israel responds to terrorism by killing civilians

[Bonam]

Look the reality is simple, Israel had two choices:

- Take the necessary measures to kill the terrorist in the opportunity that was presented and accept whatever additional casualties may be caused

- Miss that opportunity to kill the terrorist and hope that another viable opportunity turns up later, which it may or may not, or it may be after he has carried out more terrorist attacks

Given that the terrorist posed a threat to Israel and to the lives of Israeli citizens, and that the first priority of a government should be to safeguard the lives of its people, Israel had only one morally correct choice, which was to eradicate the threat, and it carried it out.

Now, Israel generally tries to minimize civilian casualties, whether out of a sincere sense of wanting to spare civilians or, more cynically, because civilian casualties give bad PR. Either way, it is in Israel's interest to reduce civilian casualties. But when intelligence says that a target is somewhere inside an apartment building and killing that target ASAP is a high priority, the only way to ensure that the target will be killed is by doing something that is has a high probability to kill whoever may be in the building. That means other people in the building will also be killed. There is a price to be paid when dealing with terrorists, and civilian casualties are part of that price, as is the bad PR that goes along with inflicting such casualties.

This is something that has been learned first hand by all the Western powers that went into Iraq, or Afghanistan, or any other warzone where terrorism is a factor. Many European nations are quick to condemn Israel when it causes civilian casualties as part of its counterinsurgency operations. And yet, many of those same nations have inflicted civilian casualties themselves in their operations in Afghanistan. They should know that it is not always possible to accomplish a mission in such a way that guarantees that no civilians are harmed.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Bonam

[bud]

Also Jonsa, it's pretty infantile of you to state that I think "all Arabs should leave" or that I am a Baruch Goldstein fanboy or Kahanist. I never said such things or held such sentiments, and you're just trying to smear me in the same way you accuse me (incorrectly) of labelling people anti-Semitic unfairly.

bobby,

didn't you say that all of west bank belongs to the jews in another post? i can find the post if you're going to deny it.

also, didn't you agree with a woman who went out of her way to go to a hillside near the gaza israeli border, during operation cast lead, to watch the idf carpet bomb gaza? that same woman commented how they should all be wiped out and she doesn't care that she's a fascist? again, i can find your post if you're going to deny it.

how are your views different than people like goldstein or kahanist?

[bud]

People sometimes do things they would rather not do.

your justification, which i don't agree with, can be used by those who shoot rockets and blow up buses. they have no other way of fighting against the well-equipped occupier. on one side, they'll shoot homemade rockets and on the other, they'll drop bombs and shoot missiles at targets where they know civilians could be killed. in both instances, they're violating international law.

oh and stop with the bs. no one believes natanyahu's regret that civilians were killed. no one is stupid enough to believe that.

[bud]

Look the reality is simple, Israel had two choices:

you missed the third choice:

- stop giving into the extreme right wing and accept that the greater israel dream is over. that they must sit down and finalize a plan. when israel is not willing to accept abbas' beyond generous offer, as revealed in the palestinian papers, then israel is showing that they're not yet ready to give up on their quest to get as much as land as possible.

[Guest American Woman]

your justification, which i don't agree with, can be used by those who shoot rockets and blow up buses. they have no other way of fighting against the well-equipped occupier. on one side, they'll shoot homemade rockets and on the other, they'll drop bombs and shoot missiles at targets where they know civilians could be killed. in both instances, they're violating international law.

There's a difference between "justification" and "the way things are;" the first is trying to make excuses while the second is accepting the reality. So no, it can't be used by those who shoot rockets and blow up buses with the intent of killing civilians. Which, in case you truly missed it, is celebrated, not regretted. Because their intent is realized when civilians die.

oh and stop with the bs. no one believes natanyahu's regret that civilians were killed. no one is stupid enough to believe that.

You tell me how someone else feels while I say no one knows how another person feels but I'm the one who needs to stop with the bs. I can see why you would need to believe that Natanyahu doesn't have any regret, though, or need to try to push the idea that he doesn't, because you couldn't make the false/misleading claims that you do otherwise. But you truly do make yourself look ignorant when you present your beliefs as facts.

[Bonam]

you missed the third choice:

- stop giving into the extreme right wing and accept that the greater israel dream is over. that they must sit down and finalize a plan. when israel is not willing to accept abbas' beyond generous offer, as revealed in the palestinian papers, then israel is showing that they're not yet ready to give up on their quest to get as much as land as possible.

