israel responds to terrorism by killing civilians

[bud]

No..

Fanatics are fanatics...

It does'nt matter if one is in the "Israel Uber Alles" camp or the "Israel Unter Alles" camp...

One really can't expect anything rational from these people...

ah, okay, right jack.

i'm glad you learned your lesson and you'll think twice next time you accuse someone of being on the opposite side of the same extremist coin.

[Bob]

woman watching israel bombing gaza from a hillside: "i think they should just clear off all the city [gaza] and just take it off the ground. yes, i'm a little bit fascist."

bob: I agree with her 100%. Their mere existence is a threat to us. And they never suffer nearly enough for their crimes against us. Nothing fascistic about that.

---

you suck bob.

Look, I'll retract that first sentence - I agree with her, but not 100%. I don't sincerely want Gaza to be "taken off the ground". What I want, however, is a more effective response from the Israeli government, and a complete stop to rockets coming from Gaza. It can be stopped, and it can be stopped quite quickly. The Israeli government, however, is unwilling to do what must be done - because it is afraid of harm befalling civilians.

Edited April 7, 2011 by Bob

[Jack Weber]

ah, okay, right jack.

i'm glad you learned your lesson and you'll think twice next time you accuse someone of being on the opposite side of the same extremist coin.

[Bob]

No...

And I'm not surprised by your lack of comprehension skills...

You and Bob are the OPPOSITE sides of the same extremist coin...

Now lets see if you can figure it out...

I guess it makes you feel better to label me an extremist, whatever that means. I guess supporting Jewish independence and self-determination via Israel and wanting to live in security makes me "extreme".

[Jack Weber]

I guess it makes you feel better to label me an extremist, whatever that means. I guess supporting Jewish independence and self-determination via Israel and wanting to live in security makes me "extreme".

You can call it whatever you like and use whatever justifications you wish...

Frankly,I don't give a damn about people like you or Bud/Naomi/Dub...

The best I can say is that you are their problem now,not ours...

Enjoy your pile of rocks,Bobby...

[Saipan]

It does'nt matter if one is in the "Israel Uber Alles" camp or the "Israel Unter Alles" camp...

One really can't expect anything rational from these people...

True, it's irrational to resist extermination.

[Rue]

The mufti was not a nazi.

He was a sympathizer, because the Nazis were the enemies of his principle enemy- britain.

The fact that the Nazi's also hated jews was just a sweet bonus.

How about before you share any more gems from history you quite while you are ahead.

You might also want to read back the above. Trying to stand and sit at the same time is like trying to speak with your head up yer butt. Not sure if its possible. Careful.

The Mufti was abundantly clear he detested Jews and wanted Jews wiped off the face of the earth not just out of Palestine. He was 100% in support of the final solution and pushed for its implementation.

Let me restate that-he was a principle player in demanding and pressuring that the mass genocide of Jews be implemented.

So for you to suggest he was simply a mutual ally fighting Britain is a total and utter crock and an insult to anyone who actually takes the time to read history.

You want to come on thos firm and engage in the stale Israel is poo poo ka ka comments knock yourself out-try revise history and I will be the first to ridicule and challenge your sordid efforts.

[bloodyminded]

How about before you share any more gems from history you quite while you are ahead.

You might also want to read back the above. Trying to stand and sit at the same time is like trying to speak with your head up yer butt. Not sure if its possible. Careful.

The Mufti was abundantly clear he detested Jews and wanted Jews wiped off the face of the earth not just out of Palestine. He was 100% in support of the final solution and pushed for its implementation.

Let me restate that-he was a principle player in demanding and pressuring that the mass genocide of Jews be implemented.

So for you to suggest he was simply a mutual ally fighting Britain is a total and utter crock and an insult to anyone who actually takes the time to read history.

You want to come on thos firm and engage in the stale Israel is poo poo ka ka comments knock yourself out-try revise history and I will be the first to ridicule and challenge your sordid efforts.

Whether or not you're correct about the history (I certainly am not knowledgeable about this aspect of it), I think you might go a little easier on Jonsa.

You surely can sympathize with someone making some historical errors in conversation, since you yourself have insisted that I'm a "shill for Hamas," a declarative sentence which you could have disproved with a few minutes of using the search function.

I mean, since we're talking "insults" and such.

Edited April 8, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Rue]

Shut up Jack. I would still buy you and Bob a beer. But I get to sit next to American Woman. You 2 louts will have to allow moi to show you how to charm her. As for Bud, I think we need to wait for him to have his bar mitvah before I can explain to him how to hold the door or chair for American Woman. Its a tad early yet.

