Jump to content

Muslim murders entire Jewish family!


Recommended Posts

Being an atheist doesn't make you not a Jew. It is more a matter of descent. To the Nazis, being a son of Jews would have been enough to have you gassed. To anti-semites, being the son of Jews is enough for you to be hated. And to Israel, being the son of Jews is enough for you to qualify for the right of return as a Jew. Now, you may choose not to self-identify as a Jew, but you can't get away from being what you are. Politically incorrect as the notion may seem, anyone who cares to notice such things can probably tell just by your nose.

Not buying it. If my parents considered themselves Christians, and I consider myself an atheist, and I still a Christian?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 191
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Not buying it. If my parents considered themselves Christians, and I consider myself an atheist, and I still a Christian?

This is a common Anglo misconception. Being a Jew is not the same type of thing as being a Christian. Judaism is a religion, but Jewishness is not. For Ashkenazi Jews, it is closer to a racial identity than a religious one. In that light, your question is meaningless. If your parents were black, and you are an atheist, are you still black? Yes, you are. The two have nothing to do with each other.

We've been over this dozens of times on these forums.

English is simply a language improperly equipped to make the distinction. English has two separate words: Arab and Muslim. One refers to ethnicity, one to religion. Some Westerners may fail to see that distinction as well, but it exists. Another more familiar distinction: White and Christian. Not the same thing at all. For Jews, English has just one word: Jew, whether referring to religion or ethnicity. This is because in the history of England, almost everyone who was racially Jewish was also a follower of Judaism, hence there was no need to differentiate. Today, many Jews are atheists, and English has not kept up. On the contrary, many eastern European languages have two specific terms for Jews: one denoting the racial identity, the other the religious one. This is because many Jews in those areas were converted to Christianity, but were nonetheless considered racially Jewish, and the language developed terms to mark this distinction. Often, one (or sometimes both) of those terms became derogatory and is no longer in frequent use. So your confusion is understandable in that light, as a lingual limitation. In short, one does not need to follow Judaism to be a Jew. A person can be an atheist Jew, a Christian Jew, a Muslim Jew, etc. Israel and America have millions of Jews that consider themselves atheists or agnostics. Much like Jonsa, and myself.

The first two sentences of the wikipedia article on "Jew" state:

The Jews, also known as the Jewish people, are a nation and ethnoreligious group originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation

Hopefully that clears things up for you.

Edited by Bonam
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a cherished component of the rhetorical arsenal.

Bob's gone over this sort of issue as well, and delineated the phenomenon of Jews who are essentially goyim wannabes.

In the course of these discussions, he attempted to parse out the distinctions between Good Jew and Bad Jew--a formulation with, historically, a rather unpalatable pedigree, and which makes me surprised anyone would wish to resurrect it.

I think we now see which camp you belong to, Jonsa.

Well, I was right. I've had many of these types of conversations, and I had a strong feeling that there were specific reasons why Jonsa described himself the way he did. Remember, what he didn't say was just as important as what he did say - he didn't simply say "I'm Jewish", but rather, that he descends from Jews. This is typical of people who choose to separate themselves from Judaism. It somewhat explains Jonsa's connection to the issues surrounding Israel, however. If it weren't for his familial ties, he'd probably be as clueless about Israel and the Jewish people as you (I don't fault you for that, by the way).

It's also interesting to note that his description of himself as the descendent of Jews was enough for you to describe him as Jewish. He doesn't identify himself as Jewish, but that didn't stop you from labelling him as Jewish. Perhaps you view Jewishness as primarily racial, as does Bonam (a view I largely reject with very good reason), and therefore the descendent of Jews is therefore Jewish. Notice how I wasn't so quick to acknowledge Jonsa as a Jewish person, which he isn't really.

I will not define someone else for them, but rather allow them to define themselves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's also interesting to note that his description of himself as the descendent of Jews was enough for you to describe him as Jewish.

True.

He doesn't identify himself as Jewish, but that didn't stop you from labelling him as Jewish.

No, I made an assumption.

Perhaps you view Jewishness as primarily racial, as does Bonam (a view I largely reject with very good reason), and therefore the descendent of Jews is therefore Jewish.

No, I don't.

I will not define someone else for them, but rather allow them to define themselves.

Except as anti-semites and vermin.

