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Non-black students may boycott Africentric school, students warn


Shwa

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Schools have never been neutral in Canada. We are a multicultural country. No one should be expected to forcibly assimilate. And when the majority culture denies your history is true, there is no neutral. It would be like having a "religion" or "history" class where it is neutral. When the african historians say xyz and euro historians say abc. What are you going to make neutral? For the most part, black and whites can't even agree water is wet or the sky is blue, never mind a curriculum. And black students are being beat up in high schools and threatened with death by white students wearing confederate flags calling them racial slurs all caught on camera and posted on youtube and making national news yet those students somehow aren't expelled and continue to attend class with the student. Its clear you have an anti-black slant. You can make an exception for aboriginal and gays because clearly they are discriminated against more than blacks. Telling a group of people whose ancestors were kidnapped out of their country robbed of their language, history, culture, religion and the name the mother gave them, to go learn another culture is highly offensive.

We have students with confederate flags?

For the most part, black and whites can't even agree water is wet or the sky is blue, never mind a curriculum.

In that case, whether black or white, whoever is denying is a moron.
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How does a school system "cater to Caucasian students"? I didn't know Caucasians were a cohesive group that could be catered to educationally.

The explanation is quiet long but please bear with me. The history matters.

1. Canadian school system originates out of the British school system. The modern British school system like most Western and Eastern European school systems and the American and most Anglosphere systems copied the Prussian educational system because it was so successful in its purpose of breaking young men into following orders. Our school system is based out of the Prussian military educational system from the 1700 and 1800s. What happened was the Prussians lost a few wars and blamed it on lack of discipline amongst young recruits. They claimed the didn't follow orders (like run into certain death). So they came up with a system that would make young men blindly follow orders without asking questions.

A good student would become a good soldier. And a good soldier blindly follows orders from his commanders without asking questions or "challenging authority". Including if it means going into a line of 20-30 men at the front of a 10,000 man column into what is clearly certain death and not breaking ranks. You have to understand back then, war was fought in an open field between two armies, and whoever retreated first often ended up losing and getting shot in the back. The red coats (British) were the most successful army during much of this period because British soldiers had the best discipline and were most unafraid to march into certain death in a line.

You see this is why prior to mandatory education, war use to be a rich man's thing. Most the soldiers were rich adventure seekers, in those days commanders like Napolean who lead nations would actually lead into battle not hide under a desk.

"A strategy was devised in which the Prussian government would set up a forced government educational system which would turn out well disciplined students who would follow orders without questioning authority."

http://archive.nevadajournal.com/nj98/05/prussian.htm

2. Now I understand not all Caucasians are the same and white cultures vary, but this type of schooling is the same throughout the white world. A good student is one who sits still in a spot, doesn't do anything unless he is told to do it. If he is told to sit he sits, if he is told to work, he works, if he is told to go run around the school 3 times, he does that and nothing more. And he says yes sir, yes ma'am. He doesn't talk to other students except when the teacher says you can. A good student lines up outside when the bell rings, and then walks single file up the stairs and waits in line again before entering the classroom while the teacher counts all the students. This is TRAINING for military maneuvers. Do you know why a class of 20-35 students. Because that is the typical size of a squad or platoon/troop at this time. When you go to school, on the first day, they say get in a line, Why? A student who ask too many questions is considered annoying at best, and a trouble maker at worst. Why? Because in a battlefield, a sgt doesn't have time to explain that, you get in a line and do what you are told or you get your head blown off.

3. In otherwords, our school system, was created for white european military culture. And that's ok. Most people in Canada are white. it would be hypocritical for me to say whites should be forced into the africentric system, that would just be racism in the opposite direction, and I am not interesting in oppressing white people. Just a fair shake for blacks.

When this school system was made, they didn't ask black people their opinion, their inputs, what they thought. It is a culturally bias system in favour of white europeans. In fact black people weren't even considered humans when this system was invented.

The racist poems, like baba black sheep, or innie meenie minie moe, the racist white power books like to kill a mocking bird, mark twain huck finn, etc. with frequent usage of anti black slurs, this is catered to white students. This is not literature that is neutral and it is not what a black run education system or even asian or indian would go and teach.

4. The "mainstream" educational system is anti-black. Most blacks feel this way. Regardless if you accept it or not, they do not feel welcome nor accepted in the mainstream system, it is why the drop out rate is so high. They are the target of racial attacks, anti-black violence, racial slurs from other students and teachers and even the textbooks and curriculum at large which denies their historical achievements and writes their ancestors out of the history book.

Just look at what the blacks who work at the tdsb as principal think

"A Toronto principal who is black has complained to the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal that the Toronto District School Board repeatedly refused to promote him partly because he accused his son’s elementary school of race-based streaming back in 2006 — white students into band, black students into drama — and said his accusations annoyed some trustees so much, they later blocked his rise to superintendent.

Andre Patterson, now principal of Braeburn Junior School in Rexdale, has accused the TDSB of “systemic discrimination” throughout his career, including being called an “ABM” (angry black male) by a superior, said his lawyer Selwyn Pieters, who also claims Patterson suffered reprisal from several trustees who refused to approve his bid for promotion because of disputes they had with him.

Pieters said Patterson plans to call nearly 20 TDSB witnesses

Said Patterson: “Black educators have zero room for error.”"

Now this is a successful black man, and he works at the TDSB in a a management level position as a principal and he is drawing the same conclusion that the TDSB discriminates against black students.

5. So what does this mean. Well white cultures of Europe, seem to value blindly following an instructor, going into lines and following a very structured system quiet highly. Many of the African and carribean cultures value creativity and logic and challenging pre-standing assumptions and authorities quiet highly. The cultures are different in their approach to education. For African cultures, this style of teaching allowed them to come up with many great innovations in science, technology, warfare, art, geology, geogrpahy, medicine, architecture, construction etc.

To a european person, their style of education and learning might seem hectic or difficult to follow, and they might not perform well under such a system. In fact there is a famous book written in education by a Japanese American author about how the "good" american student put in a different culture in Asia would be considered bad because they do xyz instead of abc.

So what you have is cultures who have conflicting styles of learning and education.

