israel responds to terrorism by killing civilians

[Saipan]

when you shoot a rocket into a building and 5 of the 8 killed are civilian, then you are killing civilians indiscriminately.

ALL terrorists are civilians.

How many civilians would you kill if you take out one of Saddams 30mm antiaircraft pieces placed on roofs of apartment buildings in Baghdad?

[M.Dancer]

i'm hoping that's sarcasm but it's most likely not. when you shoot a rocket into a building and 5 of the 8 killed are civilian, then you are killing civilians indiscriminately.

Not according to the GC...because the 3 who are not civilians may represent a high value target whose importance outweighs the civilian loss.

You do remember the GC? The presence of civilians does not make a target immune to attack.

[Rue]

Other than reading about you unwinding your testicles,which is something I really don't need to know about...

I agree with everything you said..

I find the other two,kinda...Distatsteful people not really interested in any sort of solution...

Lol Jack yah the gonad reference is not something you should try at home. Only people skilled in yoga might want to consider it. I hear certain politicians have mastered it though. Not that I am saying Jack Layton has I

mean I don't make that kind of political cheap shot. I have more class that then that.

[Rue]

the mufti was to the nazis and vice versa as the christian phalangist of lebanon and israel were to each other in the 80's.

they shared a common enemy and used each other to achieve their own agenda.

Right.

Simply trotting that out and trying to smeer all Falangists now as well as Israelis-that's supposed to make your contention more credible?

Your attempts to revise history and trot out the Israelis are Nazis smeer speaks for itself.

Your attempt to try switch the focus of this topic to a new one and one which whitewashes the Nazi origins of the present day Palestinian terrorists speaks for itself as well.

For those of us who do not live in fantasy land we have read the Mufti's own words in his memoirs:

"Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: The Jews are yours."

We also have read the testimony of Eichman's assistant Dieter Wislicency and his description of the role the Mufti played in the holocaust, i.e.,

"The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures."

Save it Bud. All you do is render yourself an absurdity on this forum.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Rue

[Jonsa]

A Nazi apologist. Cool. You're rare these days.

PS Obergruppenführer, Germany lost WW2.

Fuck you.

[Jonsa]

i'm hoping that's sarcasm but it's most likely not. when you shoot a rocket into a building and 5 of the 8 killed are civilian, then you are killing civilians indiscriminately. [\quote]

No, you are not indiscriminately killing civilians, you are targeting combatants that are illegally attempt to shield themselves with civilians. It is not a random act nor one lacking in judgement.

I was being sarcastic. I jumbled indiscriminant with deliberate - a claim some make.

according to who? is there an independent report done that shows 'a significant number of those civilian deaths [in cast lead] were a direct result of hamas' strategy of human shields'? goldstone came to the conclusion that hamas did not use civilians as human shield. something that he has not retracted. he also has not retracted that on several occasions, the IDF used civilians as human shield (link- page 19+) during cast lead.

I am aware goldstone did not conclude that hamas used civilians as human shields. He concluded that there was no evidence available to him. considering his methodology one would have been shocked as shit if he did come up with such evidence.

Hamas MP Fathi Hammad: We Used Women and Children as Human

http://blog.camera.org/archives/HumanShields.jpg

i'm not defending hamas' tactics. they have lost credibility by indiscriminately firing rockets at civilians in israel. i don't think anyone here disputes that they are guilty of violating international law. that still doesn't mean that we shouldn't have to get the facts straight. i prefer to see facts discussed instead of misinformation that has been widely accepted as fact. like, for example, it's actually the idf who has repeatedly used civilians as human shield.

I agree with you that it shouldnt be misrepresented. Like Hamas uses civilians as human shields. You are aware that during Cast Lead, Hamas headquartered in the basement of a hospital aren't you?

the jenin incident and the attack on gaza were different in that the size of areas were different, the option of 'getting out of dodge' were different and the military tactics were different.

True, but even in Cast Lead the IDF notified residents.

i do recommend that you and anyone else to check all the reports that are out there. the goldstone report is 575 pages of findings which highlights the approach to the operation on different sides. there are also reports by HRW, AI, b'tselem and other organizations.

