equal while offering preferential treatment to one race over another. You are in favour of the latter, I the former. You want to sepearate blacks in Canada from one another and force "integration" violating their rights to freedom to assemble with other blacks in the same school under an afrocentric program. What could be more divisive on race than that?

I want proof most people function as well as home cultures. this is counter to most people's experiences.

Other minorities aren't treatted the same way as blacks. In fact no two minority groups are treated alike. As if blacks should be thankful to be in canada, a nation who enslaved their ancestors, and discriminated against them openly until the 1980s? Gimme abreak.

Most cultures in Toronto hang around their own and stick to their own, with their own cultural schools and systems. Blacks were the only ones who made any efffort to integrate and have been hurt very badly by it and screwed very badly by it. They have been attacked psychologically and made into victims. When all you do is show blacks as slaves in schools and whites as conquerors, what does that tell black students? You are nothing.

I note jews have their own jew schools. I don't see you saying to close them down. Is this not a case of do as I say not as I do? Seems quiet hypocritical for jews to be pushing black students into a system where jews don't even want their own children doesn't it?

Blacks are very weak in the city. 10% of the population and the only black city councilor is a white supremacist. What could possibly be weaker than that?

Blacks need seperation because no other race will treat them fairly in schooling, they've all been trained to hate blacks since births in their respective cultures. And it isn't just whites, chinese, indians, koreans, italians, jews, whatever race you want to name they hate blacks, except maybe aboriginals. You want to see what they do to blacks in Israel right now? And I am suppose to believe the same jew beating black jews in israel is going to give a black christian a fair shot? And its not just jews, arabs, chinese, you name it are just as bad.

I can understand why the Quebecers want to seperate. If the white english won't even treat a white french fairly, then how can a black ever hope for a fair chance?

Blacks are not treated like the other minorities, they are widely dispised by the general non-black population, especially here in Toronto. While Canada may work well for chinese or koreans or jews and arabs, it isn't working well for blacks. Not the school system, not the employment, not anything really.

The school endures wide support from blacks and has a waiting list. Seperating blacks from other blacks to make them a perpetual minority is ALSO segregation. And many blacks have falesly bought into the idea that the same whites and mainly non-whites who call them racial slurs are going to treat them like humans. Which is a fantasy that more and more blacks wake up from each day. 30 years ago there was no talk of africentric schools. What changed from then to now? Blacks who've gone through the system are waking up and say wait a minute, I got screwed here. well I am not letting my child get screwed like I did. Afrocentric schools.

Hatred doesn't go away in the real world. Blacks in Toronto are still attacked and face widespread anti-black hatred in the city as desmond cole elegantly points out in the torontoist. The problem becomes when gays, aboriginals, blacks and a host of other minorities start dropping out and getting kicked out of school due to racist behaviour. At least when they are adults they will have better abilities to deal with anti-black racism. As students they are near damn defensiless from racial attacks at such a vulnerable age. Black students shouldn't have to be worrying about being racially attacked from teachers, students and anti-black curriculums erasing their history and calling them subhumans and slurs, they should be worrying about school work and having fun with other black kids.

No one is denying racism will go away. By removing yourself from an anti-black toxic environment the hope is you'll have enough self esteem by the time you are an adult that you will be able to defend yourself against the racism and not drop out of school because you'll have already graduated.

The cultural mosaic is by definition "isolated ghettos" you got the french ghetto, the catholic ghetto, the girl school ghetto etc. The cultural moasaic means you can be a jew and live in your jew neighbourhood, with a nice jew wife and 4 pretty blonde hair blue eyed jew children and go to a nice jew school and be surrounded by other jew like you and not have to worry about being attacked by some white supremacist. Andblacks want the same. The cultural mosaic is not a black kid going to a white run school where they wave confederate flags and beat him up and call him the n-bomb and the white teachers and principal turns a blind eye or try to get the white attackers off easy. If that is the cultural mosaic, most blacks want no part of it.

Jews are not blacks. It isn't reasonable comparison at all. Most people can't even tell a jew different from a white gentile. Further even if you did, the stereotypes is jews, chinese, indians are good in schools and blacks are bad. So what is the teacher going to go into that class and do. Assume the black kid is bad, jew chinese and indian good. Tamil is bad. Pakistani good. Latino is bad along with portuguese, but the italian is good.

I think blacks are tired of being victims and want control over their own education. They don't want people who hate them in control of their children anymore.

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Rue. I'm also a minority. You said it perfectly.

Why would it matter if you are a minority. As far as the treatment of blacks go in Toronto, the whites are on average better than the arabs, chinese, indians, jews and koreans and other races who have been trained from birth to hate blacks in their own respective cultures. At least the white people pretend to be believe in a degree of equality in principle. You want to hear what chinese people think just go and ask a chinese child about black people, you'll hear all the real opinions of what chinese canadians think of blacks. And it isn't positive. It is far worse than what the white child would say, guaranteed.

On the other hand, at least the chinese are more honest in that they openly admit their hatred of blacks outside corporate settings.

Edited by H10
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White parents teach their white children to hate their white skin. They teach them to feel guilty about being white.

Maybe they do, do this, and it clearly has negative effects on white children with self esteem issues and all particularly the whole white male bashing thing. Two wrongs don't make a right. Bashing whites isn't astep up from bashing blacks its just another step further back. But at least when the white children go to schools, they see positive white examples with white teachers, principals, whites in all the textbooks who have achieved things of significance and positive white self reinforcement and the rules at the board level are written by white people who sharre their common white culture, most of whom aren't making them guilty for being white. They turn on the tv and see a news reporter who is white like them reporting on the prime minister and opposition leaders all of whom are white. They show some random doctor on a health report and he is white, they show a super hero and the super hero who saves the day is also white. At the end of the day, they aren't teaching whites to be victims like they are trying to teach blacks to accept second class citizenship and perpetual victimhood.

And if they do cast a black it is usually a villian or dies in the first 5 minutes or is portrayed in some other negative light.

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Hern you clearly do not get Jews lol. You think Jews are not visible and all look white?Lol.Talk about racist stereotypes.

Listen H Jews do not get tax funding for private schools. They pay for it privately as do other minorities. The issue here is issuing public tax money to implement segregation. Your attempt to say you are not segregating blacks because they ask to be segregated is illogical but I get your reasoning. If you ask to be placed in a ghetto voluntarily you think its different then someone telling you to remain in the ghetto.

Nonsense. The fact you choose to segregate yourself doesn't magically change what it is-isolationism, separatism.

Your responses continue to make subjective stereotypes about whites and blacks that reflect you view of life which you assume others agree with.

You made the statement all blacks are in support of segregation-you prove it. You made that sweeping claim, not me. Don't play the tactic of making statements and demanding people accept them as true unless they can prove them wrong. Not working.

By the way I never stated blacks are Jews.I did state I am a minority. Gays, Ukrainians, Japanese, Chinese,Irish, Indo-Pakistani,Fillipino, Scottish, Welsh, English, French, Arab, I don't claim they are the same, but they all have experiences as minorities and no the majority do not want special schools. I do not have to prove that-its a fact. They haven't asked. Don't confuse by the way minorities choosing in their private lives to send their kinds to learn their culture and language in community centres, churches, etc.