6. Do you understand that white cultures and black cultures don't even agree on many basic things of who is black and who wasn't black, what blacks invented and what whites invented and who did what when and where? This is part of the reason why you cannot just teach the program through a eurocentric schooling. At best you'd get confused students when they read conflicting text from conflicting white and black scholars. The white scholars say the white man is the center of western civilization and the white civilizations are rome and greece. The black scholars say the black man is the center of western civilization and black civilizations like Greece and Egypt were black and the white Romans copied black civilizations and whites overan greece towards its collapse.

I don't want to even debate this here. But I am simply demonstrating that the cultures don't agree water is wet. They cannot be "integrated" into one another in a manner other posters suggest.

I'll give a simple example. All students learn pythagorean theorum in Ontario right. Well the white scholars say pythagoras was a white greek man who invented this theory and that he at some point studied in Egypt, but it is unclear what PRECISELY he learned from the egyptians. Bear in mind, when I learned the theory, the egyptian part was not taught. The black scholars largely agree pythagoras was white, but they dispute the rest. They say pythagoras COPIED the theory from the Egyptians who were black and that blacks invented the theory. And this contradiction pops up throughout much of these subjects with ancient origins in Greece. The white scholars say Greeks invented it. Black scholars say no they copied it and it was originating from the blacks in egypt and mesopotamia.

This more or less pops up across all major subjects you can think of from chemistry (which my high school text books gave a white european spin or influence/background on) whereas the black scholars claim the origins of chemistry comes from al chemia black moors.

I don't even want to have a debate on this subject of who invented which or what, but I am just illustrating how different and incompatible the cultures and histories are without point a finger and saying x race right y race wrong.

6. I don't want to ban whites from having their own education system that works for them. If Canada is suppose to be a multicultural country, then there should be enough room that we can have parallel education systems. The white Brits can have their traditional public schools, the protestants, the ukranian catholics and roman catholics and french and every other group can have their own schools that best addresses the needs of corresponding students of whatever religious or cultural background. The africentric program is a step in the right direction.

Alot of white people say, blacks need to take responsibility and stop waiting for white man handouts and to fix their own problems. And I agree. I think the africentric program is a step in that direction. These black parents aren't asking for white welfare money to go buy booze. They just want their tax dollars going into an education system that will work. After all, you can't tell a people to fix their own problems, then complain when they come up with a solution that they think will solve their problems.

And I would agree that africentric schools from elementary to university would be a step in the right direction. After all, Asians go to Asian majority schools in markham and north east toronto, they then go on to asian universities like waterloo and u of t. They then go on to work with primarily asian companies and firms. And they are the "model minority" right? aren't whites always saying blacks need to be more like Asians.

And whites go to white majority schools, then they go to white majority high schools and white majority universities like Western and Queens and all those other schools and then they go work for a white employer usually. So I don't see the issue here. It seems like the blacks are just copying all the other groups around them who are more successful. No shame in trying to improve your situation.

6. Studies demonstrate that africentric schooling is the best for black students

"The study, conducted by Ming-Te Wang and James P. Huguley of the University of Pittsburg and Harvard University respectively, found that “racial socialization”—teach ing kids about their culture and involving them in activities that promote racial pride and connection—helps to offset the discrimination and racial prejudices children face by the outside world. Wang explains:

"They found racial pride to be the single most important factor in guarding against racial discrimination, and discovered it had a direct impact on the students’ grades, future goals, and cognitive engagement.

Despite fewer instances of multicultural and inclusive learning in school and the increased frequency in which black students are treated more harshly than their peers, Wang’s study shows that teaching kids, especially black children, to take pride in their culture is an integral part of their success.

Wang sums it up:

“Our study provides empirical evidence that the longstanding practice in the African American community of cultivating racial pride and preparing children to face racial bias in society should be considered among appropriate and beneficial practices in parenting Black children.”

"

http://www.clutchmag...tter-in-school/

7. Lastly, if segregation was banned 50 years ago or whenever they claim they stopped it. Why if this system is so great for black students do we have a 40% drop out rate. I mean if the white european british education system is neutral or best in the interest of black students why are they performing so poorly. It seems you'd either accept they are just racially inferior. In which case there is a good case for them to have special schools like all the other intellectually disabled and "special people" in society. Or the current system is mistreating them. In which case you can't blame them for leaving a system which is treating them as sub-humans. Or maybe you just think all blacks are lazy. In which case again, it only helps the argument that they should not be in school with whites because if blacks are truly just lazy, it is obvious that white teachers cannot or are incapable of motivating them to do better than their naturally lazy state. No matter how you cut it, there is no way white teachers or educational system can help blacks. And if they could, why have they waited 50 years to do it. If the status quo is held of black students in white power institutions, when we are toothless old me, we will be having this conversation again in 50 years.

If a white person or any race had 40% failure rate in any other job they'd be fired.

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T&T the Chinese grocery store?

The one where maybe 1 emplyee in ten speaks English?

The one where 1 in 20 patrons speak English?

The one where they cater to the Asian market?

The one I go to all the time cuz they have great stuff?

I dunno....how many blacks do you know that speak Mandarin or Cantonese?

Oh my...thanks for that laugh of the day !

I'm not disputing that. I am only pointing out that the races do not generally interact in employment situations. So pretending that going to an africentric school will be some kind of crippling condition when people with degrees from china or africa or india come here and still find jobs is silly.

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We have students with confederate flags?

In that case, whether black or white, whoever is denying is a moron.

To be honest, the very fact you are asking these question can be frustrating to the average black person whose child is exposed to this type of overt racism because it seems like most white people are simply oblivious to it. And it doesn't mean most whites are bad or have devil horns, they just honestly don't SEE IT.

And at a certain point, you just get tired of trying to convince someone something is there that harming you and you do what you can to protect yourself.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/02/23/york_region_high_school_in_flap_over_confederate_flag.html

"

York Region high school in flap over Confederate flag Some students see the Confederate flag as a symbol of rural pride, but Sutton District High School has slapped a ban on the flag that has long been synonymous with racism."

"The Confederate flag became popular at Sutton District High School in the last two years, said principal Dawn Laliberté, emblazoned on bandanas, lighters, belt buckles, backpacks and pickup truck windows.

After explaining the flag’s symbolism to students this week, the school implemented a ban.

“Our first step is always to educate. We are only dealing with a handful of students who view it as a white pride kind of thing, so we thought now is the time to get the message out,” Laliberté said.'