I have read portions of the goldstone report. I am disturbed by his methodology and the inability to investigate many of claims he included in his conclusions. that being said, I am positive that many of the incidents described actually occured, its the interpretative conclusions I have some reservations about.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Jonsa

[Jonsa]

A Nazi apologist. Cool. You're rare these days.

PS Obergruppenführer, Germany lost WW2.

How you could arrive at such a conclusion given what I posted is beyond me. I suppose you think you are clever.

Apparently I am not allowed by forum rules to respond as this deliberate BLATANT INSULT deserves.

So I'll just sweetly say, please kiss my ass.

[Jonsa]

A Nazi apologist. Cool. You're rare these days.

PS Obergruppenführer, Germany lost WW2.

Apparently my first response to you suggesting you indulge in self gratification and then my second response to please demonstrate affection for my buttocks is a blatant insult according Hardner and my posts disappeared.

I consider your post to be a deliberate personal insult.

[bud]

I am aware goldstone did not conclude that hamas used civilians as human shields. He concluded that there was no evidence available to him. considering his methodology one would have been shocked as shit if he did come up with such evidence.

Hamas MP Fathi Hammad: We Used Women and Children as Human

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=J08GqXMr3YE

http://blog.camera.o...umanShields.jpg

http://www.youtube.c...vHDyuSTneA&NR=1

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

a few things:

#1 - the screaming hamas man in the first video didn't say "we used women and children as human shield". he said the people formed a shield around the fighters. palestinians volunteering to use themselves as shield has been documented before. as dumb as it may be, it's their choice to do this. actually, the goldstone report talks about this [page 145]:

475. The Mission is also aware of the public statement by Mr. Fathi Hammad, a Hamas member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, on 29 February 2009, which is adduced as evidence of Hamas’ use of human shields. Mr. Hammad reportedly stated that

… the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death seeking. For the Palestinian people, death became an industry, at which women excel and so do all people on this land: the elderly excel, the mujahideen excel and the children excel. Accordingly, [Hamas] created a human shield of women, children, the elderly and the mujahideen, against the Zionist bombing machine.335

476. Although the Mission finds this statement morally repugnant, it does not consider it to constitute evidence that Hamas forced Palestinian civilians to shield military objectives against attack. The Government of Israel has not identified any such cases.

#2 - you weren't able to show me any reports that backs your claim that a 'a significant number of those civilian deaths [in cast lead] were a direct result of hamas'. all you've done is show random videos which are from pre-cast lead attack. you and some others here want to discredit the goldstone report while using random youtube videos to counter his report? this type of irresponsible debating tactic should be left to people like dancer and dogonporch. you're above that.

I agree with you that it shouldnt be misrepresented. Like Hamas uses civilians as human shields. You are aware that during Cast Lead, Hamas headquartered in the basement of a hospital aren't you?

i'd love to see something, anything to back up this claim.

here is what the goldstone report [page 143] had to say about that:

466. In its report, the Government of Israel states that Hamas used two units and a groundfloor wing of al-Shifa hospital, the largest in the Gaza Strip, as a military base. 325 As its sources, it cites an interview with a “Hamas activist” captured by Israel and an Italian newspaper article, 326 which in turn bases this assertion on a single anonymous source. The Mission did not investigate the case of al-Shifa hospital and is not in a position to make any finding with regard to these allegations.

467. On the basis of the investigations it has conducted, the Mission did not find any evidence to support the allegations made by the Israeli Government.

True, but even in Cast Lead the IDF notified residents.

that is true. here is part of the report that discusses these warnings. page 151+:

A. Warnings

498. The Israeli Government has stated that it took the following steps to warn the civilian population of Gaza: 347

• • The Israeli armed forces made 20,000 calls on 27 December and 10,000 on 29 December 2008;
  
• • 300,000 warning notes were dropped over the whole of the Gaza Strip on 28 December;
  
• • 80,000 leaflets were dropped in Rafah on 29 December;
  
• • In the context of the beginning of ground operations on 3 January, 300,000 leaflets were dropped in the entire Gaza Strip, especially in the northern and eastern parts;
  
• • On 5 January, 300,000 leaflets were dropped in Gaza City, Khan Yunis and Rafah;
  
• • In total some 165,000 telephone calls were made throughout the military operations;348
  
• • In total some 2,500,000 leaflets were dropped. 349
  

7. Conclusions

535. While noting the statements of the significant efforts made by the Israeli armed forces to issue warnings, the sole question for the Mission to consider at this point is whether the different kinds of warnings issued can be considered as sufficiently effective in the circumstances to constitute compliance with article 57 (2) ©.