Yegads without American Woman I would have no hope for humanity. We men just can't seem to figure out how to unwind our political testacles so to speak.(that was an Oleg Bachian type analogy)

Here is the point. The headline for this thread is inflammatory. It suggests Israel woke up and said, oh lets go kill civilians. They did not. This is what peeyisses some of us off-Israel is portrayed as acting in a vacuum and acting for no reason, and deliberately killing civilians. That is what the head line infers and that is the tactic used by those who are against Israel's existence on this forum. They ignore Hamas' precipitating actions or the fact that the IDF was in fact responding directly to Hamas not civilians.

Instead Hamas is conveniently ignored and Israel is simply accused of for no reason-deciding to deliberately target civilians.

Heard it a million times.

Its easy to call an Israeli an extremist when Hamas is trying to kill them and they need to stay alive. Its also easy to call a Palestinian an extremist after their innocent child caught in the return fire is killed and they scream for revenge.

I am loath to judge either. I judge Hamas as being morally culpable for initiating the deaths and I plead again for the IDF to be as careful as possible when returning fire.

If I have any criticism, it is of arm chair security experts far from the conflict zone judging either Palestinians or Israelis. My contempt is reserved for Hamas.

The fools on this forum who think Hamas is benevolent and want to look the other way and suggest Israeli do nothing-they aint even worth the energy any more.

[DogOnPorch]

How about before you share any more gems from history you quite while you are ahead.

You might also want to read back the above. Trying to stand and sit at the same time is like trying to speak with your head up yer butt. Not sure if its possible. Careful.

The Mufti was abundantly clear he detested Jews and wanted Jews wiped off the face of the earth not just out of Palestine. He was 100% in support of the final solution and pushed for its implementation.

Let me restate that-he was a principle player in demanding and pressuring that the mass genocide of Jews be implemented.

So for you to suggest he was simply a mutual ally fighting Britain is a total and utter crock and an insult to anyone who actually takes the time to read history.

You want to come on thos firm and engage in the stale Israel is poo poo ka ka comments knock yourself out-try revise history and I will be the first to ridicule and challenge your sordid efforts.

The Mufti's actions are well documented and his efforts in the Holocaust well know. His greatest crime against humanity was in regards to Jews located in the Axis minor allied countries of Rumania, Bulgaria and Hungary. While the governments of these countries were set to handle their 'Jewish problem' by forced explusion via the Med & Turkey, it was the Mufti that had Eichmann devote the resourses to have them all sent to Poland and their doom. He didn't want them showing up in the Mandate of Palestine. Est death toll: 500-750,000 Jews. This was circa 1944.

[Jack Weber]

Shut up Jack. I would still buy you and Bob a beer. But I get to sit next to American Woman. You 2 louts will have to allow moi to show you how to charm her. As for Bud, I think we need to wait for him to have his bar mitvah before I can explain to him how to hold the door or chair for American Woman. Its a tad early yet.

Yegads without American Woman I would have no hope for humanity. We men just can't seem to figure out how to unwind our political testacles so to speak.(that was an Oleg Bachian type analogy)

Here is the point. The headline for this thread is inflammatory. It suggests Israel woke up and said, oh lets go kill civilians. They did not. This is what peeyisses some of us off-Israel is portrayed as acting in a vacuum and acting for no reason, and deliberately killing civilians. That is what the head line infers and that is the tactic used by those who are against Israel's existence on this forum. They ignore Hamas' precipitating actions or the fact that the IDF was in fact responding directly to Hamas not civilians.

Instead Hamas is conveniently ignored and Israel is simply accused of for no reason-deciding to deliberately target civilians.

Heard it a million times.

Its easy to call an Israeli an extremist when Hamas is trying to kill them and they need to stay alive. Its also easy to call a Palestinian an extremist after their innocent child caught in the return fire is killed and they scream for revenge.

I am loath to judge either. I judge Hamas as being morally culpable for initiating the deaths and I plead again for the IDF to be as careful as possible when returning fire.

If I have any criticism, it is of arm chair security experts far from the conflict zone judging either Palestinians or Israelis. My contempt is reserved for Hamas.

The fools on this forum who think Hamas is benevolent and want to look the other way and suggest Israeli do nothing-they aint even worth the energy any more.

Other than reading about you unwinding your testicles,which is something I really don't need to know about...

I agree with everything you said..