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/student-beaten-subjected-to-racial-slurs-at-sutton-high-school-1.2634208

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/why-are-dumb-canadians-waving-the-confederate-flag

http://i.cbc.ca/1.1337053.1378975572!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_620/li-hillbillyheaven-620.jpg

https://restructure.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/kkkblackfacecanada.jpeg?w=780

http://news.nationalpost.com/toronto/toronto-teacher-placed-on-home-assignment-after-handing-out-inappropriate-jokes-about-sex-blondes

"racist jokes"

http://o.canada.com/health/family-child/toronto-school-alerts-police-pursues-internal-investigation-following-racist-prank

http://globalnews.ca/news/1624662/toronto-school-investigates-allegations-of-racist-remarks-by-a-teacher/

To most blacks in Toronto it seems a foregone conclusion that the TDSB system is racist and anti-black. It just doesn't make sense to debate people like that on racism. You are better off in your own school system where your children won't be beat up attacked and subjected to racist teachers and students and curriculum.

"According to Statistics Canada, Ontario has the highest proportion of reported hate-crimes in Canada, with 5.7 incidents per 100,000 population in 2010. In Ontario, Black Canadians reported the most hate-crimes with 271 incidents. So Black Ontarians were seven times more likely than the average to be the victim of a hate crime."

As for the water wet thing, that is an expression. white and black cultures histories disagree on almost every major thing, which I have documented examples of in the above post. When you have constant disagreements on the most basic of issues, it is best to just avoid each other and maintain a veneer of civility rather than being in constant verbal combat. Otherwise you get a situation like in the USA where the whites end up hating the blacks and think they are making up "Aforcentric lies" and the blacks end up thinking all the whites are racist and evil and are against them. No one wins in such a system everyone loses. Why would we copy America's failing model.

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Africa is a big continent. It seems absurd to lump immigrants from various African countries with people who have been hear generations. If anything, the push to divide the school system on racial lines exacerbates any problems by making skin colour more important that language, ethnicity, religion or culture.

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Africa is a big continent. It seems absurd to lump immigrants from various African countries with people who have been hear generations. If anything, the push to divide the school system on racial lines exacerbates any problems by making skin colour more important that language, ethnicity, religion or culture.

Yes and Asia is bigger and has more people yet somehow Asians manage to have their own schools where they succeed.

Many of the african carribean cultures are much more related than you may be aware.

The system is not being divided on racial lines per se, more so cultural. A white student CAN attend the africentric school, but most white people know its a huge disadvantage to dump your kid in a school where they'd be a minority in race and where the curriculum is not designed for their culture. It is why italian Roman catholics send their kids to italian roman catholic schools.

The truth is white and black cultures do not have very much in common in language, ethnicity, religion or culture in canada. Most black canadians are speaking multiple languages including english but usually a second one whether its jamaican or somali or whatever. Ethnicity is obviously different. Most whites are from western europe most blacks from africa or carribean. Most whites are catholics or anglicans or related relgions most jamaicans are other type of protestant and most the africans are muslim. And the white and black cultures are very very different, I'd say the 2 most different in the world. Probably why no matter where on the planet they are from Australia to South Africa to Bermuda to switzerland and America, where every youfind blacks and whites fundamental disagreements are sure to follow over how the society is to be ran.

Most blacks are coming from countries where the ones over 50 or 60 still remember when whites invaded their country and fought for independence or wars against colonialism, Most whites over 50 or 60 remember a time when refusing to serve someone for being black was not even illegal and racial slurs against black were freely used.

Trying to force whites and blacks into the same school system is like trying to force a square peg in a round hole. It will not work.

In fact it can often be psychologically damaging for children coming from a warzone like Southern Somalia to come to a country like Canada who invaded them and murdered alot of civilians there. Then instead of seeing someone who looks like them, they see a person who is suppose to be the role model looks like the person who invaded there country in the 1990s. Black children need educators who look like them and can serve as role models. They need to be around other black students in a black positive environment without being subjected to confederate flags, and white racism and a school system inequipped to handle complaints.

Most white simply feel discrimination complaints are bullshit because they cannot see it. I believe they honestly just have troubling seeing any but the most overt flag waving racism and then its still iffy. There is no point in trying to change the entire white cultures mind.

Most blacks just want to live in a country where they can get a fair shake and their children can get fair treatment and an education system that is designed to help them. The british style system was not designed for them in mind and doesn't value their culture but views them as trouble waiting to happen. They don't even care if whitees don't want to be around them. They just want their own school and they'll do their own thing if whites don't like blacks. Whites have the right not to like black people, Canada is a free country. But they should not expect blacks to not open facilties for themselves when the whites refuse to treat them fairly or like a decent human. Most blacks slowly realize that they won't be treated like a human by a country which says they have the right to stop you with a gustapo style toronto police force and demand you produce ID and tell them where you are going based on your crime of havng black skin aka carding.

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Yes and Asia is bigger and has more people yet somehow Asians manage to have their own schools where they succeed.

I am not aware of any "Asian" schools. There might be "Chinese" schools "Japanese" schools but the fact that these schools are centered on a single ethnicity kind of proves my point about the silliness of treating all people with dark skin tone as somehow related.

Many of the african carribean cultures are much more related than you may be aware.

An immigrant from Somalia likely has more in common with an immigrant from Malaysia because of the religion than with a sixth generation black Canadian.

It is why italian Roman catholics send their kids to italian roman catholic schools.

Again, you prove my point. Cultural identity is based on language, religion and history - not skin colour.

Most white simply feel discrimination complaints are bullshit because they cannot see it.

No. It is because when a white person get treated like crap by a store clerk or some other person in public they do not assume it is race based. They just assume the person in question is a**hole. If someone is convinced there is lots of racism out there they will find plenty to support their belief. If someone instead chooses to ascribe different motivations to the same events they will not see racism at all. If someone sets up a school that tells students they perpetual victims of racism they will grow up to see racism everywhere they turn.

Most blacks just want to live in a country where they can get a fair shake and their children can get fair treatment and an education system that is designed to help them.

That is what we have today. Edited by TimG
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I am not aware of any "Asian" schools. There might be "Chinese" schools "Japanese" schools but the fact that these schools are centered on a single ethnicity kind of proves my point about the silliness of treating all people with dark skin tone as somehow related.

An immigrant from Somalia likely has more in common with an immigrant from Malaysia because of the religion than with a sixth generation black Canadian.