Edited by bloodyminded
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a common Anglo misconception. Being a Jew is not the same type of thing as being a Christian. Judaism is a religion, but Jewishness is not. For Ashkenazi Jews, it is closer to a racial identity than a religious one. In that light, your question is meaningless. If your parents were black, and you are an atheist, are you still black? Yes, you are. The two have nothing to do with each other.

I know this line of argumentation, I've seen it many times. While there are certainly many Jewish ethnic subgroups with varying degrees of genetic commonalities due to "staying together" or many years, being Jewish isn't as racial as being black. Indeed, even the term "black", on a broad level, is certainly not a cohesive racial/ethnic group. There are way too many variations. I think the concept of race/ethnicity needs to be taken with a grain of salt, and this is certainly true of the Jewish people with all of our many subgroups. Are you the same racial identity as a Yemenite Jew? What about Beta Yisrael Jews from Ethiopia? They're part of the Jewish family as well, but of a very different race/ethnicity. The glue that connects certainly isn't blood.

I think Jewish identity is primarily cultural/religious and secondarily racial/ethnic. The reason we have an ethnic/racial component to our people is simply because we tended to stay together over the thousands of years we've been around, all around the world, forming various subgroups within the broader Jewish family - this obviously explains why we have many different Jewish "looks" that many of us are familiar with.

We've been over this dozens of times on these forums.

Sorry for beating a beat horse.

English is simply a language improperly equipped to make the distinction. English has two separate words: Arab and Muslim. One refers to ethnicity, one to religion. Some Westerners may fail to see that distinction as well, but it exists.

These two concepts, though, Arab and Muslim, have a lot of overlap. Very often one leads into the other and vice versa. Yes, Arab and Muslim are not interchangeable terms and do not mean the same thing, but they often go hand in hand. This is true about Judaism being cultural/religious on the one hand, while ethnic/racial on the other. Of course there are many exceptions (converts to Judaism, or children of mixed marriages, as examples), but I am speaking about common trends and not outliers.

Another more familiar distinction: White and Christian. Not the same thing at all. For Jews, English has just one word: Jew, whether referring to religion or ethnicity. This is because in the history of England, almost everyone who was racially Jewish was also a follower of Judaism, hence there was no need to differentiate. Today, many Jews are atheists, and English has not kept up. On the contrary, many eastern European languages have two specific terms for Jews: one denoting the racial identity, the other the religious one. This is because many Jews in those areas were converted to Christianity, but were nonetheless considered racially Jewish, and the language developed terms to mark this distinction. Often, one (or sometimes both) of those terms became derogatory and is no longer in frequent use. So your confusion is understandable in that light, as a lingual limitation. In short, one does not need to follow Judaism to be a Jew. A person can be an atheist Jew, a Christian Jew, a Muslim Jew, etc. Israel and America have millions of Jews that consider themselves atheists or agnostics. Much like Jonsa, and myself.

English has kept up, and Jonsa explained himself and his identity, relatively speaking, in English. He doesn't consider to be Jewish, but has a Jewish connection via his family. I think if anybody is going to define Jonsa, it will be Jonsa himself and not you or I.

The first two sentences of the wikipedia article on "Jew" state:

The Jews, also known as the Jewish people, are a nation and ethnoreligious group originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation

Hopefully that clears things up for you.

Jewishness is primarily cultural and religious. If someone converts to Judaism, is he not as Jewish as you or I by virtue of having a different bloodline? Yes, he will be somewhat different and there's no question that he will likely never COMPLETELY be the same as those of us who were born and raised Jewish. Still, Jewish identity isn't dependent on blood. The other side of that coin is a person who is born and perhaps even raised Jewish who chooses to reject Jewishness. Just because someone's last name is Finkelstein doesn't make them Jewish. I feel that labelling on racial/ethnic is dangerous, as it simply doesn't account for the massive heterogeneity of the Jewish people. We are so, so, so diverse ethnically and racially that it's silly to define us as a cohesive race/ethnicity, without taking into account the plethora of subgroups. It's also a tool used by anti-Semites to utilize "Jews" to further their propaganda. I'll use the Finkelstein example again as an illustration of that, a man who willingly allows himself to be used as a tool of anti-Semitism, as deranged as that is considering his heritage.