536. The Mission accepts that the warnings issued by the Israeli armed forces in some cases encouraged numbers of people to flee and get out of harm’s way in respect of the ground invasion, but this is not sufficient to consider them as generally effective.

537. The Mission considers that some of the leaflets with specific warnings, such as those that Israel indicates were issued in Rafah and al-Shujaeiyah, may be regarded as effective. However, the Mission does not consider that general messages telling people to leave wherever they were and go to city centres, in the particular circumstances of this military campaign, meet the

threshold of effectiveness.

538. The Mission regards some specific telephone calls to have provided effective warnings but treats with caution the figure of 165,000 calls made. Without sufficient information to know how many of these were specific, it cannot say to what extent such efforts might be regarded as effective.

539. The Mission does not consider the technique of firing missiles into or on top of buildings as capable of being described as a warning, much less an effective warning. It is a dangerous practice and in essence constitutes a form of attack rather than a warning.

540. The Mission is also mindful of several incidents it has investigated where civilians were killed or otherwise harmed and met with humiliation and degrading treatment by Israeli soldiers, while fleeing from locations about which some form of warning was issued. The effectiveness of the warnings has to be assessed in the light of the overall circumstances that prevailed and the subjective view of conditions that the civilians concerned would take in deciding upon their response to the warning.

[Tilter]

is this okay?

Hamas says didn't mean to target Israeli school bus

Thursday's attack, which critically wounded a teen and moderately wounded a bus driver, has sparked latest round of border fighting; Israel air strikes have killed 17 Gazans thus far as rockets continue to be fired into Israel.

"It was not known that the bus targeted on the outskirts of Gaza carried schoolchildren," spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri told Reuters, adding that the road where the bus was travelling was often used by Israeli military vehicles.

link

thankfully, no one was killed. however, a school bus was hit and civilians were injured.

hamas says it didn't mean to target the bus. according to the israeli apologists, shrugging and saying 'we didn't mean to target civilians' makes hamas' attack justifiable.

in other news:

The early morning air strike brought the two-day death toll from Israel's ongoing retaliation to 17 Gazans - 10 militants, a Hamas policeman and six civilians

And I can hear it all now, "Darn that bus had kids on it. We have to be more careful, the bus was half empty"

Todays paper reported that they want a ceasefire . And yet the rockets continued to fly. They must be almost out of rockets or they would never have done anything as drastic as ask for a truce.

[Jonsa]

a few things:

#1 - the screaming hamas man in the first video didn't say "we used women and children as human shield". he said the people formed a shield around the fighters. palestinians volunteering to use themselves as shield has been documented before. as dumb as it may be, it's their choice to do this. actually, the goldstone report talks about this [page 145]:

475. The Mission is also aware of the public statement by Mr. Fathi Hammad, a Hamas member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, on 29 February 2009, which is adduced as evidence of Hamas use of human shields. Mr. Hammad reportedly stated that

… the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death seeking. For the Palestinian people, death became an industry, at which women excel and so do all people on this land: the elderly excel, the mujahideen excel and the children excel. Accordingly, [Hamas] created a human shield of women, children, the elderly and the mujahideen, against the Zionist bombing machine.335

476. Although the Mission finds this statement morally repugnant, it does not consider it to constitute evidence that Hamas forced Palestinian civilians to shield military objectives against attack. The Government of Israel has not identified any such cases.

Okay, it doesn't constitute evidence. However Goldstone himself uses the same translation. I am unaware that there was an alternative translation that differs from what it says in his report and obviously neither was he.

#2 - you weren't able to show me any reports that backs your claim that a 'a significant number of those civilian deaths [in cast lead] were a direct result of hamas'. all you've done is show random videos which are from pre-cast lead attack. you and some others here want to discredit the goldstone report while using random youtube videos to counter his report? this type of irresponsible debating tactic should be left to people like dancer and dogonporch. you're above that.