Again, you prove my point. Cultural identity is based on language, religion and history - not skin colour.

No. It is because when a white person get treated like crap by a store clerk or some other person in public they do not assume it is race based. They just assume the person in question is a**hole. If someone is convinced there is lots of racism out there they will find plenty to support their belief. If someone instead chooses to ascribe different motivations to the same events they will not see racism at all. If someone sets up a school that tells students they perpetual victims of racism they will grow up to see racism everywhere they turn.

That is what we have today.

All African cultures are related. I can't speak for Asian cultures but from my experience going to a university program that was 80%+ asian I can say it appears they seem to get along very well as a non-asian outside observer.

An immigrant from Somalia will have a common african culture in common with a 6th generation african canadian.

Cultural identity is usually based on other factors, for pretty much every other group except black people. This is because the color of your skin did have important cultural meanings for black cultures, which according to the black scholars on these subject like diop and obenga go back to the days of ancient egypt, or who called themselves k-m-t meaning land of the black people. Most afrocentric histories recognize egypt as holding a very central role in black civilizations because it plays a similar role to what rome or greece plays for us whites in terms of civilization. Further more unlike most other civilizations, black scholars claim that there civilizations of ancient periods actually named themselves after their skin color. For instance they maintain the ancient sumerians were blacks, as the ancient sumerians called themselves ung sang gi ga, which they translate as meaning land of the black head people.

Its would be easy for us to dismiss racism, because we are not on the wrong end of it. When you are a black student who is forced to read white power books like mark twain and to kill a mockingbird written by people who thought blacks were subhumans and constantly use vile racial slurs against blacks, what are blacks student suppose to think, this isn't racist. Give your head a check. And what do books from white school system showing blacks as perpetual victims of slavery and white system like mark twain and to kill a mocking bird teach ??? It would have to be perpetual victim hood because if not why are all these black students who go through the white system behaving like victims according to you.

And we aren't talking about some store clerk being a dick here or a savage, none of us expect those high school drop out bums to have any class really. It is the racism coming from the white british english school system, the teachers, students, principals, the board employees and staff, the curriculum and the rules all of which are against the african carribean culture.

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All African cultures are related. I can't speak for Asian cultures but from my experience going to a university program that was 80%+ asian I can say it appears they seem to get along very well as a non-asian outside observer.

I don't know about that so much. I lived in the Lower Mainland for over twenty years and the experience I have from work and school there is that the various asian cultures that live there don't get along that well at all. Of course, that's all anecdotal, from being a sounding board as often as not.

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I don't know about that so much. I lived in the Lower Mainland for over twenty years and the experience I have from work and school there is that the various asian cultures that live there don't get along that well at all.

No they don't. I would say the person who made the original statement is making some awfully racist assumptions.
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I don't know about that so much. I lived in the Lower Mainland for over twenty years and the experience I have from work and school there is that the various asian cultures that live there don't get along that well at all. Of course, that's all anecdotal, from being a sounding board as often as not.

I won't pretend to be all knowing, I don't know of all asian cultures. I was just speaking of my specific experiences. From what I observed the koreans for instant would work seamlessly well with the chinese or japanese or viet or thai or filipino etc. But if you were non-asian they'd outright refuse to work with you. They claimed that was their culture to the chagrin of many of us non-asians who had the misfortune of ending up in a 35 person section with 34 asians all of whom share this common culture. And I say chagrin because the school made group projects a huge part of the program and you'd end up doing the Group project by yourself. But this is off topic anyhow.

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No they don't. I would say the person who made the original statement is making some awfully racist assumptions.

Its not an assumption I was making nor was it racist, I spoke of in my experience what I observed. I never said all asians were that way or most, I simply spoke of the ones specific to that program I attended which was less than 80 people anyways. But if you have some additional insight into asian culture and want to shed some light on the subject I'm all ears/eyes.

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I won't pretend to be all knowing, I don't know of all asian cultures. I was just speaking of my specific experiences. From what I observed the koreans for instant would work seamlessly well with the chinese or japanese or viet or thai or filipino etc. But if you were non-asian they'd outright refuse to work with you. They claimed that was their culture to the chagrin of many of us non-asians who had the misfortune of ending up in a 35 person section with 34 asians all of whom share this common culture. And I say chagrin because the school made group projects a huge part of the program and you'd end up doing the Group project by yourself. But this is off topic anyhow.

That is the exact opposite of my experience. I never had any issues with working with any asian cultures, but the downside was you had to listen to them talk about the others.

I certainly never experienced the racism to which you were subjected.

Edited by bcsapper
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That is the exact opposite of my experience. I never had any issues with working with any asian cultures, but the downside was you had to listen to them talk about the others.

I certainly never experienced the racism to which you were subjected.

Well you were very fortunate. are you asian/ look asian? which coast/area are you in? Maybe they only act this way when they become an overwhelming majority, I don't know. I simply assumed this was just the way they behaved so no point in trying to change 1 billion people. They Asians had a bunch of jokes aimed at us. For instance they claimed that they ignored the white students because we we're so white we were white as a ghost and they couldn't see us. Then they claimed they avoided the black guy because they don't like blacks and he was so black if they walked near him they might disappear into a black ghost. These jokes didn't make sense to me but this is the kind of things they said.

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Wow, that's harsh. When I was growing up in the U.K., I had a chat with a ghost once, but I couldn't tell what colour it was.

Well, I say chat, but I pretty much did all the chatting. It just kept calling my name.

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An immigrant from Somalia will have a common african culture in common with a 6th generation african canadian.

He'll have a common skin pigmentation and that's all. Cultures don't hang on through six generations. At least, we certainly hope not. This country depends on integration. A sixth generation Canadian who happens to have black skin will be unlikely to know anything more about the massive variety of African cultures, their beliefs and values, than an Asian (who, btw, I agree appear to be extremely racist towards Blacks).

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Some of the biggest conflicts I have seen in schools was between blacks from Jamaica vs blacks from the USA, Bermuda and Africa.

Personally, I do not believe that Africentric are a good idea. Initial academic results may show some improvement but I believe that is because of the staffing formulas and the fact that parents are more involved. Those involved are under the microscope to show success and the additional motivation tends to create success.

BTW - What is considered to be a "black" student; full black, half black, quarter black, eighth black, any blood ancestry or just looks black?

I believe that segregating students by their appearance is a mistake.