In summary, yes there are ethnic/racial components to various subgroups within the broader the Jewish family. But how important is that in most situations of living in a free and pluralistic society? It only matters when dealing with anti-Semitism, for example someone is out to get you because you have a Jewish surname. Just because your last name is Rosenberg and you may look like Ben Stiller doesn't really mean that much if that's where your Jewishness begins and ends. On the other hand, someone who stays connected by educating himself about Jewish history and culture and religion is actually living and breathing his/her identity - that has a much more profound impact on his/her life and those around him/her than someone who is simply Jewish by virtue of a parent or grandparent (kinda like Jonsa). Jonsa, and virtually everyone else, have a right to define themselves in their own way. I take the opposite perspective from you - Judaism is much more cultural/religious than it is racial. If it's just about our racial subgroups - why care about the Jewish people or Judaism?

Last note, although paradoxical in the religious sense, I recognize that a person can be atheistic and still be Jewish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yet you also said this:

Being an atheist doesn't make you not a Jew. It is more a matter of descent. To the Nazis, being a son of Jews would have been enough to have you gassed. To anti-semites, being the son of Jews is enough for you to be hated. And to Israel, being the son of Jews is enough for you to qualify for the right of return as a Jew. Now, you may choose not to self-identify as a Jew, but you can't get away from being what you are. Politically incorrect as the notion may seem, anyone who cares to notice such things can probably tell just by your nose.

Matter of descent?

You one of those idiots who think that jews are a race?

I could give a shit what fucked up nazi thinking might label me.

My mother wasn't a jew so by the religion, I am not a jew.

Goosestep back under the rock you just climbed out from under.

Edited by Jonsa
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Matter of descent?

You one of those idiots who think that jews are a race?

We are privileged, as a quasi-race, to lose babies to Tay-Sachs Disease and Canavan Disease. Enough said?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We are privileged, as a quasi-race, to lose babies to Tay-Sachs Disease and Canavan Disease. Enough said?

Not even remotely close to enough.

You mean a genetically recessive gene carried down through generations of a religious group that frowned on inter-marriage.

"French Canadians of southeastern Quebec have a carrier frequency similar to Ashkenazi Jews, but they carry a different mutation. Many Cajuns of southern Louisiana carry the same mutation that is most common in Ashkenazi Jews."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay%E2%80%93Sachs_disease.

Although Canavan disease may occur in any ethnic group, it affects persons of Eastern European Jewish ancestry more frequently. About 1/40 individuals of Eastern European (Ashkenazi) Jewish ancestry are carriers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canavan_disease

So are only Ashkenazi jews part of this ersatz quasi race of yours? Let's forget about those damn Sephardics and don't get me started on the Ethopians!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not buying it. If my parents considered themselves Christians, and I consider myself an atheist, and I still a Christian?

Eichmann would have thought so...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Nuremberg_laws.jpg

Edited by DogOnPorch
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Matter of descent?

You one of those idiots who think that jews are a race?

If by idiots you mean people from just about any European country that has had a significant Jewish population throughout history, then yes. I happen to know which ethnic group I am a member of. My old Russian passport says "nationality: Jew" on it.

Here's another example. When I was working as an intern at the Canadian Space Agency, we had a big group of students there and we all introduced ourselves and people said where they were from and such initially. Lot's of Chinese, Koreans, Canadians, etc. Well, being originally from Russia, I said that I was "Russian". Turns out there was an actual Russian there, he looked at me for a moment, and then proclaimed: "you are not Russian, you have Jewish blood". I don't think he was any kind of anti-Semite, he was pretty friendly to me afterwards, but to him the idea of someone ethnically Jewish to identify themselves as being of Russian nationality just didn't make sense.

It's funny, any Russian, east European, German, etc, instantly tells by looking at me that I am a Jew. But Canadians and Americans have no idea and are always surprised when/if it comes up in a conversation that I am of Jewish descent. And that includes American and Canadian Jews. Most of them really don't think of themselves as a race/ethnicity. And that's fine, so long as they realize that a big chunk of the world's population would still instantly tell them apart as members of a different ethnic group with physically visible distinguishing characteristics.

I could give a shit what fucked up nazi thinking might label me.

Yes, you don't have to worry about it, so long as you don't encounter anyone who actually has that "nazi thinking". Given that probably hundreds of millions of people worldwide have a deep seated hatred of Jews, however, it might not always be so irrelevant in your life as you might hope it to be. If you've never paused to think of yourself as a Jew before, you should consider for a moment what it would mean for you if people who hate Jews and would consider you a Jew based on the fact that you have a Jewish parent and grandparents gained power or influence in our society or in the world.

My mother wasn't a jew so by the religion, I am not a jew.

Again, religion is only one component of Jewish identity. What do you consider an atheist child of two Jewish parents? Answer: an atheist Jew. There is more to Jewish identity than religion.