Point taken.

i'd love to see something, anything to back up this claim.

here is what the goldstone report [page 143] had to say about that:

466. In its report, the Government of Israel states that Hamas used two units and a groundfloor wing of al-Shifa hospital, the largest in the Gaza Strip, as a military base. 325 As its sources, it cites an interview with a Hamas activist captured by Israel and an Italian newspaper article, 326 which in turn bases this assertion on a single anonymous source. The Mission did not investigate the case of al-Shifa hospital and is not in a position to make any finding with regard to these allegations.

467. On the basis of the investigations it has conducted, the Mission did not find any evidence to support the allegations made by the Israeli Government.

So, he didn't investigate the claim, that doesn't mean it wasn't true. However, one would reasonably conclude that if it was true there would be some evidence that Israel would be anxious to disclose. I shall concede that it is unsubstantiated.

Para 467 either is contradicting the last sentence of 466 or is refering to other claims.

that is true. here is part of the report that discusses these warnings. page 151+:

A. Warnings

498. The Israeli Government has stated that it took the following steps to warn the civilian population of Gaza: 347

• The Israeli armed forces made 20,000 calls on 27 December and 10,000 on 29 December 2008;
  
• 300,000 warning notes were dropped over the whole of the Gaza Strip on 28 December;
  
• 80,000 leaflets were dropped in Rafah on 29 December;
  
• In the context of the beginning of ground operations on 3 January, 300,000 leaflets were dropped in the entire Gaza Strip, especially in the northern and eastern parts;
  
• On 5 January, 300,000 leaflets were dropped in Gaza City, Khan Yunis and Rafah;
  
• In total some 165,000 telephone calls were made throughout the military operations;348
  
• In total some 2,500,000 leaflets were dropped. 349
  

7. Conclusions

535. While noting the statements of the significant efforts made by the Israeli armed forces to issue warnings, the sole question for the Mission to consider at this point is whether the different kinds of warnings issued can be considered as sufficiently effective in the circumstances to constitute compliance with article 57 (2) ©.

536. The Mission accepts that the warnings issued by the Israeli armed forces in some cases encouraged numbers of people to flee and get out of harms way in respect of the ground invasion, but this is not sufficient to consider them as generally effective.

537. The Mission considers that some of the leaflets with specific warnings, such as those that Israel indicates were issued in Rafah and al-Shujaeiyah, may be regarded as effective. However, the Mission does not consider that general messages telling people to leave wherever they were and go to city centres, in the particular circumstances of this military campaign, meet the

threshold of effectiveness.

538. The Mission regards some specific telephone calls to have provided effective warnings but treats with caution the figure of 165,000 calls made. Without sufficient information to know how many of these were specific, it cannot say to what extent such efforts might be regarded as effective.

539. The Mission does not consider the technique of firing missiles into or on top of buildings as capable of being described as a warning, much less an effective warning. It is a dangerous practice and in essence constitutes a form of attack rather than a warning.

540. The Mission is also mindful of several incidents it has investigated where civilians were killed or otherwise harmed and met with humiliation and degrading treatment by Israeli soldiers, while fleeing from locations about which some form of warning was issued. The effectiveness of the warnings has to be assessed in the light of the overall circumstances that prevailed and the subjective view of conditions that the civilians concerned would take in deciding upon their response to the warning.

I'm not sure what a "threshold of effectiveness" is. He is basically criticizing Israel for making an attempt to at least minimize civilian casualites in a time of war. His conclusion seems to raise the bar for Israel beyond any other country in any other war.

He did at least retract his assertion that Israel deliberately targetted civilians.

As an aside, are you not somewhat leery of his methodology? His ability to really only investigate one side of this conflict. Do you think that it is possible that reliance on palestinian input might skew the results. I think basic human nature would motivate some to embellish or lie if it put the enemy that just blew up your house in the worst possible light, n'est-ce pas?

I don't doubt that there violations by the IDF, but I also would allow for a differing interpretation of events if you were either the shooter or the target.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Jonsa

[Saipan]

Todays paper reported that they want a ceasefire .

Arabs want Israel to cease fire. So they can bring more ammo from Egypt.

[Rue]

Arabs want Israel to cease fire. So they can bring more ammo from Egypt.

Lol I do need to learn to be less wordy and to the point like you.

Right to the point.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Rue

[Rue]

The Mufti was NOT a Nazi.

Yes, he certainly wanted to exterminate the jews.