I understand that the intent is to focus on the pride of ancestry but to discriminate is wrong - for any reason.

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But if you have some additional insight into asian culture and want to shed some light on the subject I'm all ears/eyes.

The one thing that Asians have in common are parents with high expectations when it comes to school. Many also have the perception that non-asian parents tend to have low expectations. This means that they will feel more confident that another asian will be a more reliable partner when it comes to group work in school. I suspect their tune would have changed if they believed that you were driven to excel academically and that you would be an asset to whatever group work is being done. That said, it does sound like you were the victim of racism in this example but I have to note the racism did not come from the majority culture but from another minority. There are people who argue that only whites can be racist and this is a good example of how there are completely wrong. Edited by TimG
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He'll have a common skin pigmentation and that's all. Cultures don't hang on through six generations. At least, we certainly hope not. This country depends on integration. A sixth generation Canadian who happens to have black skin will be unlikely to know anything more about the massive variety of African cultures, their beliefs and values, than an Asian (who, btw, I agree appear to be extremely racist towards Blacks).

If you think that is all you're understanding of African and Carribean history is grossly short sighted or eurocentric.

Jamaicans place a high value on the shared history and linkages it has with the nation of ethiopia in which ancient times was essentially in the same kingdom as modern somalia. Half of Somaliland today is actually contained within Ethiopia. But not for colonialism, they may still have been the same country.

Our country (Canada) has never been about a boiling point style of integration like the united states of italia or france. That has never been our identity as canadians we still have a little italy in toronto and the french in quebec have not yet learned english, these are the origins of our country that people who are not british whites are allowed to retain their cultures and languages. You may not agree with it, but if you want to assimilate anyone you are going to have to convince Quebec first and they already are taking down English signs. As for ethnicity not passing through the 6th generation, be serious here, some french canadians probably are passing it through 12 or 20 generations.

On the issue of racism, most blacks would probably agree that overt white racism isn't the problem, it is more of the subtle kind that people tend not to think about. With Asians it still quiet overt and racist, and they are racist to whites too (which is what the macleans article "too asian" touches upon), if they don't look tall blonde hair movie star like etc.

A black canadian of the 6th generation not knowing his culture is not a good thing. It is a bad thing. He doesn't know his identity, and will only take on the eurocentric concepts of blacks in history which is they are basically nothing and not important historically, use to be a slave, beaten by white people, call some racial slurs, white people sicked dogs on his ancestors and sprayed them with hoses and were racist and might still be. He will likely be highly susceptible to fall for the gangster rapper culture which you would likely agree with me is a bad influence on black children. The reason for this is because being a gangster rapper with a nice car, a big gold chain and a gold tooth, and being sexy and having women want you and men want to be you and having freedom and money and not being a slave, when you compare gangster rapper to nothing or a slave, a gangster rapper is actually a step up. When you are told people who look like you are all nothing and unimportant you'll latch onto anything. \

You are even starting to see a bit of this with white boys too, white girls are passing them in school and university and employment. The curriculum in many liberal areas vilifies white males historically. Yes there were bad white men in the past. but when you portray to a child white man always bad, he'll latch onto anything that looks good or is a step up. Eminem starts to look like a good role model. Better than the bad white man of the past right?

The major difference is the white boy he can see donald trump on tv. The black boy when he turns on the tv, he doesn't see positive images mostly of people like him. Which is why they are so much more worse off.

Some of the biggest conflicts I have seen in schools was between blacks from Jamaica vs blacks from the USA, Bermuda and Africa.

Personally, I do not believe that Africentric are a good idea. Initial academic results may show some improvement but I believe that is because of the staffing formulas and the fact that parents are more involved. Those involved are under the microscope to show success and the additional motivation tends to create success.

BTW - What is considered to be a "black" student; full black, half black, quarter black, eighth black, any blood ancestry or just looks black?

I believe that segregating students by their appearance is a mistake.

I understand that the intent is to focus on the pride of ancestry but to discriminate is wrong - for any reason.

We are not really discussing an American context here. But the biggest conflicts the world has seen has been white on white conflicts in the multiple european world wars. So by your logic there should not be any eurocentric education. Ie. Germans and French fought alot in history, so there should be no french schools in canada. Kind of silly argument.

Its not like the factors you mention are completely irrelvent but they are minor factors. If Jamaicans and African americans are fighting and they have a common experience and shared history, then what do you think happens between more different cultures like blacks and whites?

"Students hurl racial slurs as black teen beaten at Ontario's Sutton highschool"

http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/1024566/students-hurl-racial-slurs-as-teen-beaten-at-sutton-high-school/

Your question on what is considered black is misguided. Its not a black only school as has been widely misreported. It is an africentric school with a focus on african and carribean or black cultural history. White students are free to attend if they so choose. We are not segregating students. Segregation is forced sepearation. This is voluntary program. No one is forced to join. Students aren't being seperated on their racial appearance but upon their preferences for an enriched ethnic cultural program.

Bare in mind the mainstream english system is designed for white english/western european students who form the majority of canada. Hence no speciality school is even really required for them because the mainstream program has been made for them.

If you believe that any seperation upon culture is wrong, then you basically oppose the entire Canadian system which is based upon canada as a cultural mosaic the opposite of an american style melting pot. Where the Americans would cringe at someone whose ancestors who came here in the 1600s calling themselves a "French American" Canadians are widely expected and accepted to be accept this kind of person as a "French Canadian". The American dislike the idea of a hyphenated American, the Canadian EMBRACES the idea of a hyphenated-canadian.

Because we have over 70+ publicly funded cultural schools including greek, ukranian, aboriginal, gay, lgbt, english, french, italian, various catholic and russian cultural schools here in toronto. And there are not alot of black russians i'd wager. Even the province of quebec and 3 of our territories are formed around seperation of cultural units and th eprovince of manitobe originally was as well I believe was suppose to be some kind of metis homeland oh and all those indian reserves. Can you explain to me how it is discrimination to have an africentric program which any race could attend but it is not discriminatory to have a french centric program. Is it blacks having a program is racist but whites (chinese, indians, arabs, hindus etc) having programs are not racist? I am quiet confused as to what you see is discriminatory here. From my view, the only real discrimination would be the fact that every major and minor cultural/ethnic/religious group from aboriginals to gays to chinese, indians, arabs, hindus, urdus buddhist etc have their own publicly funded schools in toronto except blacks.