That is not the issue and never was. The issue is about using tax money to create a school that necessarily as you do define blacks as disabled socially and in need of crutches. They are not. That is your projection.The fact you limp does not mean all blacks limp.

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Hern you clearly do not get Jews lol. You think Jews are not visible and all look white?Lol.Talk about racist stereotypes.

Listen H Jews do not get tax funding for private schools. They pay for it privately as do other minorities. The issue here is issuing public tax money to implement segregation. Your attempt to say you are not segregating blacks because they ask to be segregated is illogical but I get your reasoning. If you ask to be placed in a ghetto voluntarily you think its different then someone telling you to remain in the ghetto.

Nonsense. The fact you choose to segregate yourself doesn't magically change what it is-isolationism, separatism.

Your responses continue to make subjective stereotypes about whites and blacks that reflect you view of life which you assume others agree with.

You made the statement all blacks are in support of segregation-you prove it. You made that sweeping claim, not me. Don't play the tactic of making statements and demanding people accept them as true unless they can prove them wrong. Not working.

By the way I never stated blacks are Jews.I did state I am a minority. Gays, Ukrainians, Japanese, Chinese,Irish, Indo-Pakistani,Fillipino, Scottish, Welsh, English, French, Arab, I don't claim they are the same, but they all have experiences as minorities and no the majority do not want special schools. I do not have to prove that-its a fact. They haven't asked. Don't confuse by the way minorities choosing in their private lives to send their kinds to learn their culture and language in community centres, churches, etc.

That is not the issue and never was. The issue is about using tax money to create a school that necessarily as you do define blacks as disabled socially and in need of crutches. They are not. That is your projection.The fact you limp does not mean all blacks limp.

I don't think all jews look white but most the canadian jews I have encountered look white. And most Canadian jews do identify as white, probably well over 90%. And if I had said jews were not white, what would you have said? "You're racsist!" LOL

Look, its not just jews, everyone gets tax money back for paying for private schools.

Alot of minorities like catholics, french, italians etc. aren't paying for their "public school segregation".

So your issue is more with public school systems not being highly uniformly eurocentric of a particular brand across the board?

So your argument is that by segregating blacks from each other is not segregation? You are dividing people on the basis of race?

In fact it seems what passes as "integration" today looks alot more like segregation, where all the whites divide and move away from the non-whites and divide themselves into a host of publicly funded white cultural schools for catholics, protestants, english, french, italians, greeks, etc.

If your definition of a ghetto is a group of similar people being around each other then your argument has no leg to stand to on. Plenty of whites and jews, and asians and other groups are living in ghettos in this country. In fact even the rich people are living in ghettos surrounded by mostly other rich in their rich private (and public) schools where they donate money. You think a school in forest hill or the other millionaire neighbourhoods are diverse by socioeconomic status? They aren't.

You are using a false definition of segregation to avoid actually discussing the issue. And many other posters have done this too. It is called a strawman. You aren't claiming "the privately funded" jewish schools and muslims schools are segregation are you? O but because the africentric school gets public funding it is segregation right? So you are ok with private segregation in private schools just not in taxpayer funded schools? Even though the parents recover their tuition money and the schools get tax credits from the government and thus still technically partially funded by government? Girls and boys public funded schools not segregation, why? Then throw on the list of white cultural and religious schools getting public funding for their segregation along with the asians. Can you see why your argument is problematic here. I've been to schools in markham and the north east side of toronto that are chinese cultural, publicly funded schools with instruction in chinese and everything is chinese and asian centric. Yet this isn't treat as "segregation" why?

I'd agree it was separation, but people have the right to voluntarily separate and identify with their own culture in Canada, freedom of association and part of the cultural mosaic to stick to your own kind.

What are the jews who pay thousands of dollars to send their kids to jew-centric schools saying of this

Expensive it may be, but nobody is demanding Jewish children attend day schools. Families clearly believe it is money well spent, if it means their children are raised in a Jewish milieu with exposure to Jewish history, religion, culture and thought. - See more at: http://www.cjnews.com/news/day-school-fees-vary-across-canada#sthash.w72kvtbo.dpuf[/size]

Now here is the kicker. You pretend jew schools and other private cultural schools AREN'T tax payer funded. UNTRUE.

Tuition fees across the country vary, but generally are less than in Toronto. In Quebec, where the province funds 50 per cent of the secular portion of the education curriculum, the savings are more than $5,000 per child - See more at: http://www.cjnews.com/news/day-school-fees-vary-across-canada#sthash.w72kvtbo.dpuf[/size]

In Ontario, parents get a tax credit for fees covering the religious portion of a school’s curriculum, which can amount to a few thousand dollars. [/size]

In Manitoba, however, all independent schools receive 50 per cent of the provincial funding that public schools receive per student.

- See more at: http://www.cjnews.com/news/day-school-fees-vary-across-canada#sthash.w72kvtbo.dpuf[/size]

B.C. has four categories of independent schools. The first and largest category includes religious schools and speciality private schools such as Waldorf and Montessori, which are not now funded in this province.

Those schools receive 50% funding for their students.

A second category of private schools receives 35% funding.

The last two categories are schools that wish to remain independent of government and therefore receive no government funding.

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/09/29/bc-model-of-school-funding-makes-sense-for-ontario

Alberta:

Full funding to faith-based and charter public school boards, and 60 per cent funding to private schools delivering provincial curriculum.

http://www.cbc.ca/ontariovotes2007/features/features-faith.html

Private schools get public funds

Two private schools – one of them a religious-based university – are getting more than $1.5 million from the provincial government to fix up or construct new soccer fields.

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/2009/08/21/private_schools_get_public_funds.html

The issue has never been about private schools getting public funds. When you look at it critically, there is no good argument against africentric schooling. The opposition to it has and is and was and continues to be as it has always been, about a hatred of black people. The fear that if black students get into a school without anti-black racism, surrounded by other blacks, they'll succeed as a group, and be proud of who they are and surpass the other non-black students and the other races will get "left behind".

So are all the seperate schools isolationism and sepeatism? I just don't understand the point, with over 80+ speciality and cultural religious publicly funded schools in the city of Toronto, I struggle to see what makes the one catered towards african canadian students so much worse than the ones catered to greeks or other groups. I never claimed all blacks support segregation, but the fact that the overwhelming majority of the 1 billion or so black people choose to live amongst nations that are majority black and neighbourhoods that are majority black should make it more than abundant they aren't interested in living around people who don't look like them. Its almost so obvious a truth that blacks prefer to be around their own kind as do most other cultures you simply lack the experience of what is so evident to others.