I agree that Israel must at some point finalize a plan and take the necessary steps to allow the creation of a sovereign Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank. However, that entire issue is entirely beyond the scope of this particular incident.

In this incident, a terrorist attack was conducted against Israel, and Israel took the necessary steps to eradicate the threat that was posed to it. Recounting the history that led to the present situation is not relevant to the fact that Israel has an obligation to keep its citizens safe. And hoping for a negotiated solution that will likely not materialize for many years or decades does not create that safety. Israel had to act, and it did.

The fact that Israel needs to aim for a negotiated peaceful solution in the future does not mean it has to refrain from eliminating threats to its security in the present.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Bonam

[bud]

I agree that Israel must at some point finalize a plan and take the necessary steps to allow the creation of a sovereign Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank. However, that entire issue is entirely beyond the scope of this particular incident.

this incident and the future incidents are a result of the occupation and israel's policy towards the palestinians.

almost all occupiers have received resistance in one form or another. you can go back to before the creation of israel when the british occupied palestine. jewish militant (terrorist) groups killed civilians as a tactic to fight against the occupier. just like the palestinian today, the jewish militants could not match the weapons of the occupier, so they used any means possible to drive the occupier out. so the occupation and israel's unwillingness to accept a just peace deal is one of the main reasons why we're witnessing this ongoing violent cycle.

[Jack Weber]

this incident and the future incidents are a result of the occupation and israel's policy towards the palestinians.

almost all occupiers have received resistance in one form or another. you can go back to before the creation of israel when the british occupied palestine. jewish militant (terrorist) groups killed civilians as a tactic to fight against the occupier. just like the palestinian today, the jewish militants could not match the weapons of the occupier, so they used any means possible to drive the occupier out. so the occupation and israel's unwillingness to accept a just peace deal is one of the main reasons why we're witnessing this ongoing violent cycle.

Yeah...That's it....

It's all about the Palestinian issue...

It would'nt be that the fact that the state of Israel exists and that many of the Arabs in the region find that to be an afront to their ethnic sensibilities???

That would'nt be the root of the isue,would it???

Let's say the Palestininan issue is solved to the Palestinian,and your,satisfaction...

Do you think the Islamofascist attacks on Israel will magically stop?

Edited April 1, 2011 by Jack Weber

[Bonam]

this incident and the future incidents are a result of the occupation and israel's policy towards the palestinians.

Whether true or not, that is still entirely beside the point. The reality today is what it is. And, regardless of the history, Israel still has an obligation to ensure, to the best of its ability, the safety of its citizens.

[bud]

There's a difference between "justification" and "the way things are;" the first is trying to make excuses while the second is accepting the reality. So no, it can't be used by those who shoot rockets and blow up buses with the intent of killing civilians. Which, in case you truly missed it, is celebrated, not regretted. Because their intent is realized when civilians die.

You tell me how someone else feels while I say no one knows how another person feels but I'm the one who needs to stop with the bs. I can see why you would need to believe that Natanyahu doesn't have any regret, though, or need to try to push the idea that he doesn't, because you couldn't make the false/misleading claims that you do otherwise. But you truly do make yourself look ignorant when you present your beliefs as facts.

why don't you deal with natanyahu's own admissions in this video, where he openly admits that he has deceived the u.s., his strategy to kill or stall any process towards a palestinian state and his policy to inflict maximum carnage:

now tell me that this man genuinely regrets the loss of the civilian lives. listen carefully, (or read, if you don't speak hebrew) because rarely you will see the truth coming out of natanyahu's mouth.

[Guest American Woman]

why don't you deal with natanyahu's own admissions in this video, where he openly admits that he has deceived the u.s., his strategy to kill or stall any process towards a palestinian state and his policy to inflict maximum carnage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TG0vdzrmt4

now tell me that this man genuinely regrets the loss of the civilian lives. listen carefully, (or read, if you don't speak hebrew) because rarely you will see the truth coming out of natanyahu's mouth.

Give me a break. a thousand times over.

[Jonsa]

You're attributing statements and perspectives to me I've never made.

For starters, I never said there wasn't an occupation, only that Gaza isn't occupied (and it isn't). Moreover, the occupation of Judea and Samaria is very "soft", with plenty of autonomy given the the Palestinians.

Well, you can continue to claim that Gaza isn't occupied. However, according to the hague and Geneva conventions and the case law surrounding them, Gaza remains occupied. You know Israel is a signatory of those conventions and that teh Israeli Supreme court has stated that the precepts of international law are intrinsic in the laws of Israel. Hmmmm.