The one thing that Asians have in common are parents with high expectations when it comes to school. Many also have the perception that non-asian parents tend to have low expectations. This means that they will feel more confident that another asian will be a more reliable partner when it comes to group work in school. I suspect their tune would have changed if they believed that you were driven to excel academically and that you would be an asset to whatever group work is being done. That said, it does sound like you were the victim of racism in this example but I have to note the racism did not come from the majority culture but from another minority. There are people who argue that only whites can be racist and this is a good example of how there are completely wrong.

At Tim, I don't deny that for the most part the majority culture of white people in Canada are not racist anymore, or if so, they are very good at hiding their racism to a level where I can at best struggle to detect it. While they may have a slip of their tongue here or there, I understand that some of them were raised by parents who speak in these ways and grew up in racist times and bad habits die hard. But this is not racism per se, sometimes they may just be unaware of what they said is offensive. Come to think of it, even the Russians (who have a reputation as the most racist of whites) foreign students were not so racist to the blacks as the asians were. While they did make tinged jokes here or there, it was more of a ball busting thing than a true form of racism like you are black so I will ignore you and not work with you.

In terms of africentric vs eurocentrick schooling its more a school system and subtle biases left over from eras of bygone that is the issue than "overt white racism" per se. It is a system setup by and for white western european adults for white western european students/children reflecting their own cultural values. African and carribeans have different cultures and values and methods than whites as it applies to education. In the british style west european school a good student gets into lines, sits down, shuts up, doesn't talk to anyone around does precisely as he is told by the instructor and raises his hand if he has a question and most importantly doesn't ask too many question hence be labelled a troubled student. Hence order in the classroom and well ordered students is the most valued thing.

This contradicts the african styles of learning at every curve. Where a good student would walk around talk to other students, engage and share ideas, doesn't do precisely as he is told but takes his own intiatives, doesn't ask permission and challenges and questions the instructor and their beliefs and assumption on a consistent basis upon their knowledge and is free to come and go as they please without asking permission. In such an environment creativity and challenging assumptions are highly valued. A student who paints on his desk or on the school would be seen as exercising his creativity. A student who simply sat down and waited for instruction from the instructor would be thought of as lacking in multiple disciplines to say the least. But in the eurocentrick system, the good african student could be labelled a trouble maker, who disrupts class doesn't pay attention, ask too many questions and vandalizes the schools and property and would find himself quickly suspended or in the office.

In fact such a student may come to the conclusion that the instructor is singling them out, without ever seeing the cultural gap. He may then conclude the instructor is a racist because only his race differentiates him from the other students he is picking on. And a eurocentric instructor might see the black student as disruptive without reason without ever seeing or recognizing the cultural gap- something which is highly likely given most Canadian whites upbringing to be "Color blind" and not see cultural differences. So different cultural behaviour is not just different in the eyes of this white canadian instructor, different behaviour is now bad and disruptive because it doesn't conform to what he has been taught was a cultural norm. And because he cannot see color and culture he comes to conclude that there must be something wrong with black parents. After all, there is no one/thing else left to blame.

Now what will be the outcome of this. The white instructor has come to view this student as a problem child and the parent as a problem parent. The instructor will likely dislike the student and exercise some forms of discretion against them since they dislike them due to what they see as bad behaviour. The black student will use these examples where other non-black students were given preferences as evidence of discrimination and re-confirm his initial thoughts. The student complains to the parent. The parent meets with the teacher. Teacher learns he is being accused of racism. Doesn't think he is racist and thinks the parent is playing the race card. And is probably confused. The principal ends up in the middle of this and will likely know they can do very little or nothing. Black parent walks away thinking the teacher is racist and the white principal is covering up for his white colleague.

Alot of this has to do with two incompatible cultures that cannot peacefully co-exist in a school environment side by side. If the white teachers could do better they would have done better but 40% drop out rate is the best they can do for blacks. You either accept the white teachers have done the best they could, or you accept they are purposefully racist and purposefully sabotaging blacks education. In which case it only further justifies africentric schooling. If blacks could do better than 50% at risk of dropping out in the eurocentrick system, they would have done it already. You either accept both sides have put their best effort forward or one race is just bad and the other is good in which case it only justify africentric schooling.

I found your comment on Asian enlightening. But when one examines what causes Asians to hold these views that non-Asians in the SAME academic program as them are somehow less capable than them (when we all graduate in the top 1% of our respective graduating classes) is still lost upon me. Do you have an answer for this? As for proving that you are driven to excel, how can you even do that when you are not even given a chance to prove it, they shoot you down when they see your eyes are round and your skin isn't yellow?

It'd be like going to an interview where the interviewer was chinese and you had a ph.d in mandarin and cantonese and astro physics, and as soon as he sees that you are white with round eyes and white skin, he closes the door in your face before you even get to show you are capable.

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This contradicts the african styles of learning at every curve.

Again, I disagree with the notion that one's preferred style of learning is determined by one's melanin count. Different cultures exist but it is as racist for blacks to assume that every other black shares the same culture as it is for a white or asian to make the same assumption.

But in the eurocentrick system, the good african student could be labelled a trouble maker, who disrupts class doesn't pay attention, ask too many questions and vandalizes the schools and property and would find himself quickly suspended or in the office.

Punishments handed out based on stereotypes are a problem, however, the way to deal with these education about how to assess incidents objectively - not by segregating the school system.

I found your comment on Asian enlightening. But when one examines what causes Asians to hold these views that non-Asians in the SAME academic program as them are somehow less capable than them (when we all graduate in the top 1% of our respective graduating classes) is still lost upon me. Do you have an answer for this?

As I said before, it is a perception based on ethnic stereotypes and the only way to eliminate these preconceptions is to create a environment where people interact with people who are from different backgrounds which leads to people to judging others as individuals rather than their stereotype. Segregated school systems only exacerbate these stereotypes.

That said, many stereotypes are based on real statistics and which means it will impossible to eliminate the stereotypes. The lesson that people need to learn is the differences between individuals is larger than any statistical difference between groups so when dealing with individuals you must treat them as individuals. This distinction is easier to learn when people meet others that break the stereotype.

It'd be like going to an interview where the interviewer was chinese and you had a ph.d in mandarin and cantonese and astro physics, and as soon as he sees that you are white with round eyes and white skin, he closes the door in your face before you even get to show you are capable.