Walk into any racially mixed high school and you will see black youth seated together in the cafeteria. Of course, it's not just the black kids sitting together-the white, Latino, Asian Pacific, and, in some regions, American Indian youth are clustered in their own groups, too. The same phenomenon can be observed in college dining halls, faculty lounges, and corporate cafeterias. What is going on here? Is this self-segregation a problem we should try to fix, or a coping strategy we should support? How can we get past our reluctance to talk about racial issues to even discuss it? And what about all the other questions we and our children have about race? Beverly Daniel Tatum, a renowned authority on the psychology of racism, asserts that we do not know how to talk about our racial differences. Using real-life examples and the latest research, Tatum presents strong evidence that straight talk about our racial identities-whatever they may be-is essential if we are serious about facilitating communication across racial and ethnic divides.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Kids-Sitting-Together-Cafeteria/dp/0465083617

It is something so evident, I'd have to conclude you simply didn't pay attention or didn't notice this or perhaps you yourself live in a jew ghetto or a white ghetto or a rich ghetto devoid of any real diversity so you only see a few token non-whites here or there.

The irony of it all is putting the different groups in the same building ie "integration" breeds the most amount of segregation. Thus there is no benefit here, to having blacks in the eurocentric schools. The evidence shows they aren't interacting in general with non-blacks anyways. They are self segregating.

Black students on white campuses are already alienated, segregated and isolated.

"ON PREDOMINANTLY WHITE CAMPUSES, BLACK STUDENTS EMPHASIZE FEELINGS OF ALIENATION, SENSED HOSTILITY, RACIAL DISCRIMINATION, AND LACK OF INTEGRATION. ON HISTORICALLY BLACK CAMPUSES, BLACK STUDENTS EMPHASIZE FEELINGS OF ENGAGEMENT, CONNECTION, ACCEPTANCE, AND EXTENSIVE SUPPORT AND ENCOURAGEMENT. CONSISTENT WITH ACCUMULATED EVIDENCE ON HUMAN DEVELOPMENT, THESE STUDENTS, LIKE MOST HUMAN BEINGS, DEVELOP BEST IN ENVIRONMENTS WHERE THEY FEEL VALUED, PROTECTED, ACCEPTED, AND SOCIALLY CONNECTED."

Walter R Allen

“The Color of Success”

Quoted in:

Beverly Daniel Tatum, Ph.D.

“Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?”

national study on black college students

"Black students who attend predominantly black schools tend to have higher average grades, a richer learnining environment, better relationships with faculty members, exhibit better cognitive development and display greater effort and engage in more academic activities than black students who attend white schools. In Black schools, black students show better social adjustment, have more extensive social support networks, show greater social involvement and engage in more organizational activities." Jacqueline Fleming "Sats and black students review of higher education 25, 2002 281-96, 287

Its not in black students objective interest to be in white schools. Schools should be aimed at results, not political correctness to make whites feel less racist.

"White and black students were found to have better reading scores when their teachers look like them, the study showed. In addition, these students, including Asian/Pacific Island students, receive better math scores when taught by teachers sharing their race.

Anna Egalite, a postdoctoral fellow at Kennedy School of Government in Harvard University who co-authored the study, told The Huffington Post that the study adds to the increasing evidence that diversity in the teacher workforce is essential. "

http://themartinezfoundation.org/news/

Funny, you make statements that require no proof, they are unchallengable facts. I am the only one who has to provide proof. It is not a fact the majority don't want special schools, the fact is the majority send their kids to special schools. From the french to the english to the catholic. Come to think of it, there aren't any non-speciality schools. even the english public school system is shocker, catered to english people. The issue is one of fairness here. You can't have 6 greek schools in toronto, a german school board, a roman italian catholic school board, ukranian catholic schools etc. but then turn around and get mad when another ethnic group (african and carribeean) open one for their culture. If the blacks came from Greece, and all greeks were black people, this wouldn't be a thread, because greeks have their own schools and you haven't raised issue with it. Only the black one. This is the very definition of racism. You oppose africentric schools solely because its majority participants are blacks. The Greek school is also publicly funded. The facts from multiple studies I provided above clearly show blacks best perform around their own kind away from predominantly white institutions.

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Hern sorry I have been busy but I want to take the time to respond because you have a lot of passion for your positions and you have the right to expect a well thought out response. Just remember you may disagree with me but I debate you out of respect for your taking the time to debate.

You stated:

"..don't think all jews look white but most the canadian jews I have encountered look white. And most Canadian jews do identify as white, probably well over 90%. And if I had said jews were not white, what would you have said? "You're racsist!" LOL"

Look I do not think you were being deliberately ignorant when you made your Jewish comments. I understand we look white. That was the point. What we LOOK like to you is a subjective perception. In fact we are not all white and in fact I wish you good luck finding two Jews that can agree on anything!

Lol. My point is we Jews are defined like blacks at times, like we are some glob, some uniform material that all looks the same. You know damn well blacks are not black, they range from purple to damn near grey and they could have any culture there is mixed in them. More to the point genetically, biology has taught us a dark skinned black man can have more in common genetically with a blonde haired blue eyed white guy then another black person.

Race was constructed as a social definition. It was created at a time when we defined people by skin tone, nose shape, hair texture, lip size. Science has shown these are secondary or meaningless features when defining humans. For some of us though it prevails.

My point and we will disagree of course is, I think there is as much diversity within the black community as there is within the greater community of all humans and trying to lump blacks into on category based on secondary physical characteristics which is what you are arguing to me is absurd.

You stated:L

"look, its not just jews, everyone gets tax money back for paying for private schools. "

I appreciate why you said the above. My point is we all can after school, send our children to places where they can learn culture specific to their family origins but in a public school, it should not pick and choose only certain cultures.

I criticize the fact that Catholic schools are allowed special designation for that reason. On the other hand as it now stands in Ontario, you can send a child to a Catholic school who is NOT Catholic and they can opt out of any religious activities.

I argue a school should teach all cultures and faiths and then you as a Christian, Greek, Irish, etc., whatever you feel is your designation, then as a family have the responsibility on your own terms and time to then supplement the public education and don't tell me it has to be done at the public school-it doesn't.

You states:A

"'A lot of minorities like catholics, french, italians etc. aren't paying for their "public school segregation".

I did not understand the above. French schools are designed to immerse children in the French language. French is an official language of Canada. Parents have the option to teach their kids French this way. Because French is an official language it is a responsibility of the state to teach it. Swahili, Hebrew, Greek, no those are languages we would pursue on our own.

You stated:

"So your issue is more with public school systems not being highly uniformly eurocentric of a particular brand across the board?"

No. Not at all. I have no idea what you are getting at but I have always argued our public school should reflect the values of Canada and that is;

1-aboriginal history and values; 2-British history and values; 3-French history and values; 4-the hostiry and values of the many peoples who have come to Canada and helped build it. In these categories I put politics, history, the relation these components have played in creating our laws and institutions.

With religion I believe it should be taught as a non denominational course teaching all the major religions and include atheism and agnosticism.

I do believe at an appropriate age,in sex education and then at another appropriate age, a diversity course teaching tolerance for people of different values.

I do not like the idea of seperate schools for gays, blacks, aboriginals, creative arts.

I know there has been success with aboriginal centric schools and in gay centric schools I personally though believe they are not the best way to deal with discrimination and assimilation issues, and if anything delay having to deal with them.