A "soft" occupation. Like the palestinians should consider themselves lucky Israel is such a magnanimous occupier.

I'm mean really why on earth would these ungrateful wretches want liberty and freedom and the right to self determination. Granted they aren't going about trying to achieve those human rights with the best strategy, but to arrogantly excuse occupation by calling it "soft" is churlish.

The issue of Arab occupation in Israel was to illustrate the politicized nature of the term "occupation" with respect to the Israel/Arab conflict. They certainly do occupy a lot of land, largely existing in the economic and social black market, and almost exclusively give their political support to anti-Semitic/anti-Zionist Arab political parties. Don't expect me to love this group of people who are largely a fifth column and hostile to fundamental Israeli/Jewish national interests.

Almost exclusively give their vote to who? Surely you aren't complaining that arab citizens vote for parties that represent their interests? Are you trying to tell me that Hadash is anti-semitic and anti-zionist - they're socialists and include both jews and arabs? Or is the fact that the United Arab List is so vocal about equal rights for arab Israeli citizens making them both anti-semitic and anti-zoinist? Or perhaps Ta'al who was so vehemently against Operation Cast lead and who had to get the Supreme Court to overturn the knesset's ban? Or perhaps Balad, who fights hard for equality for arab citizens?

In 2009 54% of the arab population voted or roughly 525,000 ballots. The arab parties garnered roughly 310,000 votes, Who did the other 215,000 arabs exclusively vote for?

I never said "all Arabs want to kill Jews". What I do recognize, however, after the hundreds and hundreds of hours I've spent learning about Arab/Muslim perspectives of Israel, is the massive amount of hostility among them. Metaphorically speaking, the torch of anti-Semitism burns brightest among the Arabs and Muslims in today's world. Of this there can be no debate.

There's a massive amount of hostility in virtually every minority group who do not have equal rights, equal opportunity or equal access to services, (or at least the perception of equal rights) in their own country. Here its the first nations. Take your pick of blacks or hispanics in american ghettos. Wouldn't want to be a turk in Germany.

I acknowledge that the most vocal anti-semitism arises from the muslim world.

With respect to Arab children, I didn't say they were automatically guilty. What I did say was that they are not automatically innocent as most media outlets would lead you to believe. What is never reported is how children are utilized in the terrorist infrastructure.

anyone that has followed the conflict is well aware of the role that children play in support the gangs of terrorist thugs that dominate palestinian nieghbourhoods.

Why are children not tried in adult court? A child is easily influenced. given the culture, they might even look up to the thugs who have a certain stature in the community, they cannot determine the consequences of their actions and certainly are not equiped to actually make political determinations.

Infants and toddlers and pre-adolescents are innocent, period.

As far as beefs with the Israeli government, I certainly have my fair share. My beefs with the Israeli government, however, certainly do not include describing it as "right-wing" or "aggressive" or "hardline". Current and previous Israeli government always operate with great hesitancy out of fear of political attacks from the USA, EU, UN, et al.

Well, it would appear as though your reluctance to describe the Israeli government as "right wing" is not shared by the ruling party of this coalition who proudly pronounce themselves to be right wing. I guess you missed that whole Likud Kadima split as Sharon wanted to take a more centerist position.

With respect to "land for peace"/removal of settlements for peace, it is largely a joke. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it as long as I keep hearing this bullshit about settlements being a core issue - the Arabs and Muslims were murdering us and waging war against us many decades before the Six-Day War. Were they opposing settlements in 1967, 1954, or 1948? What about the pogroms in the Palestinian Mandate and Arab/Muslim countries decades leading up to 1948? Were they opposing the occupation then? When you can explain that to me, then I'll explain "land-for-peace" with you.

You can dismiss the fact that the vast majority of Israelis AND Palestinians consider the settlements to be a core issue - you are entitled to your opinion.

I have not attempted to justify arab actions against the zionist jews prior to 48 nor the subsequent wars and political maneouverings.

The pogroms of the mandate were a direct result of zionist influx into palestine and their loudly stated intentions of creating the nation of Israel. Kinda pisses off the native population, wot?

Those arab/muslim countries' pogroms occurred after 48 and were a direct result of the "occupation" of palestine by Israel. (tht is the establishment of Israel itself).

I acknowledge that all Islamist groups wish to see the destruction of Israel or as they so euphemistically state "the liberation of all of historic palestine".