There are many service sector jobs in Vancouver now that a white person could not get because they are white. Speaking fluent Mandarin would likely open some doors but not all. Edited by TimG
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Again, I reject the notion that one's preferred style of learning is determined by one's melanin count. Different cultures exist but it is as racist for blacks to assume that every other black shares the same culture as it is for a white or asian to make the same assumption.

Punishments handed out based on racial stereotypes are a problem, however, the way to deal with these education - not by segregating the school system.

As I said before, it is a perception based on ethnic stereotypes and the only way to eliminate these preconceptions is to create a environment where people interact with people who are from different backgrounds which leads to people to judging others as individuals rather than their stereotype. Segregated school systems only exacerbate these stereotypes.

That said, many stereotypes are based on real statistics and which means it will impossible to eliminate the stereotypes. The lesson that people need to learn is the differences between individuals is larger than any statistical difference between groups so when dealing with individuals you must treat them as individuals. This distinction is easier to learn when people meet others that break the stereotype.

There are many service sector jobs in Vancouver now that a white person could not get because they are white. Speaking fluent Mandarin would likely open some doors but not all.

Who said every other black shares the same culture? The major black ethnic groups in Canada do share similar cultures though. But not all.

Alot of these punishments stem from subtle cultural differences that most whites and blaacks are not even aware of. If it could have been educated out they would have done it already. Most black parents are tired of battling a system which is clearly stacked against their children with the end result is there child ends out losing, dropping out, joining a gang or worse ends up dead.

The Canadian school system by your definition of segregation (seperating any culture) is already heavily segregated with over 70+ different segregated speciality schools in the city of toronto alone.

Forced integrated schools actually exacerbate racial stereotypes and here is how. The british and mainstream european schools have a system which vilifies black cultures and tells black students they are unimportant and don't matter and are not relevent to the human experience. They are portrayed solely as people who were enslaved from unnamed countries and at some point where freed by whites who then later sicked dogs on them, treated them like dirt and then sprayed them with hoses before deciding to give them some freedom. Blacks students are told they don't matter.

The only thing near a positive image they will see is a gangster rapper with a gold tooth and a big car and lots of money and women, and that is a big step up from a slave or a nothing. Because when you are told you are nothing you'll latch onto anything of anyone who looks like you and looks even semi successful. In otherwords, it is the eurocentrick system that makes black children vulnerable to the gangster rap culture which whites then turn around and blame blacks for joining.

Black students in the eurocentrick system will not break stereotypes, they will actually be pushed into the hands of them. This is what we have seen historically. If anything it will make whites more racist against blacks not less because the blacks they will encounter will fulfill the negative stereotypes. Because when the only knowledge a black has is the negative one from the dominant culture, he'll live up to it.

It is the africentric system which can allow him to break free from it by giving him an alternate path. When the black student sees black images, black teachers, blacks in his textbooks, black principals, black history and positive black re-enforcement of his identity and black culture and traditional learning, he will then be in a position to reject the negative stereotypes from the dominant culture which views him as a less than and say I can do better than.

It is then that the black student will be in a position to meet other cultural groups on equal terms.

If white teachers could do better than a 40% drop out rate and 50% at risk of dropping in the city of toronto for black students, they would already have done it, they had 50 years, what are they waiting for. You either accept they were purposely sabotaging the education of black kids or are so racist they constantly ruin their education out of malaise and hatred or this is the best they can do. I reject the idea they are purposely screwing kids. 60% graduation and half of them from remedial classes is the BEST white teachers can do for black students in this city.

You either black students are just lazy and don't work as hard or aren't trying their best, or they have put their best foot forward but are in a broken system that is setup against them. I reject the idea they are lazy. I think they put their best foot forward in an anti-black prejudiced eurocentrick system.

Both whites and blacks have put their best foot forward to help blacks in the eurocentrick system in toronto and it failed miserably. The system cannot be fixed. Black parents are tired of arguing and suing white administrators to change a bias system while their kids drop out or come home in body bags. And I bet white administrators and teachers are probably tired of being accused of racism where they think their actions are well intentioned and not racist.

They want their own system just like all the other cultural groups, many of whom are only a fraction of the size of the blacks in toronto like the greeks and ukranians have their own systems here, publicly funded.

The eurocentrick and africentric school models are diametrically opposed to each other in almost every regard. They are simply incompatible. The opposite of white is black. The opposite of black is white. The different white groups like the catholics and protestants and french and italian roman catholics and ukranians and english seculars all can't even get along with each other so they all have seperate publicly funded school systems here. If an Italian and a french of a french and an english who are both white and look alike cannot get along in the same system, then how is a black and a white or english or french going to get along when their cultures are polar opposite.

Canada is a cultural mosaic, we work best when we all stay seperated from each other on equal terms.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hernan you have any idea how patronizing, insulting you are when referring to black people?

What a crock. Not only do you stereotype all blacks as idiots unable to function in a non black environment but you project racist thought on them

saying they can't identify with non blacks.

The vast majority of blacks will not put their children in segregated schools or anywhere near people like you.

So by the way why stop at a school? Why not bring them back to Africa when you are done or do you plan to create a black province.

Do you intend to be the elder of this black community? Yah I get it. Another day another cult.

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I won't pretend to be all knowing, I don't know of all asian cultures. I was just speaking of my specific experiences. From what I observed the koreans for instant would work seamlessly well with the chinese or japanese or viet or thai or filipino etc. But if you were non-asian they'd outright refuse to work with you. They claimed that was their culture to the chagrin of many of us non-asians who had the misfortune of ending up in a 35 person section with 34 asians all of whom share this common culture. And I say chagrin because the school made group projects a huge part of the program and you'd end up doing the Group project by yourself. But this is off topic anyhow.

You're ignorant of Asian history sir.

Koreans and Japanese hate each other as do Chinese and Japanese. South Korea doesn't like China because of their alliance with N Korea.

Long standing fueds between these countries throughout their histories.

Who do continually use europe trick and afrocentric? One with a k. It's not a typo but deliberate.

I don't understand why the lefties have to continously make excuses for the black man under achieving. I am a non white who was taught within the white system as you call it. I did just fine. Was never made to feel like I was less than. I was treated just as anyone else.

I completed post graduate studies and now have a career,family and am successful. How did I do it under such a racist system as you put it?