My perspective is not eurocentric. Its a minority who believes this country exists because of aboriginals, the French and the British as the building blocks of our laws and traditions and this includes Christian religion. As a Jew I would think it strange not to be able to understand Christianity or the British legal system or aboriginal history but call myself Canadian. As a Quebecer understanding the French connection was crucial. My Jewishness to me is a private matter not a public one. I am glad to explain and share it but for me my Jeiwshness is something that I only share outside my private domain if it contributes to a Canadian vision-a Canada first vision.

I grew up with a whole bunch of minorities and boring white Christians I like to call them. The fact that the vast majority of Canada remains Catholic and Christian is a given. Its very compatible with my faith. There were episodes in Canadian history where Christian politicians used their religion to justify anti semitism but it did not reflect on the religion just those individuals. The same Christian world that persecuted my ancestors and grandparents to flee here as refugees also created Christians who acted as Christians to save Jews and help my grandparents escape.

All minorities have similiar experiences. Everyone of us has stories of persecution but the British legal system allows us to accommodate them all and it can because it in turn borrowed certain aboriginal concepts of inclusivity.

You stated:

".. You think school in forest hill or the other millionaire neighbourhoods are diverse by socioeconomic status? They aren't. "

Dont be so quick to label and stereotype. I have lectured and been a speaker at the schools you think of and no not all the students are rich and white. Go look. Do certain schools reflect their neighbourhoods of course. In Mississauga where I live, many of the schools are very heavily populated by Indo Pakistani people. However you missed the point. Their curriculum is not Indo Pakistani centric. Their religious and cultural upbring is done in their mosques, temples, not the school.

You stated:

"You are using a false definition of segregation to avoid actually discussing the issue."

No I am not. I have argued I think your use of the word "seperation" is a semantic argument and is no different than segregation. Both keep blacks isolated from mainstream society. Whether someone welcomes being isolated or is forced to isolate to me is a moot point, either way I think it problematic and equally as defecive and so if anything I have not avoided discussion I am generating it and challenging you to understand whether someone chooses to be dettached or is forced to dettach, its a problem-that doesn't help build a common vision of Canada, either way it creates an island that doesn't assimilate but forms a resistance to the Canadian vision. I

You stated:

"And many other posters have done this too. It is called a strawman.'

No we have not. You use the word strawman incorrectly and pose it as if anyone who does not agree with you is wrong. No we are debating your position.

You asked:

"You aren't claiming "the privately funded" jewish schools and muslims schools are segregation are you?"

Yes. Its one thing to provide an after hours school for teaching religion, language or culture. However if you are talking about taking children out of the public school system in its entirety and placing them in a Jewish or Muslim centric school full time, yes I believe that is a form of segregation. I don' believe in it. I understand others do. I only speak for myself. I believe if you want to pay out of your own pocket not taxpayer's money to segregate your children for religious, cultural, political reasons, that is your right. I don't agree with it though for my children but I totally respect a parent willing to pay out of their own pocket. Why? Because those private school parents pay taxes to public schools as well. That is why and they do not ask taxpayers to pay for their children. Huge difference.

You statedd:

" O but because the africentric school gets public funding it is segregation right? "

No. Public funding of any school that excludes everyone but one type of people is for me unacceptable because I believe government should not discriminate for or against anyone. What makes a school segregated is not the taxes paying it which is a seperate issue, but the exlusions.

The Africancentric schools exclude by their very nature anythone outside their definition of what is culturally important. It segregates by focusing in on one type of people and exluding others. It is exclusive nature, its need to dettach and seperate from a neutral approach to a bias one, that segregates or as you call it, separates.

Taxes come from people of all values so must reflect neutrality. You want to take money from peope of all values to only uphold the ones you like, I believe people have the right to say, uh no, pay for that out of your own pocket otherwise don't expect us to fund discrimination in your favour.

"So you are ok with private segregation in private schools just not in taxpayer funded schools? "

No I am not.

You stated:

" Then throw on the list of white cultural and religious schools getting public funding for their segregation along with the asians."

The above makes no sense. First of all there is no such thing as "white" culture. That is a subjective term you created. There are many cultures within what you see as "white". In your world you think anyone with pale skin can be lumped into one category. I find that absurd. The last time I looked for example. Poles, Irish, Welsh, French, Beglian, Swedish, German were quite different in culture. Do they all get sunburned? Maybe. Is that a cultural value of course not.

Asians by the way do not ask for segregation. By that I think you mean Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Fillipino, Indonesian, Sri Lankan, Indian, Pakistani,

Turks, Arabs. certain Jewish people, Mongolians, Russians, on and on-you have any idea how diverse these people are in colour, language,

religion, customs, history. Good luck lumping them all in one because you think they all look yellow. Lol.

You stated:

".. but people have the right to voluntarily separate and identify with their own culture in Canada, freedom of association and part of the cultural mosaic to stick to your own kind. "

Sure you do. White supremacists like the KKK have been saying that for years. Knock yourself out. Put on a hood, burn crosses, have secret meetings and build walls around your village. Guess what, if you expect the Canadian government to fund you doing that think again. Now I understand your confusio. For years we paid separatists to sit in federal and proncial parliaments and call for the breaking down of Canada using the argument you use. Guess what some of us think having the government pay for their pensions now is ridiculous. There's a man called Lucien Bouchards. He now lives in California, retired being paid large pay cheques from the federal and Qubec provincial governments. Then we have Gilles Duceppes, doing the same.

Most of us Canadians will not fund your attempts to stick to your own kind. Also can I give you a friendly warning. If you stick to your own kind too much you may engage in incest and inter-breeding so be careful. Your children don't just get strange ideas but webbed fingers, sloping foreheads, unusual body features, etc.

"What are the jews who pay thousands of dollars to send their kids to jew-centric schools saying of this.."

Like Muslims and Christians who do the same, they said, if you fund blacks, with public tax money then why not us? Therein lies the problem.Where do you decide blacks have a right to public funding unless you agree every other ethnic group does. Then where does it stop?

In Toronto alone there are over 130 distinct ethno-cultural groups speaking over 84 languages and then add to that gays, women, transexuals, the disabled as other special interest categories. Good luck creating special schools for them all.

You procided this Quote:

"Expensive it may be, but nobody is demanding Jewish children attend day schools. Families clearly believe it is money well spent, if it means their children are raised in a Jewish milieu with exposure to Jewish history, religion, culture and thought. - See more at: http://www.cjnews.co...h.w72kvtbo.dpuf[/size]"

The above is not the issue. Expecting public funding for the above is.

You stated:

Now here is the kicker. You pretend jew schools and other private cultural schools AREN'T tax payer funded. UNTRUE.

Quote

Tuition fees across the country vary, but generally are less than in Toronto. In Quebec, where the province funds 50 per cent of the secular portion of the education curriculum, the savings are more than $5,000 per child - See more at: http://www.cjnews.co...h.w72kvtbo.dpuf[/size]

Quote

In Ontario, parents get a tax credit for fees covering the religious portion of a school’s curriculum, which can amount to a few thousand dollars. [/size]
In Manitoba, however, all independent schools receive 50 per cent of the provincial funding that public schools receive per student.
- See more at: http://www.cjnews.co...h.w72kvtbo.dpuf[/size]

Quote

B.C. has four categories of independent schools. The first and largest category includes religious schools and speciality private schools such as Waldorf and Montessori, which are not now funded in this province.