However, it is my opinion that when the day comes that a palestinian nation is established in peaceful co-existence with Israel, the belligerence of the other arab/muslim countries will be vastly reduced. Of course, If nutbar regimes like Iran still exist, it won't make any difference to them.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Jonsa

[Jonsa]

No, I'm not stupid, which is why I'm not so ignorant as to claim to know what others feel/don't feel. Your "they don't give a shit because they did it" line of thought is ludicrous. People sometimes do things they would rather not do. I repeat. Your insistence that "they don't give a shit" based on "because they did it" speaks more of you than of them, and means nothing in reality.

In the end, the fact that they knew they were going to kill innocent children didn't deter them in the slightest. So I'll revise my statement. They may or may not have given a shit, but they killed those kids.

No. The "intent" was to kill the target. If no one else was in the building, the building would be bombed, the target would be killed, and that would be good. If the "intent" was to kill civilians too, only killing the target would mean failure because they intended to kill civilians, too.

The intent was to kill everyone in the building, to ensure that they killed the target. A 1 ton bomb is indiscriminant.

There was no intent to kill civilians in any instance. When one "intends" to do something, one does not have regret when it happens. One is pleased that their "intent" was accomplished. Show me one instance of Israel being pleased that civilians were killed in an attack. Show me one instance of Israel being disappointed that civilians/more civilians weren't killed.

The title of this thread is flat out misleading. Israel did not target civilians, intend to kill civilians, in response to terrorism, even though terrorism does target civilians.

One doesn't have regrets if they intended an action? NONSENSE. Talk to soldiers returning from combat. They intended to kill the enemy and some have regrets and nightmares for the rest of their lives.

I have never once said that Israel deliberately targets civilians.

I claim that incidents like the one we are discussing demonstrates that Israel is totally prepared to kill any number of civilians to kill their designated target. Like just about every other nation in a war.

[DogOnPorch]

The pogroms of the mandate were a direct result of zionist influx into palestine and their loudly stated intentions of creating the nation of Israel. Kinda pisses off the native population, wot?

Often ignored is the 10s of thousands of Allied casualties it took for Arabs to enjoy the luxury of 'nationalism'. British, Australian and New Zealanders for the most part.

[bud]

Give me a break. a thousand times over.

i'm not going to give you a break. if you want to make stupid comments, i will call you on them.

you questioned whether i or anyone else would know if natanyahu is deceitful or being genuine when he says he regrets that deaths of civilians and i showed you a video where natanyahu shows he is deceitful. of course, he thought the cameras were off when truth started coming out of his mouth.

an honest person would not need this video to be proven that natanyahu is a lying sack of sh*t. all you have to do is listen to what he says and then watch what he does.

[Oleg Bach]

Funny how Jewish liberalism is all for being against racism..but they seem to like to exclude anyone that is not a family member.

[Guest American Woman]

i'm not going to give you a break.

I didn't think anyone would be given a break from your dishonest posts, but it was worth a try.

you questioned whether i or anyone else would know if natanyahu is deceitful or being genuine when he says he regrets that deaths of civilians and i showed you a video where natanyahu shows he is deceitful. of course, he thought the cameras were off when truth started coming out of his mouth.

I didn't "question" it at all. There is nothing to question. I said you have no idea what he thinks/feels. You can't put yourself inside his head. The only way you would know that he didn't care about civilian deaths is if he said he didn't care about civilian deaths, and he has never said any such thing; and that includes in your video. He did not say what you claim he said. Furthermore, if you think there's a politician on this planet who doesn't speak differently when the camera is on them, if you think there is or ever has been a politician who hasn't said anything 'deceitful' when the cameras aren't on them, you're pretty ignorant of what goes on in the real world of politics.

an honest person would not need this video to be proven that natanyahu is a lying sack of sh*t. all you have to do is listen to what he says and then watch what he does.

An honest person would not post the misleading/altered/B.S. that you post, or claim to know what goes on inside another's head, but fortunately intelligent people don't fall for it; they call you on it and roll their eyes knowing that you'll continue pushing your agenda by whatever means you feel necessary.