..I won't bother ridiculing your simplistic and narrow interpretation of history and the motivation of its players. I don't know how much time you have spent reading history, but you might want to move out of the childrens section some time.

Jonsa for you to try suggest the Mufti was not an active participant in the holocaust then turn around and try suggest I am manipulating history to suggest he is, and then trying to bait me with the name calling simply reflects on you.

Jonsa before you leap and ridicule-read and no the evidence of the Mufti's direct role in the holocaust does not come from the children's section, it comes from his own memoirs and the Nuremberg trials and page upon page of corroborated evidence. Attacking me personally won't change that fact, his role, or history.

The Mufti was personally responsible for the deaths of 20,000 Jews murdered in the Nazi Holocaust.

He personally arranged the killing of 12,600 Bosnian Jews by Muslims, whom he recruited to the Waffen-SS Nazi-Bosnian division.

He personally interceded to prevent 4,000 Jewish children, and 500 Jewish adults, from leaving Europe and having them sent to Auschwitz to be gassed.

He personally intervened to prevent 2,000 Jews from leaving Romania and 1000 from leaving Hungary and having them sent to Auschwitz to be gassed.

During the Nuremberg Trials in July 1946, Eichmanns assistant, Dieter Wisliczeny, testified that Mufti was a central figure in the planning of the genocide of the Jews. Instead of making idiotic statements about history go read it and read what Wisliczeny testified at Nuremberg including this:

"He (the Mufti) was one of Eichmanns best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chambers of Auschwitz."

It is corroborated fact admitted in his own memoirs that The Grand Mufti repeatedly suggested to the Nazi authorities including Hitler, von Ribbentrop and Himmler that Jews must be exterminated en masse.

Here enjoy his own words in his memoirs:

"Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: The Jews are yours."

The Mufti was in fact the forerunner and number one proponent of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and and pushed both Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan and then would go on to pressure them to increase the level of killings.

He lived as a guest of Hitler in a house stolen from Jews and lived a lavish lifestyle spending stolen Jewish money to keep him fed and drunk.

It is a fact that in the summer of 1944 he sent letters lobbying the governments of Germany, Roumania, Bulgaria, and Hungary to speed the extermination of the Jews by sending them to Poland where the Nazi death chambers were located.

This is the best you have? Ridiculing me? Telling me I am narrowing history and get my information from children's books?

That's the best you have-ridicule and denial? Personal attacks? Lol.

Go on home and come back when you learn to read. Jew baiting will get you nowhere with me.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Rue

[Rue]

The terrorism Israel rights can be traced back to the Mufti and his Nazism.

Of course that doesn't suit the historic revisionism of Bud and Jonsa or their agenda now does it boys?

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1510

http://www.nyjtimes.com/cover/03-08-05/nazirootsofpalestiniannationalism.htm

http://www.sullivan-county.com/immigration/nazi_arab.htm

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/2543

Quick change the subject again!

Edited April 12, 2011 by Rue

[Bob]

Seriously bud, you're not going to get far in your attempts to deny Hamas' intentions to murder civilians, and their stated wish to destroy Israel. Imagine the impression you're making on other posters in here, who now see even more clearly that you are a Hamas-apologist/Hamas-supporter. The intentions of your posts are clear - to downplay/deny the terrorist conduct of Hamas, by using Hamas recent public proclamations as evidence!

Seriously... just take a moment to consider what you're saying and who you're advocating on behalf on.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Bob

[Jonsa]

Jonsa for you to try suggest the Mufti was not an active participant in the holocaust then turn around and try suggest I am manipulating history to suggest he is, and then trying to bait me with the name calling simply reflects on you.

Jonsa before you leap and ridicule-read and no the evidence of the Mufti's direct role in the holocaust does not come from the children's section, it comes from his own memoirs and the Nuremberg trials and page upon page of corroborated evidence. Attacking me personally won't change that fact, his role, or history.

The Mufti was personally responsible for the deaths of 20,000 Jews murdered in the Nazi Holocaust.

He personally arranged the killing of 12,600 Bosnian Jews by Muslims, whom he recruited to the Waffen-SS Nazi-Bosnian division.

He personally interceded to prevent 4,000 Jewish children, and 500 Jewish adults, from leaving Europe and having them sent to Auschwitz to be gassed.