Those schools receive 50% funding for their students.
A second category of private schools receives 35% funding.
The last two categories are schools that wish to remain independent of government and therefore receive no government funding.


http://www.torontosu...nse-for-ontario

Quote

Alberta:

Full funding to faith-based and charter public school boards, and 60 per cent funding to private schools delivering provincial curriculum.

http://www.thestar.c...blic_funds.html"

None of the above in fact proves your point that taxpayers money is paying for segregated schools. In all the above cases the funding is not for a separated school but curriculum or a specific program not a separated school so your argument makes no sense.

However if you are asking me should governments allow people to get tax deductions for a portion of their private schooling-maybe-i am not sure-but giving a tax break in the sense you mentioned is not the same issue. That tax break is offered to all, not just some. In your proposition the tax colected only must be used on some people not all people so there is no equitable distribution.

My position remains the same. If you want to give all parents a tax break for private education that is not the issue. Give it to only some, it causes a problem.

You stated:

"The issue has never been about private schools getting public funds."

It sure has. I am not sure where you were but in Ontario it caused a huge uproar with people arguing what's good for blacks should be good for us

as well. Where were you?

You stated:

"When you look at it critically, there is no good argument against africentric schooling. "

Lol because you say so?

You stated:

"The opposition to it has and is and was and continues to be as it has always been, about a hatred of black people. "

No that is you engaging in a racist stereotype and an absurd one at that. Its been opposed by many of us because we feel its a discriminatory concept that segregates blacks and sets back an attempt to create a diverse cultural mosaic. What makes your comment so absurd is the majority of blacks are against it. Using your argument one is a self hating black because they don't want to be labelled as a disabled person in need of separation from whites to cope.

You stated:

"The fear that if black students get into a school without anti-black racism, surrounded by other blacks, they'll succeed as a group, and be proud of who they are and surpass the other non-black students and the other races will get "left behind"."

The above reflects your personal opinion which you try project on white people. Its not what anyone but you thinks and its absurd because do you really think blacks do not discriminate against other blacks because of their differences in skin colour, skin tone, facial features, language, country of origin religion, economic status-right in your world as long as someone has melatonin of any degree that are harmonious? Lol.

You asked again:

"So are all the seperate schools isolationism and sepeatism? "

Separation means dettachment necessarily. The moment you dettach you create a division. Its basic physics, math, sociology.

You stated:

"I just don't understand the point, with over 80+ speciality and cultural religious publicly funded schools.."

Yes you don't. What you call public funding is not public funding-you try equate a tax deduction with public funding and a deduction for one component of a curriculum with funding an entire school. You equate a tax benefit given on a non discriminatory basis with demanding taxes from all to only a selected group. You don;t understand because you mix and match concepts that are not the same in an attempt to state governments discriminate so its ok to discriminate. You use the two wrongs make a right argument. If others discriminate its only right you discriminate. I fail to see the strength in such an argument.

You stated:

"in the city of Toronto, I struggle to see what makes the one catered towards african canadian students so much worse than the ones catered to greeks or other groups."

Yes and you also fail to see Greeks have no publicallly funded Greak pubic school.

You stated:

" I never claimed all blacks support segregation, but the fact that the overwhelming majority of the 1 billion or so black people choose to live amongst nations that are majority black and neighbourhoods that are majority black should make it more than abundant they aren't interested in living around people who don't look like them. "

This has to be your most absurd statement yet. Do you care to explain why so many blacks die trying to get into Europe each day to escape their poverty? What a stupid thing to say. People would leave Africa in a minute to live in Canada if they had the means to get here.

You think all blacks are racist like you? They are victims of circumstance like all of us are. We are born into and unto a world with certain precondiitons we had no choice over. Now you make sweeping racist statements of all blacks?

Right they love each other in Africa. Tell that to the victims in Burundi, Rwanda, Mali, Malawi, Congo, Zimbabwe on and on. What you going to suggest blacks love blacks in Africa and hate whites and only kill each other because a white guy told them too/ How absurd.

You stated:

"Its almost so obvious a truth that blacks prefer to be around their own kind as do most other cultures you simply lack the experience of what is so evident to others."

The above reflects your own racist view. You can not and do not speak for anyone else.

You used this Quote"

"Walk into any racially mixed high school and you will see black youth seated together in the cafeteria. Of course, it's not just the black kids sitting together-the white, Latino, Asian Pacific, and, in some regions, American Indian youth are clustered in their own groups, too."

The fact that youth form packs based on similiar culture or minority status does not mean this is the way to create a society or that it makes it acceptable to fund such behaviour.

You clearly have missed the point because in your subjective world, you also fail to notice that the same youth can choose to remain with their own kind or assimilate with others and as they age the more they resist entering a larger sphere of networking the more they limit their chances of success.

Did it ever dawn on you I may have been a member of a Jewish organization but was also a member of non denominational organizations as well? Did it ever dawn on you some of those Latino or Black or White kids you think do not interact with one another do-they play on the same sports teams, get involved in committees, community and charity events, etc.? You see what you want to see. Gangs, youth group can be as rainbow as they are unilcultural. More to the point using your argument we should encourage kids to create ghettos and not inter-relate outside these ghettos. Yep that's a way to build a unified and just society.

The very phenomena you describe is called pack mentality. We humans are primates. As such we are pack animals and we form paks headed by Alpha males, and we define our packs by the colour of our fur, the number of spots or shape of spots or in the case of some us just like our cousins the baboons by our inflamed buttoxes and the number of coils our buttox has.

Be my guest. Join a pack and follow the Alpha Male, I guess in your case who, Louis Farakhan? Or some Neo Nazi?

You stated:

"It is something so evident, I'd have to conclude you simply didn't pay attention or didn't notice this or perhaps you yourself live in a jew ghetto or a white ghetto or a rich ghetto devoid of any real diversity so you only see a few token non-whites here or there."

Again what an absurd thing to state. You argue since I contend we should not become blinded to our own culture and limit ourselves to our own people, I can't see that other people have formed ghettos? Lol. It is the very reason I choose not be to be segragated I can see the diversity you can't. You see the world in black and whites not I-its the whole purpose of your agenda and arguments. What an illogical and absurd statement for you to sat,. It is precisely because I don't live in a ghetto I see them all as equally problematic in blocking out other perspectives past their own ghetto wals. If I limited my networking as you do, to just people with the same buttox structure, I could not survive.

.

You stated:

"The irony of it all is putting the different groups in the same building ie "integration" breeds the most amount of segregation. Thus there is no benefit here, to having blacks in the eurocentric schools. The evidence shows they aren't interacting in general with non-blacks anyways. They are self segregating."

There is in fact no evidence to suggest self-segregation is anything but temporary until people evolve to the next level of interaction. In fact what sociological studies have shown is pack mentality and the level of exlusivity in membership in the pack will change and expand the criteria for membership to avoid inbreeding.

Using your theory its natural to inbreed. That is absurd.

People coagulate to people of similar physical feature at a lower level of awareness. They then most certainly move on and evolve past that. If they did not we would have all died out.