Case in point. Your video. Netanyahu doesn't say what you claim he said at all. The He says nothing about "carnage." Even the translation in the video is deceptive. He is speaking of "the Arabs" who "are currently focusing a war of terror," and speaks of how Israel must "hit them." That's what he says. "The main thing, first of all, is to hit them." Then [the Palestinians] is added, in brackets, as if that's what he said/was talking about. Obviously he was not speaking of Palestinian civilians but of "the Arabs currently focusing a war of terror." Unless you think that the Palestinian civilians fall into that category? He then goes on to speak about the Palestinian Authority, ie: the government, which we all know is NOT the same as "Palestinians;" we've certainly heard a thousand times that "the U.S. government" and "Americans" are two very different things. And even when speaking of the Palestinian Authority there is nothing about "carnage" or killing.

But do keep pushing your agenda/BS. Perhaps there are some out there who are falling for it. At least you can always hope .........

[Oleg Bach]

BC is a pretty smart and informed cookie. BUT - he is what America is...what surprises me is how damned informed he is about us..It is really not very American of him to be intelligent...but I suspect this man was or was or is at one time CIA..not that I have anything against a Central Intelligence gathering orgainzation...It's just that it gatheres information selectively...and the honour factor seems to have disappeared...There was a time when the CIA was good for it's word...operatives and informants trusted the orgainzation - and people were willing to talk. Maybe these guys double crossed and lied to the wrong people for to long and now no one even if paid wants to deal with America on even a supposedly tacit level. It appears that every foreign policy decision is half baked....might be because - they are boxing in the dark.

[DogOnPorch]

USN, not CIA.

[Bob]

I didn't think anyone would be given a break from your dishonest posts, but it was worth a try.

I didn't "question" it at all. There is nothing to question. I said you have no idea what he thinks/feels. You can't put yourself inside his head. The only way you would know that he didn't care about civilian deaths is if he said he didn't care about civilian deaths, and he has never said any such thing; and that includes in your video. He did not say what you claim he said. Furthermore, if you think there's a politician on this planet who doesn't speak differently when the camera is on them, if you think there is or ever has been a politician who hasn't said anything 'deceitful' when the cameras aren't on them, you're pretty ignorant of what goes on in the real world of politics.

An honest person would not post the misleading/altered/B.S. that you post, or claim to know what goes on inside another's head, but fortunately intelligent people don't fall for it; they call you on it and roll their eyes knowing that you'll continue pushing your agenda by whatever means you feel necessary.

Case in point. Your video. Netanyahu doesn't say what you claim he said at all. The He says nothing about "carnage." Even the translation in the video is deceptive. He is speaking of "the Arabs" who "are currently focusing a war of terror," and speaks of how Israel must "hit them." That's what he says. "The main thing, first of all, is to hit them." Then [the Palestinians] is added, in brackets, as if that's what he said/was talking about. Obviously he was not speaking of Palestinian civilians but of "the Arabs currently focusing a war of terror." Unless you think that the Palestinian civilians fall into that category? He then goes on to speak about the Palestinian Authority, ie: the government, which we all know is NOT the same as "Palestinians;" we've certainly heard a thousand times that "the U.S. government" and "Americans" are two very different things. And even when speaking of the Palestinian Authority there is nothing about "carnage" or killing.

But do keep pushing your agenda/BS. Perhaps there are some out there who are falling for it. At least you can always hope .........

Exactly. I lost patience with bud a long time ago. Literally every post he makes is filled with misrepresentations, just as he's misrepresenting this video in this most recent sequence of posts. He's certainly one of the most dishonest people to post in this forum.

As far as the video is concerned, it should be seen as an example of how different things are in Israel when compared to Canada and the USA, from top to bottom. It's a much more informal country and culture, much much much more down-to-earth than is generally the case in Canada and the USA. Although I'm not a huge fan of Netanyahu, it's always endearing to see politicians simply be real. It humanizes them. Yes, I've seen the videos of American Presidents and Canadian Prime Ministers getting their shmooze on with the locals, but it doesn't seem the same. Maybe they really do have the cameras off when they have more intimate meetings with ordinary folks and we never get to see them in their comfort zone.

[Bob]

Funny how Jewish liberalism is all for being against racism..but they seem to like to exclude anyone that is not a family member.

What in the world are you talking about? Who's excluding who?

[Oleg Bach]

USN, not CIA.

What is this U S N ................

[Oleg Bach]

What in the world are you talking about? Who's excluding who?

Israel should be open for all...all should be welcomed to visit or live in this old holy place. If you are not Jewish - you are not as fully welcomed as you might like to be...of course Judaism is exclusive - and they do exclude.

[DogOnPorch]

[Oleg Bach]

Yah - I remember...but what did he do in the navy.......certainly he did not wash the decks.