Segregation is what we fought against in the USA. Now you wish to segregate the races in Canada. What you are suggesting is nothing more than a type of apartheid. A system where the races develop separately.

Edited by LemonPureLeaf
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You're ignorant of Asian history sir.

Koreans and Japanese hate each other as do Chinese and Japanese. South Korea doesn't like China because of their alliance with N Korea.

Long standing fueds between these countries throughout their histories.

Who do continually use europe trick and afrocentric? One with a k. It's not a typo but deliberate.

I don't understand why the lefties have to continously make excuses for the black man under achieving. I am a non white who was taught within the white system as you call it. I did just fine. Was never made to feel like I was less than. I was treated just as anyone else.

I completed post graduate studies and now have a career,family and am successful. How did I do it under such a racist system as you put it?

Segregation is what we fought against in the USA. Now you wish to segregate the races in Canada. What you are suggesting is nothing more than a type of apartheid. A system where the races develop separately.

The politicians might hate each other but put a bunch of koreans and chinese in a room and guess who'll they'll sit with, not the black people!

You aren't black, the eurocentrick system doesn't attack you in the same manner. And I never said there aren't exceptions to racist systems. There are always exceptions to racist system, just like there were jews in the nazi army but we all know nazis hated jews.

How did some jews perform well under stalinist racist regime? There are exceptions. an exception to a racist system isn't the rule. Separation is not segregation. I do wish to separate the races in Canada, not segregate them. No its not apartheid. Any more than all girls schools are apartheid and segregation. Or all catholic schools, or all jew and muslim or all french or all english or ukranian. Or greeks, or italians schools. or aboriginal and irish and english school. or the chinese and indian. Come to think of it, black was the only race in toronto without its own school. No wonder their performance was so bad.

Whites say blacks should be more like the jews and asians, you know those good model minorities. But the asians and jews have their own schools. You are the real racist here. You don't want blacks to have any freedom or agency over their own affairs, you just want to oppress blacks.

And most white Canadians endorse apartheid, they move out an area once it becomes "too ethnic" a good area means a white majority area in their minds usually.

Hernan you have any idea how patronizing, insulting you are when referring to black people?

What a crock. Not only do you stereotype all blacks as idiots unable to function in a non black environment but you project racist thought on them

saying they can't identify with non blacks.

The vast majority of blacks will not put their children in segregated schools or anywhere near people like you.

So by the way why stop at a school? Why not bring them back to Africa when you are done or do you plan to create a black province.

Do you intend to be the elder of this black community? Yah I get it. Another day another cult.

No I have no idea because it isn't patronizing it is truth. You are being politically correct. I never said all blacks are idiots you did. Blacks can't identify with non-blacks whose culture is different, most people can't function well in a DIFFERENT culture.

No one is supporting segregated schools. Although seperate schools are widely supported.

Or why don't you go back to your country?

Why does it matter?

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Hern I do not want you going anywhere. That is the point. You want to separate which is segregation not me. You keep saying most people can'tfunction well in a different culture. No that is not true. That is your subjective opinion-you speak for yourself then project it on others.

I believe you believe what you are saying is best for black people and you believe you are protecting black people from failure. I think you are wrong. Not because you are black. I believe you are wrong because I am a minority as are most Canadians and we have been given a privilege so few have on this planet and that is to function well with other cultures.

Martin Luther King came to my synagogue in 1963. I was very very young. He spoke from his heart.He understood what we felt to be Jewish as a people not a religious concept. He reached out and grabbed our hearts and appealed to our minds and souls as a black man, as a practicing Christian and as a human being. He was all three at once and it made a difference for me.

I grew up with many heroes. Maurice Richard, Jean Beliveau, Muhammed Ali, Doug Harvey, French, Irish, Wasp, name the religion or minority.

Many are like me. We faced being beaten up and ridiculed but we fought back and gained respect that way and we became close friends with the very people who started off attacking us.

Its life.I can not imagine being the Jew I am without my non Jewish role models. My family came to be everything my ancestors dreamed of because of righteous gentiles along the way and a legal system once racist, that evolved to what it is today, sure with problems, but inclusive.

I embrace British laws and respect them for what they have allowed me now to have in Canada.

I embrace the vets my Dad fought side by side with of every kind of people, who fought for freedom. When you are with war vets, you realize their blood/sacrifice transcends any cultural differences.

I doubt you can understand what I say but its not go away, its come here, sit down and have a beer. Stop portraying yourself as weak and in need of separating. That is b.s.

I despise separatism in Quebec because I believe if the French Quebecers had separated they could have never played in a greater world and shown the Anglo world they were as good if not better. Maurice Richard symbolizes a pride all minorities should have in themselves and showed you bloody well fight to get your respect at times but you will prevail.

Any anglo hockey fan knows what I mean.They respected him just as French Quebecers could embrace Anglos like Howie Morenz, George Vezina Harvey,Sawchuck. Makita, Bucyk, Esposito, Duff, Mahovolich, Conacher, Horton.

This country is made up of minorities helping each other and transcending fear of one another.

Seperating blacks in their own schools is segregation, and its rejected by the majority of blacks in Toronto that is a fact as was demonstrated by the lack of support for the idea. It is a backwords step.

It started to to try help aboriginal children and gay children and I don't think in the real world hatred goes away because you hide children from it and try repaint the world one colour. That is denial. It's self defeating behaviour.

In an ideal world, none of us would have to create special measures to protect ourselves from threat of each other.History has shown that is not always possible In Canada we have that possibility.

You want to break down the mosaic and create self centered inbred, isolated ghettoes, minorities like me will fight you because we think you deserve better than the place you put yourself in.

No do not ask me to encourage you to hide from me. Stand side by side. If you do not want that then I have the right to say, no we can't build a country if people like you demand you operate as an island.

It's not how nations are built and those people you call white and I call gentiles are people I choose to respect. If some hate me because I am a Jew, thanks I can handle that. I don't need a special school where I only am told only about Jews.Nonsense. I will reach out to and respect gentiles and compromise at times and show them the generosity they have shown me. The fact that some are idiots-so what? My people have our share of idiots. We all do. Its life.

This minority asks for no privileges. Thanks. I can wait in line with the rest. I can handle that.I have a piece of bread and someone is hungry I share it. I don't give a damn who they are if they are hungry.That is what I was taught by many people of many cultures.

Edited by Rue
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