I find the other two,kinda...Distatsteful people not really interested in any sort of solution...

[bud]

How about before you share any more gems from history you quite while you are ahead.

You might also want to read back the above. Trying to stand and sit at the same time is like trying to speak with your head up yer butt. Not sure if its possible. Careful.

The Mufti was abundantly clear he detested Jews and wanted Jews wiped off the face of the earth not just out of Palestine. He was 100% in support of the final solution and pushed for its implementation.

Let me restate that-he was a principle player in demanding and pressuring that the mass genocide of Jews be implemented.

So for you to suggest he was simply a mutual ally fighting Britain is a total and utter crock and an insult to anyone who actually takes the time to read history.

You want to come on thos firm and engage in the stale Israel is poo poo ka ka comments knock yourself out-try revise history and I will be the first to ridicule and challenge your sordid efforts.

the mufti was to the nazis and vice versa as the christian phalangist of lebanon and israel were to each other in the 80's.

they shared a common enemy and used each other to achieve their own agenda.

Edited April 9, 2011 by bud

[bud]

is this okay?

Hamas says didn't mean to target Israeli school bus

Thursday's attack, which critically wounded a teen and moderately wounded a bus driver, has sparked latest round of border fighting; Israel air strikes have killed 17 Gazans thus far as rockets continue to be fired into Israel.

"It was not known that the bus targeted on the outskirts of Gaza carried schoolchildren," spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri told Reuters, adding that the road where the bus was travelling was often used by Israeli military vehicles.

link

thankfully, no one was killed. however, a school bus was hit and civilians were injured.

hamas says it didn't mean to target the bus. according to the israeli apologists, shrugging and saying 'we didn't mean to target civilians' makes hamas' attack justifiable.

in other news:

The early morning air strike brought the two-day death toll from Israel's ongoing retaliation to 17 Gazans - 10 militants, a Hamas policeman and six civilians

[DogOnPorch]

the mufti was to the nazis and vice versa as the christian phalangist of lebanon and israel were to each other in the 80's.

they shared a common enemy and used each other to achieve their own agenda.

Yeah...it's called being allied to the Nazi cause.

[Bob]

Holy God... is bud trying to tell us that Hamas didn't intentionally mean to target a school bus? Is that the same Hamas that has made thousands of proclamations declaring all Jews to be legitimate targets? The same Hamas that props up huge murals all across Gaza to memorialize suicide bombers? The same Hamas that launches rockets and mortars into Israeli towns? The same Hamas that shoots at Jewish civilians in the West Bank?

Bud has officially become the Hamas frontman for MLW!

Bud, I have two simple questions for you:

1. Do you believe that the IDF operates with a much higher degree of moral conduct than Hamas?

2. Are you a Muslim?

[bud]

Holy God... is bud trying to tell us that Hamas didn't intentionally mean to target a school bus? Is that the same Hamas that has made thousands of proclamations declaring all Jews to be legitimate targets? The same Hamas that props up huge murals all across Gaza to memorialize suicide bombers? The same Hamas that launches rockets and mortars into Israeli towns? The same Hamas that shoots at Jewish civilians in the West Bank?

holy god. is bob trying to sell us that hamas is different than the idf when they come to killing civilians? i guess bigger and badder weapons equals more civilian deaths? like the 1000+ palestinian civilians the idf killed during the military action that killed less than a handful of israeli civilians?

i asked a simple question bob. i don't agree with any civilian deaths. not hamas' approach and of course, not idf's approach.

you can try to dismiss the comparison all you want. the comparison still stands. the idf indiscriminatory kills civilians far more than any group involved in this conflict.

[dre]

There is no moral highground to be had here. Its just a garden variety dustup over some dirt and water. Both sides are doing roughly what one would expect them to do.

As for the whole semantic debate over whats "intentional" its pretty unimportant. Youre responsible for both intended consequences of an action, and the easily forseeable unintended ones.

[Saipan]

holy god. is bob trying to sell us that hamas is different than the idf when they come to killing civilians?

Very much so. Hamas is specifically targeting them. Even their OWN kids.

[Jonsa]

How about before you share any more gems from history you quite while you are ahead.

You might also want to read back the above. Trying to stand and sit at the same time is like trying to speak with your head up yer butt. Not sure if its possible. Careful.

The Mufti was abundantly clear he detested Jews and wanted Jews wiped off the face of the earth not just out of Palestine. He was 100% in support of the final solution and pushed for its implementation.

Let me restate that-he was a principle player in demanding and pressuring that the mass genocide of Jews be implemented.