He personally intervened to prevent 2,000 Jews from leaving Romania and 1000 from leaving Hungary and having them sent to Auschwitz to be gassed.

During the Nuremberg Trials in July 1946, Eichmann’s assistant, Dieter Wisliczeny, testified that Mufti was a central figure in the planning of the genocide of the Jews. Instead of making idiotic statements about history go read it and read what Wisliczeny testified at Nuremberg including this:

"He (the Mufti) was one of Eichmann’s best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chambers of Auschwitz."

It is corroborated fact admitted in his own memoirs that The Grand Mufti repeatedly suggested to the Nazi authorities – including Hitler, von Ribbentrop and Himmler that Jews must be exterminated en masse.

Here enjoy his own words in his memoirs:

"Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: The Jews are yours."

The Mufti was in fact the forerunner and number one proponent of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and and pushed both Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan and then would go on to pressure them to increase the level of killings.

He lived as a guest of Hitler in a house stolen from Jews and lived a lavish lifestyle spending stolen Jewish money to keep him fed and drunk.

It is a fact that in the summer of 1944 he sent letters lobbying the governments of Germany, Roumania, Bulgaria, and Hungary to speed the extermination of the Jews by sending them to Poland where the Nazi death chambers were located.

This is the best you have? Ridiculing me? Telling me I am narrowing history and get my information from children's books?

That's the best you have-ridicule and denial? Personal attacks? Lol.

Go on home and come back when you learn to read. Jew baiting will get you nowhere with me.

Well, It would appear as though I don't know as much as I thought I did. I shall do some further research in this area before opening my mouth about it again.

As for jew baiting...... a tad hypersensitive aren't you? a not uncommon condition but I only "bait" people based on my opinion of them or their comments as individuals with the exception of Islamists, white power pinheads and neo nazis.

I don't think you fall into any of those categories.

[Rue]

Well, It would appear as though I don't know as much as I thought I did. I shall do some further research in this area before opening my mouth about it again.

As for jew baiting...... a tad hypersensitive aren't you? a not uncommon condition but I only "bait" people based on my opinion of them or their comments as individuals with the exception of Islamists, white power pinheads and neo nazis.

I don't think you fall into any of those categories.

Thank you for your gracious direct blunt honesty and yes I am a fat head. I fully admit it.

Absolutely hyper on this one and the holocaust and I overreact to it. I genuinely thought you knew and were flipping off the topic. Sorry. I apologize. I try to come across tongue and cheek to people I disagree with and sometimes it comes across mean spirited and personal and if I did sorry. I get intense with some topics but rest assured I know I am a fat head and smell.

I know can sound like a sanctimonious bag of wind. For sure. To know me though is to know I would never pee on your shoes. Just threaten to send pictures to your mother in law if you have one. I have class you know.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Rue

[jbg]

the israeli government is no different than groups who order bus bombings.

But this is O.K. with you? (link)

If Hamas wants to protect its civilians they have a simple way; stop the fighting.

[bud]

But this is O.K. with you? (link)

who said this is "O.K."? what's wrong with you?

[jbg]

who said this is "O.K."? what's wrong with you?

I am removing my prior post. It was called to my attention that it was not a positive contribution to the forum. Edited April 19, 2011 by jbg

[bloodyminded]

You probably gloat over the bloodshed, and legs, heads, flying in different directions. Or at least you enable it.

That's ridiculous. Bud has remained aligned with, for example, the Goldstone's remarks about Hamas, agreeing that they're guilty of "war crimes." (I use the quotations not as "scare quotes," but because I'm directly quoting). He has repeatedly said that terrorism is bad, and worthy of condemnation.

There is only one side of this argument in which one of the agents gets a free pass for everything they do...and it's those who deem themselves "supporters of Israel."

This has become a fairly typical formulation.

To sum it up:

1st person: "One side is doing everyhting right, and is totally justified, and the other side is absolutely wrong in every instance."

2nd person: "No, both sides are behaving very badly."

1st person: "you're a terrorist supporter and an anti-semite!"

[Guest American Woman]

That's ridiculous. Bud has remained aligned with, for example, the Goldstone's remarks about Hamas, agreeing that they're guilty of "war crimes." (I use the quotations not as "scare quotes," but because I'm directly quoting). He has repeatedly said that terrorism is bad, and worthy of condemnation.