So are only Ashkenazi jews part of this ersatz quasi race of yours? Let's forget about those damn Sephardics and don't get me started on the Ethopians!

Again, remember the definition: "ethnoreligious group". The Jews are a collection of ethnicities. Those ethnicities include Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi, and others. This is exactly like other broad racial categories like "white" which can be broken down into narrower ethnic classifications like Slavs, Germans, Scandinavians, French, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Essentially a redux of the "One Drop Rule"...

Funny that,huh?

Pretty much, eh? No exceptions. Which is why when Borman's office put out a rumor that Heydrich was 1/8th Jewish, or something like that, it caused such a stir.

That chart (plus its bureaucracy) and executive control of the rail system and you have a party in the making. The SS went so far as to rent tourist class rail carriages to send most of the German Jews to the East. Avoided panic.

So, no matter what Mr Jonsa would have thought at the time re: being Jewish, those with the guns, trains and camps will have different ideas on the concept. Heck, I showed you where simply being related by marriage to Jews got you shipped to the East.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's funny, any Russian, east European, German, etc, instantly tells by looking at me that I am a Jew. But Canadians and Americans have no idea and are always surprised when/if it comes up in a conversation that I am of Jewish descent. And that includes American and Canadian Jews.

I know exactly what you mean. For the most part, in-touch North American Jews should be able to see distinguishable characteristics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again, religion is only one component of Jewish identity. What do you consider an atheist child of two Jewish parents? Answer: an atheist Jew. There is more to Jewish identity than religion.

Really? what would you say are the other components of being Jewish?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pretty much, eh? No exceptions. Which is why when Borman's office put out a rumor that Heydrich was 1/8th Jewish, or something like that, it caused such a stir.

That chart (plus its bureaucracy) and executive control of the rail system and you have a party in the making. The SS went so far as to rent tourist class rail carriages to send most of the German Jews to the East. Avoided panic.

So, no matter what Mr Jonsa would have thought at the time re: being Jewish, those with the guns, trains and camps will have different ideas on the concept. Heck, I showed you where simply being related by marriage to Jews got you shipped to the East.

Like I said before. I don't give a shit about all that nazi garbage.

It provides an excellent history lesson, but is relevant in today's world only as a warning of the evil that man can achieve - "Never Again".

I am well aware that in those days I would have been a candidate for transportation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 7 months later...

Of course you'll ignore my statement - because you're a tribalist who happens to be Jewish. "Your people" do not have the same capacity for extremism or violence because, "your people" are different and better, because we're Chosen.

Admittedly it was inflammatory, but it was to make a point - we clearly have a double standard if we can easily call Muslims who want to impose Muslim law and scripture on daily life and politics "extremists" but Jews who have the same desires aren't. Those efforts manifest in different ways given historical, religious, economic and political contexts - but the desire is the same: basic human morality goes out the window, no commitment to international law, and the only thing that matters is what you think your scripture says.

The problem with those people predates Islam. From the events at Sodom and Gomorrah, to the contrast between G-d's conduct at the binding of Isaac with the child sacrifice (nowadays suicide bombing using adolescents) of the surrounding peoples to the conduct of the Amelkites, the Jews have always occupied a higher moral plane. Not perfect, but higher.

So therefor: "Jews are apes and pigs, we should wipe them off the face of the earth" or "Arabs are barbarians with bloodlust for our people, God gave us Greater Israel, they have no right to it, we will take it from them by any means necessary"

Have the Arabs done anything to break the hereinafter mentioned cycle?

For the record, the cycle of violence and reprisals go back so long I don't really blame any one side for starting it, especially since both sides have enough blood on their hands by now. However that doesn't mean that there aren't specific places and times where one side has backed off, and even done the right thing, and the other side has been incapable of following suit and tried to keep the cycle going.

Again, why is noone conditioning the request for Israel to cede land on the stopping of Arab violence? The answer is that everyone knows that Arab violence cannot really stop.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Tell a friend

    Love Repolitics.com - Political Discussion Forums? Tell a friend!
  • Member Statistics

    • Total Members
      10,714
    • Most Online
      1,403

    Newest Member
    wopsas
    Joined
  • Recent Achievements

    • Jeary earned a badge
      One Month Later
    • Venandi went up a rank
      Apprentice
    • Gaétan earned a badge
      Very Popular
    • Dictatords earned a badge
      First Post
    • babetteteets earned a badge
      One Year In
  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...