You stated"

" Black students on white campuses are already alienated, segregated and isolated."

Yes and white students on black campuses are also alienated, segregated and isolated.

The fact that this happens does not make it something we should strive to encourage as you suggest.

Finally in regards to your articles that show black students do better when they are segragated there are in fact just as many if not more studies that show the opposite. That arguement has also been used to separate the sexes in schools as well.

What is absurd is using your argument, for a black man to succeed in society he will need to remain only with blacks.

Good luck. If you think your being black means all other blacks will make you successful and your skin colour will unite you and all will be well if you remain within the Jane Finch corridor and never leave, stay there.

Ruckus C. Johnson, an economist at the University of California at Berkeley, published studies showing that black students who went to desegregated schools for at least five years had higher graduation rates, high entry rates to college, higher college graduation rates, higher lifetime income, and healthier lives.

There's plenty more where his studies came from. You so sure your perspective is the only one?

Buh bye now. I have to get on a subway with all kinds of people of every colour imaginable. They haven't segragated the subways yet.

Edited by Rue
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Rue:

You copied the whole "Ruckus C. Johnson ..." paragraph from a blog.

He studied the effects of "court-ordered desegregation" in the US on people born in the 1950's to 1970's, hardly relevant to today's issues in Canada where a focus program for Black students is a voluntary choice.

From his studies:

The results suggest the mechanism

through which school desegregation led to beneficial health outcomes in adulthood for blacks include the significant improvement in access to school resources reflected in reductions in class

size and increases in per-pupil spending.

IE, improvements in outcomes were due to the better resources and quality of schools, compared to previous segregated underfunded Black schools.

You are entitled to have an opinion on the issue, but citing irrelevant research doesn't support your position.

It's a choice ... may be right for some, not others.

.

Edited by jacee
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Here are some additional interesting stats I think of which support africentric schooling.

According to a new study, black students have an increased likelihood of being identified as gifted provided that they attend schools with higher proportions of black teachers. The same dynamic seems to function for Latino students, when they attend a school with more Latino teachers.

The study’s research was presented recently at the annual meeting of the American Educational Research Association in Chicago. The data of the study was conducted within more than 2,000 schools in the academic years of 2003-4 and 2011-12.

In the research it was determined that on average, at least 6 % of all students in a school are identified for gifted programs. According to the research, nearly 8% of Caucasian students are identified as gifted in comparison to only 3-4% of black and Latino children who are identified as gifted.

However, the study does not explain this correlation, but it does add to the mounting debate regarding the fact why black and Latin children are less likely to be called “gifted” than their white and Asian peers.

Speaking out about the outcome of the study, professor Jason A. Grissom, of Vanderbilt University, who led the study said: “The connection between teachers’ race and students likelihood of being gifted “should give us pause,”

The connection between teachers’ race and students’ likelihood of being called gifted “should give us pause.” He added, “That does speak to something that fundamentally does not feel right.”

Nonetheless, when there was a 10% increase in black teachers in the school environment, there proportion of black students who were identified as gifted increased by 3.2%.

The trend was also quite similar when the situation for Latino students and teachers. When identifying students as gifted, teachers have a crucial role in determining which students are deemed highly intelligent and should be tested for gifted programs.

Explaining the results further, Grimsson said, “observers seeking to explain the discrepancies in gifted representation are quick to raise questions about teacher’s biases or lack of cultural understanding. However, Grimsson pointed out that other factors could be in play, including the fact that students perform better academically when teachers are of the same race.

Grimsson said, “It could be that two different teachers are actually seeing different capacities in a kid because that kid is behaving differently”.

http://financialjuneteenth.com/heres-what-white-teachers-tend-to-do-with-gifted-black-students-its-appalling/

Either way, white teachers spell trouble for black students.

Employers Treat Black Men With Degrees Like Criminals

It has been proven that an African-American man with no criminal record has equal chances of being offered a job as a white man who has just been released from prison. Devah Pager, a Harvard sociology professor, has especially helped to shed more light on the fact that stereotypes about race play a significant role on the possibility of being hired.

In a popular study carried out by Pager, she directed male testers taking part in a matched-pair experiment to send in applications for similar entry-level jobs advertised in some newspapers in Milwaukee. The sociology professor provided her assistants, comprising half white and half black men, with bogus credentials making them equal in terms of education and job experience, among others, except race.

http://financialjuneteenth.com/employers-treat-black-man-with-degrees-like-criminals/

https://youtu.be/HgsZ9N8Bs_w

So whites treat blacks with degrees like criminals. What good can come from them going to the same school.

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Segregation is wrong and does not work in the long run. Affirmative action is wrong and does not work in the long run. Quotas in hiring is wrong and does not work in the long run. Separation by religion or culture or language or gender ... is wrong and does not work in the long run. Any attempt to create wrongs in the present to make up for perceived wrongs in the past is wrong and does not work in the long run.

May the good Lord save us from the social architects who decide that forced behaviour modification is the answer!

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Segregation is wrong and does not work in the long run. Affirmative action is wrong and does not work in the long run. Quotas in hiring is wrong and does not work in the long run. Separation by religion or culture or language or gender ... is wrong and does not work in the long run. Any attempt to create wrongs in the present to make up for perceived wrongs in the past is wrong and does not work in the long run.

May the good Lord save us from the social architects who decide that forced behaviour modification is the answer!

Affirmative action, where did that come from? The only affirmative action receipeints in Canada are french who have designated roles on the supreme court and designated schools and hiring quotas. Them and white women of course. And you are right, these race quotas are racist, and wrong.

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  • 3 months later...

Hern sorry I have been busy but I want to take the time to respond because you have a lot of passion for your positions and you have the right to expect

I appreciate why you said the above. My point is we all can after school, send our children to places where they can learn culture specific to their family origins but in a public school, it should not pick and choose only certain cultures.

I criticize the fact that Catholic schools are allowed special designation for that reason. On the other hand as it now stands in Ontario, you can send a child to a Catholic school who is NOT Catholic and they can opt out of any religious activities.

I argue a school should teach all cultures and faiths and then you as a Christian, Greek, Irish, etc., whatever you feel is your designation, then as a family have the responsibility on your own terms and time to then supplement the public education and don't tell me it has to be done at the public school-it doesn't.

The public schools already do pick and choose certain cultures. Even when they think they are being neutral, what do you think the "neutral" culture being taught in Ukranian or Russian schools are? Now Canadian? = white.

As it stands now anyone of any race can go to an Africentric school, but the fact that not a single white in a region of millions of whites has chosen to do so, tells you alot about what they truly think of diversity. Diversity is only for african carribean folk. They want to send them to everyone else's schools but the other groups don't want to go to theirs. Diversity is putting 1 african kid in a white school, but it is not putting 1 white kid in an african school school.

The city of Toronto has over 100+ cultures, it is by no means realistic to teach them all, throw on all the faiths on top of that and you are looking at an impossible amount of learning.