Yes, bud has on occasion thrown in a "Hamas is bad" comment amongst his rants against Israel. Nothing ever against "Palestine" while it's always about "Israel." It's not "Israel" and "Palestine" or "Hamas" and "the IDF." Nope. "Palestine" is innocent and "Israel" is evil. And of course he has no problem twisting the truth and misrepresenting quotes and then calling the poster who calls him on it a liar, as the other oh-so-fair Palestine supporters are nowhere to be seen. This is what you choose to defend. Someone who throws the most ludicrous accusations at other posters here.

There is only one side of this argument in which one of the agents gets a free pass for everything they do...and it's those who deem themselves "supporters of Israel."

This has become a fairly typical formulation.

To sum it up:

1st person: "One side is doing everyhting right, and is totally justified, and the other side is absolutely wrong in every instance."

2nd person: "No, both sides are behaving very badly."

1st person: "you're a terrorist supporter and an anti-semite!"

Riiiight. That's the stand that the 2nd person is taking. That "both sides are behaving very badly."

You yourself have admitted that there's disproportionate ire aimed at Israel, and if you think that's being fair-minded, you are wrong. You seem to be under the impression that Israel supporters are oh-so-biased and unfair and one-sided while Palestinian supporters are oh-so-open minded and unbiased and fair because every once in awhile they throw in a "Hamas is bad" amongst all their other rhetoric.

If you don't see the misrepresentations, the twisting of the truth, the outright fabrications that "supporters of Palestine" put forth, you have blinders on ... as you criticize supporters of one side only.

[bloodyminded]

Yes, bud has on occasion thrown in a "Hamas is bad" comment amongst his rants against Israel. Nothing ever against "Palestine" while it's always about "Israel." It's not "Israel" and "Palestine" or "Hamas" and "the IDF." Nope. "Palestine" is innocent and "Israel" is evil. And of course he has no problem twisting the truth and misrepresenting quotes and then calling the poster who calls him on it a liar, as the other oh-so-fair Palestine supporters are nowhere to be seen. This is what you choose to defend. Someone who throws the most ludicrous accusations at other posters here.

I'm in the position where people terrified of honest debate (or else fundamentally stupid, take your pick) have called me, and anyone else who has criticized Israel, an "anti-semite."

So by your standards here, this is what you choose to defend.

You yourself have admitted that there's disproportionate ire aimed at Israel, and if you think that's being fair-minded, you are wrong.

I was referring to, first, UN resolutions, and second, those who seem to believe that Israel behaves worse than any other nations (a preposterous belief).

I wasn't referring to criticizing the behaviour of a close ally whose defenders remain obstinate that every bloody thing is the fault of the Palestinians. They're horribly wrong, and so I will dispute their extremist beleifs on this matter.

I find no fault with the idea of criticizing Israel, even with extreme harshness. I find fault with a focus on Israel that I perceive (correctly or not) lacks a sense of proportion.

And for the record, I similarly perceive a wild sense of disproportion in criticisms of the Palestinians.

You seem to be under the impression that Israel supporters are oh-so-biased and unfair and one-sided while Palestinian supporters are oh-so-open minded and unbiased and fair because every once in awhile they throw in a "Hamas is bad" amongst all their other rhetoric.

Alright, then let me correct your misunderstanding.

Whatever you think is the worth of bud's (and some other posters') concessions to Hamas' iniquity--that you perhaps consider the concessions tepid, or not really meaningful--it rises well above what the self-styled "Israel supporters" who debate him offer along similar lines.

Which is zero.

Nothing.

So if bud's remarks aren't sufficient, or aren't meaningful enough, where does that place his opponents, who don't go nearly so far? The question is instantly and clearly begged.

If you don't see the misrepresentations, the twisting of the truth, the outright fabrications that "supporters of Palestine" put forth, you have blinders on ... as you criticize supporters of one side only.

As you just pointed out my remark about a disproportionate focus on Israel, you seem to be contradicting yourself.

Edited April 17, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Guest American Woman]

I'm in the position where people terrified of honest debate (or else fundamentally stupid, take your pick) have called me, and anyone else who has criticized Israel, an "anti-semite."

So by your standards here, this is what you choose to defend.

I haven't defended them. Show me one post where I've come to their defense.