So for you to suggest he was simply a mutual ally fighting Britain is a total and utter crock and an insult to anyone who actually takes the time to read history.

You want to come on thos firm and engage in the stale Israel is poo poo ka ka comments knock yourself out-try revise history and I will be the first to ridicule and challenge your sordid efforts.

The Mufti was NOT a Nazi.

Yes, he certainly wanted to exterminate the jews.

Now, if you think for one second he had any influence on the final solution you are just dumb. the Mufti represented the "sand people", higher than jews in their warped racist scale, but far far below the german ideal. The nazis and the mufti were allies of convenience.

But first and foremost as a Muslim, he wanted to get rid of the British occupiers of muslim land. the ummah is an important islamic concept. they are still whining about losing andalusia 600 years ago. For you not to understand this concept indicates an ignorance of your enemy.

I won't bother ridiculing your simplistic and narrow interpretation of history and the motivation of its players. I don't know how much time you have spent reading history, but you might want to move out of the childrens section some time.

[Jonsa]

holy god. is bob trying to sell us that hamas is different than the idf when they come to killing civilians? i guess bigger and badder weapons equals more civilian deaths? like the 1000+ palestinian civilians the idf killed during the military action that killed less than a handful of israeli civilians?

i asked a simple question bob. i don't agree with any civilian deaths. not hamas' approach and of course, not idf's approach.

you can try to dismiss the comparison all you want. the comparison still stands. the idf indiscriminatory kills civilians far more than any group involved in this conflict.

the IDF does not indiscriminantly kill civilians. If it did, how do you explain that "only" 1400 civilians were killed in Cast Lead?

And a significant number of those civilian deaths were a direct result of Hamas' strategy of human shields.

Hamas deliberately and indiscriminantly targets Israeli civilians as proven by their constant firing of unguided rockets and mortars into civilian areas.

The IDF, otoh, takes great pains to minimize civilian casualities. Hell they even spent two days warning the citizens of Jenin to get out of dodge before they entered. Some 11,000 took the hint before hostilities started.

[Jonsa]

Yeah...it's called being allied to the Nazi cause.

Russia and America were allies in WW2. Did that make America communist?

[Saipan]

Russia and America were allies in WW2. Did that make America communist?

Karl Marx is not the best seller in USA.

Hitler's Mein Kampf was best seller among palestinian Arabs and several Arab countries including Moslem part of Bangladesh.

[DogOnPorch]

Russia and America were allies in WW2. Did that make America communist?

A Nazi apologist. Cool. You're rare these days.

PS Obergruppenführer, Germany lost WW2.

[dre]

A Nazi apologist. Cool. You're rare these days.

PS Obergruppenführer, Germany lost WW2.

[bud]

the IDF does not indiscriminantly kill civilians. If it did, how do you explain that "only" 1400 civilians were killed in Cast Lead?

i'm hoping that's sarcasm but it's most likely not. when you shoot a rocket into a building and 5 of the 8 killed are civilian, then you are killing civilians indiscriminately.

And a significant number of those civilian deaths were a direct result of Hamas' strategy of human shields.

according to who? is there an independent report done that shows 'a significant number of those civilian deaths [in cast lead] were a direct result of hamas' strategy of human shields'? goldstone came to the conclusion that hamas did not use civilians as human shield. something that he has not retracted. he also has not retracted that on several occasions, the IDF used civilians as human shield (link- page 19+) during cast lead.

i'm not defending hamas' tactics. they have lost credibility by indiscriminately firing rockets at civilians in israel. i don't think anyone here disputes that they are guilty of violating international law. that still doesn't mean that we shouldn't have to get the facts straight. i prefer to see facts discussed instead of misinformation that has been widely accepted as fact. like, for example, it's actually the idf who has repeatedly used civilians as human shield.

Hamas deliberately and indiscriminantly targets Israeli civilians as proven by their constant firing of unguided rockets and mortars into civilian areas.

of course. no question there.

The IDF, otoh, takes great pains to minimize civilian casualities. Hell they even spent two days warning the citizens of Jenin to get out of dodge before they entered. Some 11,000 took the hint before hostilities started.

the jenin incident and the attack on gaza were different in that the size of areas were different, the option of 'getting out of dodge' were different and the military tactics were different.

i do recommend that you and anyone else to check all the reports that are out there. the goldstone report is 575 pages of findings which highlights the approach to the operation on different sides. there are also reports by HRW, AI, b'tselem and other organizations.