You are also missing the issue, this isn't just about cultural learning. Alot of this is about white and non-original racism aimed at african and carribean students. The politics of teachers unions makes it impossible to fire them except for near crimes, further even if you could it would be reactionary and often too late and it is in nature often difficult to prove to a standard sufficient for most whites to accept or do anything about. Rather than trying to convince white people of racism they believe doesn't exist is occurring in the classroom it seems far more logical to set up your own school with your own teachers and not have to worry about fixing white racism which is a world wide endemic problem.

I did not understand the above. French schools are designed to immerse children in the French language. French is an official language of Canada. Parents have the option to teach their kids French this way. Because French is an official language it is a responsibility of the state to teach it. Swahili, Hebrew, Greek, no those are languages we would pursue on our own.

This is the hypocrisy, the french have their own province, their own schools, teach their culture in these schools and religion all on public dime when do the african carribeans get equality and get their own province, their own schools, teach their culture and religion on public dime. Oh, I see because the state has decided to give preferential treatment to white french people's ethnic group, every other ethnic group should sit down and shut up and eat three lumps of coal. I am glad you are showing your true colors. Is this your idea of equality? One group gets billions and has schools and special treatment and another group is denied it all and has to pay for the first groups welfare and handouts because they are the wrong ethnicity. Sounds a whole lot like the separate but equal arguments of the past.

No. Not at all. I have no idea what you are getting at but I have always argued our public school should reflect the values of Canada and that is;

1-aboriginal history and values; 2-British history and values; 3-French history and values; 4-the hostiry and values of the many peoples who have come to Canada and helped build it. In these categories I put politics, history, the relation these components have played in creating our laws and institutions.

With religion I believe it should be taught as a non denominational course teaching all the major religions and include atheism and agnosticism.

I do believe at an appropriate age,in sex education and then at another appropriate age, a diversity course teaching tolerance for people of different values.

I do not like the idea of seperate schools for gays, blacks, aboriginals, creative arts.

I know there has been success with aboriginal centric schools and in gay centric schools I personally though believe they are not the best way to deal with discrimination and assimilation issues, and if anything delay having to deal with them.

My perspective is not eurocentric. Its a minority who believes this country exists because of aboriginals, the French and the British as the building blocks of our laws and traditions and this includes Christian religion. As a Jew I would think it strange not to be able to understand Christianity or the British legal system or aboriginal history but call myself Canadian. As a Quebecer understanding the French connection was crucial. My Jewishness to me is a private matter not a public one. I am glad to explain and share it but for me my Jeiwshness is something that I only share outside my private domain if it contributes to a Canadian vision-a Canada first vision.

All minorities have similiar experiences. Everyone of us has stories of persecution but the British legal system allows us to accommodate them all and it can because it in turn borrowed certain aboriginal concepts of inclusivity.

Before you claimed you thought that "My point is we all can after school, send our children to places where they can learn culture specific to their family origins but in a public school, it should not pick and choose only certain cultures." IE. cultural neutral. Now you show your true colors as "public school should reflect the values of Canada and that is; 1-aboriginal history and values; 2-British history and values; 3-French history and values;"

In otherwords you have never been for culture neutral, you are for british, french etc culture, which was precisely my point which you were trying to deny. This is the precise hypocrisy your ilk engage in. Pretending to be for neutrality when youa re indeed for white cultural supremacy. I do not like the idea of seperate schools for brits, french and italian catholics but we have them.

When you are saying you are that centric schools delay having to deal with discrimination issues what precisely are you trying to say? Are you saying you'd rather see minorities discriminated earlier in life when they are more vulnerable and morelikely to drop out? Or are you saying the whites won't learn how to not be racist if they don't get to beat down on minorites during middle school? For a carribean student to go through elementary and high school with only african teachers would be highly beneficial because then when he does encounter racism, he'll have had teachers who have taught him how to deal with those issues and he'll have already been on the road to success so white racism cannot stop him at that point typically speaking. There is no good that comes from african carribean students being around white teachers or white pupils who racially attack them. Your perspective is indeed eurocentric and white supremacist, you admited it earlier when you said you were for a white power education that focues only on teaching white culture.

Your jewishness is not comparable to being original because jewish are not originals and they are not african/carribeans. There is no one else like african carribeans in Canada, they are an exceptional people, the jewish cannot be comparable it is an apples and oranges flaw. All minorities do not have similar experiences, the jewish aren't getting carded and pulled out of cars and beat up and being called kikes by the cops when they commit crimes. They aren't demolishing the jewish parts of town in nova scotia.

No I am not. I have argued I think your use of the word "seperation" is a semantic argument and is no different than segregation. Both keep blacks isolated from mainstream society. Whether someone welcomes being isolated or is forced to isolate to me is a moot point, either way I think it problematic and equally as defecive and so if anything I have not avoided discussion I am generating it and challenging you to understand whether someone chooses to be dettached or is forced to dettach, its a problem-that doesn't help build a common vision of Canada, either way it creates an island that doesn't assimilate but forms a resistance to the Canadian vision.

No we have not. You use the word strawman incorrectly and pose it as if anyone who does not agree with you is wrong. No we are debating your position.

Then your argument is wrong. Isolated from mainstream. mainstream =british/french white to you of course? Is American segregated from England, or did America separate from England?

America separated from England. Is it a problem that canada detatched from England?

Of course not, these are only problems when someone african/carribean wants to do it. When African nations wanted to separate from England they sent in armies to murder of people by the millions, when white Canadians did it at the same time it was widely welcomed.

Any word or concept about commonality is just being used as a code word by you for white or british/french. This has already been established. So when you are talking about a white vision, african carribean original people do not fit in there, they are not white. Further they don't want to be part of your white token world. Canada is a cultural mosaic we are suppose to form our own islands and stick to our own kind.

And yes so far your position has been a straw-man. You know I am not arguing for segregation but you pretend as if I am arguing for segregation. It would be like calling Quebec french separatist French segregationist. And then going on to talk about the bad of segregation. That is a straw-man to a T. Instead of arguing why separation might be good or bad, you instead choose to argue against segregation,an argument no french separatist is really for.

No. Public funding of any school that excludes everyone but one type of people is for me unacceptable because I believe government should not discriminate for or against anyone. What makes a school segregated is not the taxes paying it which is a seperate issue, but the exlusions.

The Africancentric schools exclude by their very nature anythone outside their definition of what is culturally important. It segregates by focusing in on one type of people and exluding others. It is exclusive nature, its need to dettach and seperate from a neutral approach to a bias one, that segregates or as you call it, separates.

Taxes come from people of all values so must reflect neutrality. You want to take money from peope of all values to only uphold the ones you like, I believe people have the right to say, uh no, pay for that out of your own pocket otherwise don't expect us to fund discrimination in your favour.

I won't reargue the funding issue with you because you have been proven wrong, I provided reliable data showing private schools are really gettin public funds all across canada.

You claim the government shouldn't discriminate yet you are fine with a british and french centric curriculum, isn't that discrimination?

What about the afro-centric schools are exclusionary any more than the eurocentric schools like the french and english or italian ones? You had no issue with the public schools focusing in on british and french histories, why is the africentric schools focusing on histories relevent to those people any worse?

You idea that white or british/french is neutral is just inaccurate and plain discriminatory. Further you fail to prove how it is bias to focus on afro-carribean original culturehistory when you simultaneously claim it is not bias to focus on british and french history. The problem is you don't take your own advice, you want african and carribean originals to pay for your british and french schools which is discriminatory.

Most of us Canadians will not fund your attempts to stick to your own kind. Also can I give you a friendly warning. If you stick to your own kind too much you may engage in incest and inter-breeding so be careful. Your children don't just get strange ideas but webbed fingers, sloping foreheads, unusual body features, etc. ....Where do you decide blacks have a right to public funding unless you agree every other ethnic group does. Then where does it stop?

LOL, yeah Canadians will only fund white segregation I guess. As for incest, I'm not personally a fan of it, but genetically it does have both good and bad. The bad you mentioned, but the good is that it tends to produce people of extremely high intelligence. It was why it was so widely practiced throughout the ancient world from egypt to rome to the monarchy of england to this day. In fact there are some theories that the reason you have so many highly regarded euro jewish scientist is because of inbreeding.

It stops where you cannot find enough kids to form a school. So if you only have 10 kids no school, but if you can find at least 20 in the same age range then sure knock yourself out.

No that is you engaging in a racist stereotype and an absurd one at that. Its been opposed by many of us because we feel its a discriminatory concept that segregates blacks and sets back an attempt to create a diverse cultural mosaic. What makes your comment so absurd is the majority of blacks are against it. Using your argument one is a self hating black because they don't want to be labelled as a disabled person in need of separation from whites to cope..... Its not what anyone but you thinks and its absurd because do you really think blacks do not discriminate against other blacks because of their differences in skin colour, skin tone, facial features, language, country of origin religion, economic status-right in your world as long as someone has melatonin of any degree that are harmonious? Lol.... What you call public funding is not public funding-you try equate a tax deduction with public funding and a deduction for one component of a curriculum with funding an entire school. You equate a tax benefit given on a non discriminatory basis with demanding taxes from all to only a selected group. You don;t understand because you mix and match concepts that are not the same in an attempt to state governments discriminate so its ok to discriminate. You use the two wrongs make a right argument. If others discriminate its only right you discriminate. I fail to see the strength in such an argument.

Its a racist stereotype, o really, how about we look at how these respective cultures think and treat of african and carribean people where they are from. What are those marches and beatings they do to africans in Israel about?

African and carribean people are done with your ilk. They don't want to be around your kind anymore and argue about racism. They rather just seperate from you and build their own things and be happy away from you. Most originals cannot publicly speak their mind for fear of white retribution, but deep down they know it is true, there is no room for them in white spaces and they are unwelcomed.

I don't think they do but if they did its nothing of the level at which the mutant races do it.

Taxes come from public coffers, I already pointed out Alberta fully funds faith based schools with public money. You clearly just don't care for facts.

I am using the standards and precedents arguement. If there are 80+ schools for every culture, you cannot whine about another one having it.

This has to be your most absurd statement yet. Do you care to explain why so many blacks die trying to get into Europe each day to escape their poverty? What a stupid thing to say. People would leave Africa in a minute to live in Canada if they had the means to get here.

You think all blacks are racist like you? They are victims of circumstance like all of us are. We are born into and unto a world with certain precondiitons we had no choice over. Now you make sweeping racist statements of all blacks?

Right they love each other in Africa. Tell that to the victims in Burundi, Rwanda, Mali, Malawi, Congo, Zimbabwe on and on. What you going to suggest blacks love blacks in Africa and hate whites and only kill each other because a white guy told them too/ How absurd...........

The very phenomena you describe is called pack mentality. We humans are primates. As such we are pack animals and we form paks headed by Alpha males, and we define our packs by the colour of our fur, the number of spots or shape of spots or in the case of some us just like our cousins the baboons by our inflamed buttoxes and the number of coils our buttox has.......Yes and white students on black campuses are also alienated, segregated and isolated.

They have been typically tricked by white folks with false advertising to go to Europe. The reality is how can a resource poor place like western europe actually even support more migrants. At least if the Africans were going to Russia to get some of the resources I'd get it. They are being tricked. the Europeans in the west know their land is worthless. It is why they always invaded everyone else. So they are trying to trick the africans to leave africa so they all go to europe and then steal african land where all the resources are. I say clap clap, very clever plan. When you look at the actual wealth, a country like Zimbabwe or Congo or Malawi has much more resource wealth than most comparable european western states. They want them to all go to europe so they can steal their land and leave the africans trapped in europe on worthless european land.

I am not racist, although I sure wish I was. :lol:

Yes and the pak mentality is so ingrained in human behaviour it is foolish to try to go against it.

What white student on campus in Canada has been alienated, isolated, segregated on a black run university?

Finally in regards to your articles that show black students do better when they are segragated there are in fact just as many if not more studies that show the opposite. That arguement has also been used to separate the sexes in schools as well....................

"""What is absurd is using your argument, for a black man to succeed in society he will need to remain only with blacks.

Good luck. If you think your being black means all other blacks will make you successful and your skin colour will unite you and all will be well if you remain within the Jane Finch corridor and never leave, stay there.

Ruckus C. Johnson, an economist at the University of California at Berkeley, published studies showing that black students who went to desegregated schools for at least five years had higher graduation rates, high entry rates to college, higher college graduation rates, higher lifetime income, and healthier lives."""

Show me an article saying original students do just as well surrounded by a bunch of whites.
He is much better off around his own kind than around whites. For one he will be judged based on his merit and personality not his skin color and that alone is enough to justify separation. Educated originals in this country struggle because whites don't want to hire a bunch of original people, and I don't blame, they shouldn't socializing and trying to work with whites in the first place, that is an inappropriate behaviour because they best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour and whites have a long history of past racist behaviour and thus will have a long future and racist behaviour. As such trying to "integrate" (which is a lie) with people who are likely to be racist to you is utter non-sense and foolishness. Whites aren't interested in "integration" white parents cry tears in the US when their white kids are bused to the african american area, they set up charter schools (state funded private schools) just to circumvent those bussing rules.
Integration means weakness for originals, you are putting yourself in a losing situation where you will always lose and you are begging whites hat in hand for fairness. The whites will outnumber you, they will gang up on you and beat you up then beat you down. It is how their culture operates. No different than what the European states all did in WW2 to the jews. The jewish were in every army and the whites didn't care, they united in their whiteness whether they were from nations who had traditionally hated each other like hungarians and italians to kill and beat up on the the non-white jewish.
And if whites are truly for integration then they can be permitted to work for the african and carribean run business and attend their schools where they are the minority. We all know it won't happen. Whites understand this. They know minority means loser, so not one white kid will go to the africentric school out of millions of whites nation wide because no one white wants to be a loser. If you are white and 5 blacks say you did X, well who do you think wins when the teacher and principal are all black? In any situation in Canada majority rules. when you integrate as a original african or carribean you are saying i am going to make myself a minority, I am planning to lose.
That is why the time to separate from the white, the jewish, the asian is now and has never been stronger than ever.
ps. your use of the study is wrong, he was pointing out that underfunded original school students performed worse for having no funding.
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